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[congokong]

For the longest time I assumed that the mages were somehow being brainwashed the way the red templars are; supported by Fiona's odd behavior in Redcliffe as if her mind had been messed with. I couldn't believe they'd voluntarily follow a bloody darkspawn. Upon research it appears they were just conscripted and so felt compelled to slaughter everyone at Haven. I've always taken the templar path for many reasons and felt sad about them being corrupted without them even knowing it on the mage path, but this makes the templar decision even easier to pick. They only invade Redcliffe when they're thralls of Corypheus, while the mages voluntarily attack; including Fiona.

 

 

 

BTW, can anyone explain what happened with Fiona in Val Royeux? There's a theory it was an imposter, yet I thought mages could sense demons. That would also contradict the imposter Seeker Lucius as well though.

[Digger1967]

Pissing contest to begin immediately, followed by cocktails and a snack tray in the lounge promptly at 7.  Lol

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The mages were brainwashed. And even ignoring that they have no say in the matter since they are slaves of the Venatori.

There were also Templars who joined the Red Templars voluntarily.

 

In short, both sides consist of people who want to be there and people who have no choice but to be there.

 

As for Fiona in Val Royeaux, that is her from the timeline that would have happened had Alexius not gone back in time and "saved" them.

[Digger1967]

Oh, ok, on a more serious note, the reason the Fiona you meet in Redcliffe doesn't remember talking to you in Val Royeaux is that technically she never did. The Fiona that meets you in Val Royeaux and asks you to come to Redcliffe is the same Fiona, but she doesn't remember the meeting because by the time you get to Redcliffe Alexius has gone back in time, arrived in Redcliffe before Fiona goes to Val Royeaux to meet you, convinces her to ally with Travintor so in that timeline Fiona doesn't go to meet you.  As a result she doesn't remember the meeting because for her, it never took place.  Alexius changed the past.

 

It is kind of interesting that you still remember the meeting taking place but she doesn't, and I'm sure you could really mess yourself up pretty badly thinking about all the possible ramifications of that little wrinkle, but it's just one of the many reasons why time travel makes such a ****** poor plot device.  Just my humble opinion of course.. lol

[Boost32]

The mages were brainwashed. And even ignoring that they have no say in the matter since they are slaves of the Venatori.

There were also Templars who joined the Red Templars voluntarily.

In short, both sides consist of people who want to be there and people who have no choice but to be there.

Show me one in game proof that they were brainwashed.

And they had a choice, the uncorrupted templars choose it, some rebel choose it, the others were too cowards to choose it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Show me one in game proof that they were brainwashed.

You mean other than the mages who didn't want to engage in any further conflict engaging in a war with the Inquisition?

[Vilio1]

The mages were mind-controlled. They didn't attack voluntarily.

[congokong]

The mages were brainwashed. And even ignoring that they have no say in the matter since they are slaves of the Venatori.

There were also Templars who joined the Red Templars voluntarily.

 

They weren't; at least if Dragon Age Wiki and my experience with the game is any indicator. That's what I find repulsive about recruiting the mages. That they'd voluntarily slaughter everyone at Haven to "save themselves." Sure, the red templars have a few nutters like Samson. I have no idea how or why that lyrium junkie ever got put back into any position of influence among the templars. I never once suggested he be reinstated in DA2.

 

Oh, ok, on a more serious note, the reason the Fiona you meet in Redcliffe doesn't remember talking to you in Val Royeaux is that technically she never did. The Fiona that meets you in Val Royeaux and asks you to come to Redcliffe is the same Fiona, but she doesn't remember the meeting because by the time you get to Redcliffe Alexius has gone back in time, arrived in Redcliffe before Fiona goes to Val Royeaux to meet you, convinces her to ally with Travintor so in that timeline Fiona doesn't go to meet you.  As a result she doesn't remember the meeting because for her, it never took place.  Alexius changed the past.

 

It is kind of interesting that you still remember the meeting taking place but she doesn't, and I'm sure you could really mess yourself up pretty badly thinking about all the possible ramifications of that little wrinkle, but it's just one of the many reasons why time travel makes such a ****** poor plot device.  Just my humble opinion of course.. lol

 

I think there's a way time travel can make sense ...in theory. It's too complex to explain here though. I'll say the obvious though: why didn't Alexius just go and kill the herald beforehand instead of going to Redcliffe, or something else far more certain of victory? Bioware should just stay away from time travel.

[Boost32]

You mean other than the mages who didn't want to engage in any further conflict engage in a war with the Inquisition?

Thats no proof, they could be threatened, they could be convinced to attack or they could be brainwashed, but there is no proof.

And your avatar remember me of Lilly Satou, almost made me cry, even with the happy ending.

The mages were mind-controlled. They didn't attack voluntarily.

If you are so sure, just show me were its was mentioned they were being mind-controlled.

[Boost32]

They weren't; at least if Dragon Age Wiki and my experience with the game is any indicator. That's what I find repulsive about recruiting the mages. That they'd voluntarily slaughter everyone at Haven to "save themselves." Sure, the red templars have a few nutters like Samson. I have no idea how or why that lyrium junkie ever got put back into any position of influence among the templars. I never once suggested he be reinstated in DA2.
 

 
I think there's a way time travel can make sense ...in theory. It's too complex to explain here though. I'll say the obvious though: why didn't Alexius just go and kill the herald beforehand instead of going to Redcliffe, or something else far more certain of victory? Bioware should just stay away from time travel.

You shouldnt trust the wiki, a few weeks ago they were brainwashed.

[congokong]

Since people are doubting the mages were conscripted rather than brainwashed...

 

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Venatori

 

If the Inquisition recruits the Templars:

With the aid of the unsuspecting Arl of West Hill; Gallagher Wulff, the Venatori are able to boost their numbers by conscripting the rebel mages. Gereon Alexius is disposed of by the Elder One for his failure to undo the events of the conclave. With the Red Templars weakened by their failure to corrupt the Templars billeted at Therinfal Redoubt, Corypheus elects to use the Venatori to assault Haven and crush the Inquisition in retaliation for sealing the breach. Led by Calpernia, the Venatori attack Haven en masse. Grand Enchanter Fiona confronts the Herald of Andraste personally in an attempt to prevent them from firing the inner trebuchets but is slain. Haven is destroyed and the Venatori score a decisive victory over the Inquisition although the Herald escapes along with many villagers and some Inquisition troops.

[congokong]

You shouldnt trust the wiki, a few weeks ago they were brainwashed.

I don't trust it completely but I never heard any proof in-game to contradict it that the mages were brainwashed nor how it would happen. With the templars they were ingesting red lyrium. It was plainly stated.

[Boost32]

I don't trust it completely but I never heard any proof in-game to contradict it that the mages were brainwashed nor how it would happen. With the templars they were ingesting red lyrium. It was plainly stated.

I do agree with you, Im just saying that you shouldnt link it as a proof, for example the wiki says Fiona joined the Venatori, but the rebel mages only joins the Venatori if you sided with the templars, a Dorian dialogue with Bull says how they were "recruited" into the Venaori's ranks and it can only occurs if you do Champion of the Just.

Spoiler

Iron Bull: I guess the Vints will be pissed with you after warning everyone at Haven.
Dorian: Not that my warning did much good.
Iron Bull: Didn't see any rebel mages coming to do it.
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.
Iron Bull: Ah, see? Good on you. Way to join the underdogs.
Dorian: I'm thrilled, really.

[Digger1967]

I don't remember anything specifically in game directly on point for the mages at Redcliffe, but I do recall that in the Western approach the Venatori mage makes mention of the ritual given to the Grey Warden mages to use had the side effect of making them mind controlled slaves.

 

I do remember Dorian talking about the Alexius distorting time to arrive in Redcliffe before you, and he notes that the alliance was "as if by magic, yes?  Which is exactly right".  It really isn't crystal clear that he's talking about the time travel here, it could be inferred that Fiona's decision to conscript herself and her fellow rebels to Alexius is what he is referring too.

 

That would make sense, they've already demonstrated that they have at least one form of mind control that works on mages and that they had no compunction against using it to recruit the grey wardens.  It would also explain why Fiona would be so quick to sign off on such a deal rather than waiting and investigating other options first.  I mean you later learn she's not only a mage, former grand enchanter but a former grey warden as well.  It's not like she was some helpless babe in the woods so for me it seems reasonable that some form of mental manipulation must have been involved somewhere.  I find it difficult to believe Alexius got her to sign herself and all of her fellow mages into indentured servitude in that short a period of time using nothing but negotiation.

 

Does it really matter that much?  Eh.. no not really.  A lot of folks on the mage side made bad choices. So did a lot of Templars, and a lot of Grey Wardens.. more than enough bad decisions to go around really.  Of course if not, well the Inquisition wouldn't be nearly as necessary, now would it?

 

Ok, just my two cents worth.  Back to the regularly scheduled cat fight.  Enjoy

[SgtSteel91]

I believe they were enthralled to Corypheus but even if they weren't it's more like they forced by the Venatori into attacking Haven as conscripted slaves. They were practically forced into becoming slaves by the Venatori's manipulations without the Inquisition's help. It sucks for both sides to fall under Coryphues but I feel for the Mages more. A lot of bad stuff happens to them and I just want to help them more than the Templars.

[Boost32]

I believe they were enthralled to Corypheus but even if they weren't it more like they bullied by the Venatori into attacking Haven as slaves. They were practically forces into becoming slaves by the Venatori's manipulations without the Inquisition's help. It sucks for both sides to fall under Coryphues but I feel for the Mages more. A lot of bad stuff happens to them and I just want to help them more than the Templars.

If they were enthralled why the Venatori millie the ones who didnt want to join them? Wouldnt it be easier to just control them? And Dorian never says anything about mind control or brainwash.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Didn't superdark pos a link with a dev saying he guide was canon? And wasn't that pro-circle Mage in the tavern the same one who you meet in the torture chambers in the Redcliffe mission? Or the elf Mage who is mentally broken

[congokong]

I do agree with you, Im just saying that you shouldnt link it as a proof, for example the wiki says Fiona joined the Venatori, but the rebel mages only joins the Venatori if you sided with the templars, a Dorian dialogue with Bull says how they were "recruited" into the Venaori's ranks and it can only occurs if you do Champion of the Just.
 

I'm unsure what part of the Wiki you're referring to. Under her bio in "affiliations" it lists Venatori as "conditional."

[Boost32]

I'm unsure what part of the Wiki you're referring to. Under her bio in "affiliations" it lists Venatori as "conditional."

They changed it? A few days ago it wasnt conditional.

Didn't superdark pos a link with a dev saying he guide was canon? And wasn't that pro-circle Mage in the tavern the same one who you meet in the torture chambers in the Redcliffe mission? Or the elf Mage who is mentally broken

Patrick said he didnt know, and he assumed the guide might be correct, but it would be better to ask Gaider. In no way its a confirmation.

[congokong]

They changed it? A few days ago it wasnt conditional.

Even if it didn't would that matter? On some sites they list any possible affiliations under affiliations.

[SgtSteel91]

I can't believe Fiona, the one who didn't want her people to become part of Tevinter's army when Alexius brings it up, who says she doesn't want her people involved with the Corypheus' plan to become a God and revive Tevinter to take over the world when Alexius talks about it, who hates Darkspawn and wouldn't serve one especially after her encounter with the Architect in The Calling (she was one of the few people in the book who was fully against allying with the Architect), would just agree to attack Haven unless she was brainwashed or broken into a mindless attack drone by the Venatori.

 

I think her even agreeing to the deal if kind of OOC for her since she was a sex slave for most of her childhood.

[TK514]

Didn't superdark pos a link with a dev saying he guide was canon?

 

Nope, he said he assumed so if it was in the guide, but didn't really know and to ask Gaider.

 

Of course, if anyone had actually posted screenshots and a location of this supposed codex entry, and if it said what certain people claim, this debate would have ended already.  Rather telling that they haven't produced anything yet.

[SgtSteel91]

How come the Grey Wardens and the Templars are manipulated/brainwashed into working for Corypheus but the Mages are the only ones who appear to just go with it? It's not fair for the supposed 'Grey' debate of Mages v Templars and whether Mages should be free or not.

[Boost32]

How come the Grey Wardens and the Templars are manipulated/brainwashed into working for Corypheus but the Mages are the only ones who appear to just go with it? It's not fair for the supposed 'Grey' debate of Mages v Templars and whether Mages should be free or not.

Because we saw the Grey Wardens mages being mind controlled and we know the red lyrium corrupt the mind of the user, made them agressive, paranoid and in some cases change the into monsters.
But nowhere its stated they were brainwashed, its a rumor started by a guide full of errors and made by a third party.

[SgtSteel91]

The Grey Wardens, Templars, and Mages are given false information (the Calling it totally happening guys, Red Lyrium is totally not bad guys, Templars are totally coming to kill you guys) and for the Wardens and Mages, manipulated into thinking they are forced into a corner with impending death (the Calling and Templars that are totally going to kill you soon) so that they would make a hasty decision and indadvertedly help Corypheus. They all seem similar to me but the Mages are the ones getting **** and Fiona getting called a fool when Clarel is just as guilty of accepting help from a Magister.