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[Boost32]

The Grey Wardens, Templars, and Mages are given false information (the Calling it totally happening guys, Red Lyrium is totally not bad guys, Templars are totally coming to kill you guys) and for the Wardens and Mages, manipulated into thinking they are forced into a corner with impending death (the Calling and Templars that are totally going to kill you soon) so that they would make a hasty decision and indadvertedly help Corypheus. They all seem similar to me but the Mages are the ones getting **** and Fiona getting called a fool when Clarel is just as guilty of accepting help from a Magister.

Clarel doesnt get any hate for a few motives, she repent her mistakes, helps you and she died to protect you.
Fiona doesnt repent her mistakes and even try to justify it, she does nothing, just stay complaining about your choices in the library and its impossible to punish her if you think she is guilty.

[TK514]

How come the Grey Wardens and the Templars are manipulated/brainwashed into working for Corypheus but the Mages are the only ones who appear to just go with it? It's not fair for the supposed 'Grey' debate of Mages v Templars and whether Mages should be free or not.

 

The Grey Warden mages are explicitly stated to be mind controlled by the demon summoning ritual.  The Templars are not, to my knowledge, brainwashed or mind controlled to start down their path, beyond the norm for a military organization with a rigid chain of command.  They are corrupted by Red Lyrium, similiar to Meredith only worse, and thus beholden to their addiction and its side effects.  As far as I can tell, their leadership made that decision willingly, and the rank and file who didn't escape that plot are victims.

 

As far as the game tells us, the Mages simply made one bad decision after another, starting with following Fiona.  Some of them are obviously victims of circumstance.  They may not agree with what is going on, but when everyone else seems to be doing something, and your only other choice looks like running off into the wilderness and getting eaten by a bear, maybe you just go along and hope you can stand in the back until its over.  But there doesn't appear to be any actual magical control happening.  Particularly highlighted by Fiona completely folding with a whimper on the 'every one of you slaves is going to fight on the front lines' issue while the Inquisitor looks on.  Given that games tend to use singular scenes as a stand-in for larger trends, it isn't much of a leap to decide that, when the time came, Alexius gave her another tongue lashing regarding Haven and she folded again.

[SgtSteel91]

There may not have been brainwashing, but to me Fiona and the Mages were manipulated and practically forced into accepting Alexius' help and I can't fault or punish them for making the choice they did in such extreme circumstances. Especially when Fiona originally went to you first, offering an alliance before Alexius retcon'ed that meeting out. I don't think this is the norm for them just like it isn't the norm for Templars to start taking Red Lyrium or Wardens to summon a Demon army.

[TK514]

Ultimately, the one thing that can be said unequivocably about all three organizations is that they suffered from terrible leadership decisions.

[SgtSteel91]

Ultimately, the one thing that can be said unequivocably about all three organizations is that they suffered from terrible leadership decisions.

 

And I think if you give them a second chance, they get their act together and turn their organization around.

[SerBlacky]

As for Fiona in Val Royeaux, that is her from the timeline that would have happened had Alexius not gone back in time and "saved" them.

You see, my head is already hurting with that phrasing I really wish the mage plot didn't include time travel.

[Eliastion]

I can't believe Fiona, the one who didn't want her people to become part of Tevinter's army when Alexius brings it up, who says she doesn't want her people involved with the Corypheus' plan to become a God and revive Tevinter to take over the world when Alexius talks about it, who hates Darkspawn and wouldn't serve one especially after her encounter with the Architect in The Calling (she was one of the few people in the book who was fully against allying with the Architect), would just agree to attack Haven unless she was brainwashed or broken into a mindless attack drone by the Venatori.
 
I think her even agreeing to the deal if kind of OOC for her since she was a sex slave for most of her childhood.

I think you miss the crucial part. She was molded over some more time and some of "her" mages were actually agents AND they were fed false information by an idiot Fereldan noble (arl or bann, I can't recall atm)... Basically, she was scared into accepting the deal that got pretty much altered later (that or a very fine print thing ) while remaining (along with other mages) under Tevene influence and in fabricated "situation" for quite some time already.
I still think she caught the infamous Idiot Ball, but she was being manipulated in more than one way at once. Then she made a deal. Then they kicked out Taegan. Which was quite a smart move by Alexius for a couple reasons, seizing control is one thing, but antagonizing Ferelden is another. When Fiona relaized they were pretty much conscripted to fight someone's war it was already too late - they REALLY had no friends anymore. Ferelden was hostile or soon to become hostile, Temolars were somewhere there even if the threat wasn't as big as she was led to believe, they already "allied" with enemy of the Inquisition and in then there were also real Alexius's subordinates there, taking control...
They were in a pretty desperate position. If we are to believe Dorian, some managed to run away, others were killed in the attempt. And Alexius in the all-too-well-known manner of "I altered the deal, pray that I don't alter it any further" were pretty much the only option other than (possibly fatal) attempt at escaping to become a fugitive in the world where the mage rebellion lost. That's pretty much the situation Fiona was in. Run and abandon her people or grit her teeth and attack fledgeling Inquisition HQ (note that while there was this Haven village part, Haven can hardly be called a civilian target at that point of time).
Basically, while it is all somewhat... far-fetched and Fiona did apparently not only get possession of but actually swallowed an Idiot ball, this doesn't really require mind-control to have a bunch of scared people pressed into military service and added to an army walking to take out some enemy outpost.
In fact, I don't think even Templars were at that point completely insane or mind-controlled. "Look, Inquisition allied with rebel mages, let's purge them" - for Templars even without their minds clouded in significant way that would sound sensible. After all, they broke off of the Chantry to hunt Rebel Mages. Now they go hunt Rebel Mages and their allies - allies who actually were already condemned by Chantry as heretics so even the more pro-Chantry of the rebel Templars could feel the warmth of doing Maker's will with Chantry approval...
I don't say Red Lyrium didn't drive them insane eventually, but I don't think that was really the central issue at that point. Though it likely helped a bit.
 
 

Clarel doesnt get any hate for a few motives, she repent her mistakes, helps you and she died to protect you.
Fiona doesnt repent her mistakes and even try to justify it, she does nothing, just stay complaining about your choices in the library and its impossible to punish her if you think she is guilty.

While I don't necessarily agree with some the things you say here, I think you are spot-on here. It's not that people hate Fiona for her stupid mistakes, even less - for her motives. The problem is, that she makes terrible decisions that make many people (including those she should protect) suffer... and if you side with the mages, she pretty much gets away with it. She doesn't earn redemption by death, she doesn't even break under weight of her mistakes and you can't punish her in any way. She doesn't really do anything that could earn her Player's sympathy back and many players (me included though I really am pro-mage in all this mess) can't shake off a distaste that this idiot, despite all the disastrous mistakes she's done and drawn her people into, pretty much wins if you side with the mages. The only defeat she suffers is possible depending on the Divine later on... but that's - again - the mages paying the price, not Fiona personally.
I don't say I would definitely opt to punish Fiona given the chance. But I would want the option of letting her go to be an unprecedented act of mercy, not a goddamned default I can do nothing about! It's like her mistakes literally can't catch up to her if you side with mages. And that's making people hate her so much. That's what makes me hate her. And I'm someone who spared (and never hated) Loghain on my first DA:O playthrough despite no knowledge of his background. I just played a merciful Warden. But I COULD punish him. Not punishing was something done after acknowledging his guilt and despite it. Fiona? Fiona is left as the leader of the mages and everyone - Inquisitor included - is somehow ok with it.
It doesn't surprise me one bit that people are furious and let their steam off on BSN.

[Dean_the_Young]

There may not have been brainwashing, but to me Fiona and the Mages were manipulated and practically forced into accepting Alexius' help

 

Hardly.

 

Manipulated, sure- but falling for weak lies is a damning, not mitigating, factor. But the choice to trade one security patron for another who had no credible way to protect them in Redcliffe was their own decision.
 

 

and I can't fault or punish them for making the choice they did in such extreme circumstances.

 

Fortunately, that's what tribunals and magistrates are for. Judgeing and holding people accountable for their choices, even in or despite the perception of extreme circumstances.

[Carmen_Willow]

For the longest time I assumed that the mages were somehow being brainwashed the way the red templars are; supported by Fiona's odd behavior in Redcliffe as if her mind had been messed with. I couldn't believe they'd voluntarily follow a bloody darkspawn. Upon research it appears they were just conscripted and so felt compelled to slaughter everyone at Haven. I've always taken the templar path for many reasons and felt sad about them being corrupted without them even knowing it on the mage path, but this makes the templar decision even easier to pick. They only invade Redcliffe when they're thralls of Corypheus, while the mages voluntarily attack; including Fiona.

 

 

 

BTW, can anyone explain what happened with Fiona in Val Royeux? There's a theory it was an imposter, yet I thought mages could sense demons. That would also contradict the imposter Seeker Lucius as well though.

Look, if you've lived as a virtual prisoner for most of your life, you are going to unconsciously respond to authoritative rule. Yes, there would be exceptions, like Anders, but for the most part, that mentality, that learned helplessness in the face of authoritative power would have been built in to the majority of mages long before adulthood. There is a REASON the Jesuits said, "Give us a child until he is seven and he is ours for life." That kind of training in early childhood would be extremely hard to overcome. Now, imagine that the authority you have know most of your life is suddenly gone and there is nothing taking its place except Fiona. Consciously or not, you would feel uncomfortable until someone with AUTHORITY stepped in and told you what to do. Why do you think that the ancient Hebrews had to wander in the desert until the entire generation who had lived under slavery had passed away? It was because they could never be truly psychologically free. Only their children, born in relative freedom could achieve that.  It doesn't even take a lifetime to push people into this mindset. Zimbardo, a psychologist did it with an experiment in only a few days, with college kids.  This is the reason why I seldom recruit the mages. Yes, the Templars are military and authoritative, but they usually get to be the ones who are proactive and able to adapt, improvise and overcome.

[Digger1967]

They weren't; at least if Dragon Age Wiki and my experience with the game is any indicator. That's what I find repulsive about recruiting the mages. That they'd voluntarily slaughter everyone at Haven to "save themselves." Sure, the red templars have a few nutters like Samson. I have no idea how or why that lyrium junkie ever got put back into any position of influence among the templars. I never once suggested he be reinstated in DA2.

 

 

I think there's a way time travel can make sense ...in theory. It's too complex to explain here though. I'll say the obvious though: why didn't Alexius just go and kill the herald beforehand instead of going to Redcliffe, or something else far more certain of victory? Bioware should just stay away from time travel.

 

So if Alexius had been really smart about the whole thing he could have just gone back in time and killed my mom before I was even born. Huh. that sounds familiar somehow..

[Boost32]

So if Alexius had been really smart about the whole thing he could have just gone back in time and killed my mom before I was even born. Huh. that sounds familiar somehow..

Because the time travel only work if the Breach exist, its not possible to go before it existed.

[Ashagar]

For a long time I assumed that it was only the Templars who put up a fight and got massacred, as the attack by the red Templars on the Templars that happens when you do champions of the just happens regardless of  wither the inquisition shows up there but apparently Doran has a conversation that apparently some of the mages tried to resist or flee  but got killed then the rest fell in line.

 

Admitedly that's far less than the Templars did as the templars fought to the death resisting the red Templars instead of giving in but its better than nothing I guess. 

[SgtSteel91]

The Templars fighting back only happens if you do Champions of the Just. If you don't they never know they were being corrupted and the ones who fell ill to the Red Lyrium were executed, as said in the war table mission to Investigate Therinfal Redoutb.

 

Hardly.

 

Manipulated, sure- but falling for weak lies is a damning, not mitigating, factor. But the choice to trade one security patron for another who had no credible way to protect them in Redcliffe was their own decision.
 

Fortunately, that's what tribunals and magistrates are for. Judgeing and holding people accountable for their choices, even in or despite the perception of extreme circumstances.

 

It wasn't just the lie. Alexius timed his appearance nearly right after the Conclave explodes, where most likely people were blaming Mages for the explosion and their refuge in Redcliff would have been in question. For all they knew, the Templars could have marched at that moment and Redcliff would have let them have the Mages. It's compounded by alienating their allies in Fereldan by forcing Arl Tegan out of his castle and getting Arl Wulf to help him as well as seeding Fiona's group with Venatori agents to push her into taking the deal. This was literally an offer she couldn't refuse, and if she did refuse it then Alexius had Time Magic to do it over and try as many plans as it took to get her and the Mages under his control.

 

The Inquisitor is the one giving the judgements and everyone goes along with what they say. As such, I say Fiona and the Redcliff Mages are innocent with what happened at Redcliff and the blame is on Alexius, the Venatori, and Corypheus. You can say otherwise, and that's just fine cause it doesn't affect me or how I play the game at all.

[Digger1967]

You see, my head is already hurting with that phrasing I really wish the mage plot didn't include time travel.

 

You and me both my friend.  I think it's on of those, well anyone got any good ideas for a plot we can use?  No?  Ok, lets just dust off something stupid and use time travel...

[Addai]

Upon research it appears they were just conscripted and so felt compelled to slaughter everyone at Haven.

It's ambiguous. There are those in the forum who will swear that that means the mages attacked Haven without mind control, even though the entirety of the Grey Warden mages were put under mind control spells and Dorian suggests otherwise. But that's mage-templar on the BSN for you.

[thesuperdarkone2]

It's ambiguous. There are those in the forum who will swear that that means the mages attacked Haven without mind control, even though the entirety of the Grey Warden mages were put under mind control spells and Dorian suggests otherwise. But that's mage-templar on the BSN for you.

Don't forget how even Patrick Weekes supports using the guide which says the mages are brainwashed. I'm more willing to trust a person who actually wrote the story as opposed to some random nobody on BSN

[Ashagar]

The Templars fighting back only happens if you do Champions of the Just. If you don't they never know they were being corrupted and the ones who fell ill to the Red Lyrium were executed, as said in the war table mission to Investigate Therinfal Redoutb.

 

 

That's one way to view but as the red Templar knight captain said the questioning knights had to be purged and it is confirmed by talking to Sir Barris even before the attack that the uncorrupted knights were already questioning what was going on which gives me reason to believe that regardless that the purge happens.

[Eliastion]

Don't forget how even Patrick Weekes supports using the guide which says the mages are brainwashed. I'm more willing to trust a person who actually wrote the story as opposed to some random nobody on BSN

The problem is that "brainwashed" itself isn't a precise term when you have magic. It could be magic, but I'd say that when you have:
1. Best possible timing
2. Relatively numerous agents among the populace you're trying to manipulate
3. High-ranking noble from benefactor country feeding false information to push mages into alliance with Tevinter
I'd say someone could call it brainwashing even if there is no mind-control magic involved.

Though, admittedly, it's not that far-fetched to think that Venatori mages did indeed affect minds of a couple mages considered the most important. But I do believe that if such intervention did take place, it would be more about subtle "hints" aimed at selected people. I don't believe in widespread magical mind-manipulation.


Also, as for the "weak lie", we know that the mages were manipulated not only by Alexius himself but also by his agents (so they were misinformed from the inside) and by a Fereldan Arl. They could be lied about what the Fereldan Crown thinks of the current situation. After the Breach, considering what Alexius had at his disposal, it really seems that convincing Fiona that Ferelden considers turning them over to the Templars (if only by non-action when the latter make their move) wouldn't be that big of a stretch. Especially since Venatori allies apparently already controlled some Templars - so presenting Templar threat as more pressing than it was could even involve some actual Templars...
While Fiona was an idiot, that doesn't change the fact that it was not as if Alexius just came to them and said "hey, Templears are coming, submit to the Tevinter".

[SgtSteel91]

I can't call Fiona or the rest of the Mages idiots for being pushed into a corner and manipulated into thinking their only options were to get themselves killed, or worse, by Templars or become free people in Tevinter after 10 years of being indentured servants, before Alexius changes the terms of the deal.

 

I also don't think the decision was solely Fiona's. I mean she never rebelled until the Circle voted no matter how much she wanted to. There was probably a vote whether to take their chances with the Templars or Alexius and the vote swung to Alexius (one that was skewed with Venatori agents posing as Mage refugees).

[Lady Artifice]

 I'm still not a big fan of the term "brainwashing," and it seems especially inaccurate when it comes to what's being described in the mind control theory. 

 

And as far as this particular debate goes, I don't see how either side can be certain. 

[Eliastion]

I'm still not a big fan of the term "brainwashing," and it seems especially inaccurate when it comes to what's being described in the mind control theory. 
 
And as far as this particular debate goes, I don't see how either side can be certain.

Well, "brainwashing" is an overused term in general, that's for sure
But it's a bit beyond the point here, I just wanted to clarify that the term "brainwashing" isn't necessarily synonymous with direct magical interference with anyone's mind.

[TK514]

And I think if you give them a second chance, they get their act together and turn their organization around.

 

Two of the three have leadership that show remorse and accept responsibility for their shortcomings and the shortcomings of their organizations.

 

And then there's Fiona, who accepts no responsibility, shows no remorse, and says she'd do it all again.

[SgtSteel91]

Two of the three have leadership that show remorse and accept responsibility for their shortcomings and the shortcomings of their organizations.

 

And then there's Fiona, who accepts no responsibility, shows no remorse, and says she'd do it all again.

 

The way she words it, the decision to accept Alexius' help was a collective decision of the Redcliff Mages. Which makes sense for her, she never rebelled until the vote to break away from the Chantry was actually passed. When she says that she means she'd start the rebellion again. She regrets accepting Alexius help and tries to say that they never meant for what happened to Redcliff happen to Fereldan's ruler. Especially if Alistair is King because now she probably lost any chance of connecting to him as his mother because of the decision. She says it was a mistake to accept Alexius' help when you conscript the Mages and says she's not proud of their choice later on. She looks pissed off just being near the guy so she doesn't like the situation she's in. You tell her that the Mages are on 'probation,' even as allies, and she accepts that it's for the best. And she focuses on making sure the Mages work well with the Inquisition whether you conscript of ally with them. She gives you the location of Mage holdouts as allies or tries to plea with the Inquisitor to show mercy to Mages trying to escape their imprisonment.

[congokong]

I can understand the concept of "learned helplessness" and being backed into a corner playing a huge part in the mages willfully marching to butcher everyone including women and children at Haven, but that doesn't excuse it in my mind. In comparison to the mages, I find far more sympathy for the templars who become actual thralls to Corypheus.

 

 

How could the mages think following a darkspawn to slaughter innocents would ever end remotely well for them?

[thesuperdarkone2]

I can understand the concept of "learned helplessness" and being backed into a corner playing a huge part in the mages willfully marching to butcher everyone including women and children at Haven, but that doesn't excuse it in my mind. In comparison to the mages, I find far more sympathy for the templars who become actual thralls to Corypheus.

 

 

How could the mages think following a darkspawn to slaughter innocents would ever end remotely well for them?

Do you really think when the truth was revealed that the mages could just leave the Venatori if they weren't brainwashed?