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[Eliastion]

I can understand the concept of "learned helplessness" and being backed into a corner playing a huge part in the mages willfully marching to butcher everyone including women and children at Haven, but that doesn't excuse it in my mind. In comparison to the mages, I find far more sympathy for the templars who become actual thralls to Corypheus.
 
 
How could the mages think following a darkspawn to slaughter innocents would ever end remotely well for them?

First of all, let's set one thing straight. Two things. Haven is a small village turned by Inquisition into their HQ. It's hardly a civilian target anymore. I'd say most civilians there are actually actively working for the Inquisition. It's a military base with some civilian personnel and perhaps a couple civilians caught in the crossfire. Making it into a slaughter of an innocent village is a ridiculous notion.
Then there is this second part. Mages from Redcliffe were used to bolster ranks of Venatori. They pretty much were the magical equivalent of a bunch of commoners pressed into military service, put into an army and marched to battle. With attempts at desertion punishable by death. They shouldn't have let themselves be maneuvered into this situation in the first place, but once they were in the "alliance" and Venatori appeared more openly, expecting indentured refugee mages to refuse (on moral grounds, no less) the order of attack on a military base of "benefactor's" enemy when the alternative to following orders is death...
Sorry to say but your expectations are not of the reasonable sort here.

[SgtSteel91]

Then again some Mages believed the Inquisition were Templars by another name and the Inquisition going out and getting actual Templars to join them doesn't help the Inquisition's image in the eyes of those Mages.

[Boost32]

Then again some Mages believed the Inquisition were Templars by another name and the Inquisition going out and getting actual Templars to join them doesn't help the Inquisition's image in the eyes of those Mages.

And because of this its ok to attack them?

[SgtSteel91]

Considering some people's reaction to their situation would be to call them stupid, abandon them, and recruit their oppressors, I wouldn't be surprised if those Mages who were wary of the Inquisition before would think that the Inquisition was going to attack them and are now their enemy.

[Eliastion]

And because of this its ok to attack them?

And why not? It's a war. They got outmaneuvered by Alexius and ended up conscripted to fight his war, but the perspective of geting Tevinter citizenship was not revoked for all we know. So, why should they resist (and get killed) or desert (and likely get killed in the process) because they were ordered to attack (along with Cory's army) a base of the enemy who they fought this whole damn mage-templar war against? I seriously managed to forget that this takes place after Inquisition takes Templars in. In this situation Alexius can pretty much tell them something along the lines of: oh, you though tour service to Tevinter was supposed to be sorting books in library? Too bad. Here is the Tevene army, now you're part of it. Let's start by taking out the Templar threat now.
Why exactly would they throw their lives away (armies don't like deserters or new soldiers refusing to follow orders) to not take part in this operation?
Some would be scared and/or would feel cheated enough to try and run for it (or protest), sure. But why would all of them do it? Even the more idealistic ones - they were just pretty much given a chance of getting rid of the main Templar force, making world better for those mages they will live behind when they themselves (hopefully) depart to Tevinter at some point?
The one good argument against going along with it is that Cory looks REALLY ugly (sounds not all that convincing but I'm serious, it's quite clear there's something very wrong with this guy; so yeah, when he shows his face, I would expect a sudden spike in desertion rate. But other than that?).

While I do believe Fiona to be an idiot and (despite all - recounted by me in some previous post - arguments why it wasn't just a "weak lie") while I do think Mages got manipulated too easily... it doesn't change the fact that I REALLY can't see how anyone can blame them specifically for the fact that most of them obeyed the order to march on Haven with Venatori.

[Boost32]

And why not? It's a war. They got outmaneuvered by Alexius and ended up conscripted to fight his war, but the perspective of geting Tevinter citizenship was not revoked for all we know. So, why should they resist (and get killed) or desert (and likely get killed in the process) because they were ordered to attack (along with Cory's army) a base of the enemy who they fought this whole damn mage-templar war against? I seriously managed to forget that this takes place after Inquisition takes Templars in. In this situation Alexius can pretty much tell them something along the lines of: oh, you though tour service to Tevinter was supposed to be sorting books in library? Too bad. Here is the Tevene army, now you're part of it. Let's start by taking out the Templar threat now.Why exactly would they throw their lives away (armies don't like deserters or new soldiers refusing to follow orders) to not take part in this operation?Some would be scared and/or would feel cheated enough to try and run for it (or protest), sure. But why would all of them do it? Even the more idealistic ones - they were just pretty much given a chance of getting rid of the main Templar force, making world better for those mages they will live behind when they themselves (hopefully) depart to Tevinter at some point?The one good argument against going along with it is that Cory looks REALLY ugly (sounds not all that convincing but I'm serious, it's quite clear there's something very wrong with this guy; so yeah, when he shows his face, I would expect a sudden spike in desertion rate. But other than that?).While I do believe Fiona to be an idiot and (despite all - recounted by me in some previous post - arguments why it wasn't just a "weak lie") while I do think Mages got manipulated too easily... it doesn't change the fact that I REALLY can't see how anyone can blame them specifically for the fact that most of them obeyed the order to march on Haven with Venatori.

There is no more war, the Inquisition was not planning to attack anyone, if they dont have spies or scout to tell them, they should have not gone to war in the first place.
Corypheus killed Alexius for his failure, so the mages werent anymore conscripts of Tevinter, they were serving a Darkspawn magister who dont hide that he entered the Golden City and brought the Bligtht upon this land.
If you cant see how bad this idea is, theres nothing more to say.

[Lumix19]

Didn't we already have this discussion? I thought someone was going to find that note about the Venatori binding the minds of the rebel mages...

[Eliastion]

There is no more war, the Inquisition was not planning to attack anyone, if they dont have spies or scout to tell them, they should have not gone to war in the first place.

The war never ended, Summit was supposed to bring peace but as you might've noticed, it ended in rather unexpected way. And Inquisition just either allied with Templars or took them in.

Corypheus killed Alexius for his failure, so the mages werent anymore conscripts of Tevinter, they were serving a Darkspawn magister who dont hide that he entered the Golden City and brought the Bligtht upon this land.
If you cant see how bad this idea is, theres nothing more to say.

Of course they are conscripts of Tevinter - Venatori were "Tevinter's representatives" to begin with. Alexius was killed at some point but mages were not leashed to him personally. They probably responded to Calaphernia by that point.
And the assumption that they are completely aware of what Corypheus is and what he intends is... a risky one.

[Eliastion]

Didn't we already have this discussion? I thought someone was going to find that note about the Venatori binding the minds of the rebel mages...

I don't think such a note exists, I've certainly never saw one. There was something about "brainwashing" from semi-official source (not the game itself) and this can mean pretty much anything as the term is (over)used very loosely, especially when it comes to fiction.

[Lumix19]

I don't think such a note exists, I've certainly never saw one. There was something about "brainwashing" from semi-official source (not the game itself) and this can mean pretty much anything as the term is (over)used very loosely, especially when it comes to fiction.

It was from this thread http://forum.bioware...nwashing/page-2

Urthemiel wrote up what he could remember about a note though it's unconfirmed. Besides I find it highly unlikely that the mages would ally with Corypheus even upon pain of death. Corypheus might not even become a god upon entering the City, he could just as easily destroy the entire planet not to mention he's everything the people of the South have been taught to hate their whole lives.

[Eliastion]

If that note were confirmed, it would likely resolve the dispute (if worded similarly to what Urthemiel wrote). Unfortunately, I tend to be very skeptical when faced with somewhat-remembered-but-not-exactly notes no one else has seen. And when supposedly half-remembered note is presented as, well, a note, complete with signature, that doesn't really boost its credibility for me.

[Boost32]

The war never ended, Summit was supposed to bring peace but as you might've noticed, it ended in rather unexpected way. And Inquisition just either allied with Templars or took them in.Of course they are conscripts of Tevinter - Venatori were "Tevinter's representatives" to begin with. Alexius was killed at some point but mages were not leashed to him personally. They probably responded to Calaphernia by that point.And the assumption that they are completely aware of what Corypheus is and what he intends is... a risky one.

There was no war, the Inquisition brought the templars to its rank or allied with them, the first plan was to close the Breach and, after that, to find those responsible for opening it and even if they were at war their objectives was only to kill the Herald, not to fight against the templars. There was no plan to attack the mages anymore.
And Corypheus went to Redcliff, Dorian say he personally marched from Redcliff to Haven to take out the Herald.

It was from this thread http://forum.bioware...nwashing/page-2
Urthemiel wrote up what he could remember about a note though it's unconfirmed. Besides I find it highly unlikely that the mages would ally with Corypheus even upon pain of death. Corypheus might not even become a god upon entering the City, he could just as easily destroy the entire planet not to mention he's everything the people of the South have been taught to hate their whole lives.

If it existed, he could already found it. Until someone post a screenshot shot and the place to find it, I will not believe in the existence of this codex.

[Eliastion]

There was no war

Just that Mage-Templar war that never ended because the peace talks got blown up.
 

the Inquisition brought the templars to its rank or allied with them

Either way they work together now.
 

the first plan was to close the Breach and, after that, to find those responsible for opening it

And we all know who it was according to Templars - Inquisition's best buddies now.
 

and even if they were at war their objectives was only to kill the Herald, not to fight against the templars. There was no plan to attack the mages anymore.

And how would the rebel mages who allied with Tevinter out of fear of Templars' upcoming attack know that? As you said, it was obvious that the next move after closing the Breach would be finding the guilty ones. Or the next best thing: scapegoats.
That was what mages knew/could expect. Especially with someone whispering it to their ear to encourage the idea (venatori agents posin as their own people, remember?)
 

And Corypheus went to Redcliff, Dorian say he personally marched from Redcliff to Haven to take out the Herald.

You might notice that Dorian was rather well informed about many things, being friends with Felix and personally knowing Alexius. How would the recently-conscripted mages know what was Cory's true goal?

[SerBlacky]

I think the so called noted was found in the Hissing Wastes or maybe in the Korcari wilds? I'm too lazy to roam the Hissing Wastes again to see if its exists.

[Digger1967]

Because the time travel only work if the Breach exist, its not possible to go before it existed.

 

Which makes sense, until you hear one of the red templar commanders talking in a bad austrian accent.  If you ever manage to strike up a conversation with one try to get them to say California.  It's a hoot.

[Ranadiel Marius]

While I do believe Fiona to be an idiot and (despite all - recounted by me in some previous post - arguments why it wasn't just a "weak lie") while I do think Mages got manipulated too easily... it doesn't change the fact that I REALLY can't see how anyone can blame them specifically for the fact that most of them obeyed the order to march on Haven with Venatori.

I am one of the most vocal people when it comes to calling out Fiona's stupidity in the mage plot line set up....and yeah I agree. They were recruited into the TI army and were performing a military operation against people who had allied with their former enemies. It makes sense for them to be jumping at this opportunity to be striking back at the Templars. As long as no one tells them who Cory is (and the Inquisition only knows post-Haven because of Varric and Hawke) them serving willing makes perfect sense. I really don't get why people feel the need yo make up the mind control excuse for the most logical decision the mages make in the game....unless the idea is that it was too intelligent for them?

The problem with the mages (especially Fiona) swallowing the idiot ball comes prior to joining the Venatori not after.

[Digger1967]

Well no matter what side you support what you've got here is a host of bad decisions and "ends justify the means" arguments.  

 

On the mage side Fiona was at the very least duped and had her decisions altered by Time Travel at a minimum.  We don't know what other influence/magic/persuasion might have been brought to force this particular outcome.  If Fiona wasn't subjected to some form of magical influence and came to this decision based on situation, well then lets face it this was about as idiotic as it gets.  Even fearing what might happen to the mages after the conclave explosion you just don't run off and sign yourself into slavery to Travintor in a matter of hours after an event like this - so really mind manipulation magic is the only thing I think that works here, either that or you pretty much have to assume Fiona and her advisers are all morons.

 

On the templar side honestly I find this a bit more confusing.  I'm no expert on the story line here and haven't read any novels, etc.. just what I've picked up in game, but I thought Seekers were immune to being possessed.  So not sure how this thing with the Envy demon and the Lord Seeker is supposed to work, guess that's still a little hazy in my mind.  But there you've got the whole, "we were just following orders" argument from the rank and file.  Maybe a small portion of the top leadership actually understood and was aware of what was going on, who knows.  But of course the "we were just following orders" argument didn't work so well at the Nuremberg trials so still a bit hard to give them a total pass.  Guess it just sort of depends on point of view but really when your leaders start insisting you need to do something you know is way off base, well time to start rethinking your situation.  It also begs the question, just how screwed up is your organization to begin with that your leadership is so messed up in the head they apparently went along with this to begin with?

 

Funny thing is though for all the mage/templar debates that rage I don't think either group even comes close to winning the cupie doll for all time, grand master holy crud that was the dumbest thing I've ever even heard of type decision making.  I think it's really the Wardens here who really went off the deep end.  Ok, so here you are a warden and your leadership comes to you and says, alright, in order to prevent future blight here's what were going to do - were going to engage in a blood magic ritual and get all of us possessed by demons so we can invade the deep roads and kill all off all the old gods.    Anyone who's been a warden for longer than 5 seconds who isn't standing up at this stage and saying, "ok, that's the stupidest plan I've ever heard in my entire life" doesn't deserve the title of warden.  Hell I wouldn't want someone like that being the local dog catcher, much less a warden.  So anyone that signed off on that plan and started the whole blood magic/demon possession/but were doing this for the greater good chain of events - well that goes way beyond delusional.  That sort of stupidity just should never be allowed or tolerated.

[congokong]

First of all, let's set one thing straight. Two things. Haven is a small village turned by Inquisition into their HQ. It's hardly a civilian target anymore. I'd say most civilians there are actually actively working for the Inquisition. It's a military base with some civilian personnel and perhaps a couple civilians caught in the crossfire. Making it into a slaughter of an innocent village is a ridiculous notion.
Then there is this second part. Mages from Redcliffe were used to bolster ranks of Venatori. They pretty much were the magical equivalent of a bunch of commoners pressed into military service, put into an army and marched to battle. With attempts at desertion punishable by death. They shouldn't have let themselves be maneuvered into this situation in the first place, but once they were in the "alliance" and Venatori appeared more openly, expecting indentured refugee mages to refuse (on moral grounds, no less) the order of attack on a military base of "benefactor's" enemy when the alternative to following orders is death...
Sorry to say but your expectations are not of the reasonable sort here.

1. The game constantly emphasizes how refugees flock to Haven. Mother Giselle goes over this greatly.

2. Yes, it's a "kill a bunch of innocent people or die yourself" situation. Most choose to kill others to save themselves based on human history. That doesn't make it right.

 

My argument is that since the mages are attacking out of fear/to save themselves/unwilling to risk deserting a darkspawn instead of being actual thralls like the templars I am more sympathetic towards the templars.

[congokong]

On the templar side honestly I find this a bit more confusing.  I'm no expert on the story line here and haven't read any novels, etc.. just what I've picked up in game, but I thought Seekers were immune to being possessed.  So not sure how this thing with the Envy demon and the Lord Seeker is supposed to work, guess that's still a little hazy in my mind.  But there you've got the whole, "we were just following orders" argument from the rank and file.  Maybe a small portion of the top leadership actually understood and was aware of what was going on, who knows.  But of course the "we were just following orders" argument didn't work so well at the Nuremberg trials so still a bit hard to give them a total pass.  Guess it just sort of depends on point of view but really when your leaders start insisting you need to do something you know is way off base, well time to start rethinking your situation.  It also begs the question, just how screwed up is your organization to begin with that your leadership is so messed up in the head they apparently went along with this to begin with?

Did you play the templar path? Seeker Lucius willingly lets the envy demon impersonate him and corrupt the templars because he becomes disgusted with the Seekers' cause. It's a bit absurd how so many of such high rank are nutters who flock to Corypheus but whatever. I have no idea how Samson the lyrium junkie ever got re-instated; much less promoted.

 

The "just following orders" waiver for atrocities has never been suitable for me. It's why I'm largely anti-military. People need to be held accountable for their own actions and take a stand when something is wrong. Of course when people are threatened with death if they refuse they'll usually go along with it. That's how we got the holocaust. Note: Things like the holocaust and most wars in general would never occur if people followed this view. I know I sound like a big idealist in this post but this is based on what is morally "right" from a Cole POV you might say.

[Eliastion]

I do believe the move was stupid, but I have to point out that you made one baseless assumption:

(...)Even fearing what might happen to the mages after the conclave explosion you just don't run off and sign yourself into slavery to Travintor in a matter of hours after an event like this - so really mind manipulation magic is the only thing I think that works here, either that or you pretty much have to assume Fiona and her advisers are all morons.(...)

Sure, if it was hours after. But it was not. Try weeks or months of "working" on the mages by Alexius, Venatori agents in their ranks and false frients in high-ranking Fereldan nobility (or at least one "friend"). This was neither an easy nor instant decision.
 
And as for Wardens, there was no "possession" part, I think... More like some mind control. Either way, even Clarel didn't know about this.
Not to say that killing each other to summon the demons wasn't ridiculous if anyone thought about it for just a minute. And even if it was not inherently stupid (they're all about end justifying the means) the fact that Clarel didn't investigate the issue enough, willing to perform the ritual even after she became suspicious (which we know from her notes we can find in Adamant)...
Yeah. Good job protecting the world. How did she even manage to pass her Harrowing? Any demon could convince her to let it in willingly, willpower or not...

[TK514]

The Wardens were desperate.  Not, "Oh, I really need that sandwich, I am sooo hungry" desperate, but "If we don't do something, everyone in the world is potentially going to die" desperate.

 

All of them felt the Calling at the same time.  All of them.  So they had reason to believe that, in a very short time, there would be NO Grey Wardens left.  The last time a Blight happened without Grey Wardens, it lasted for centuries, killed millions, and only ended because the Grey Wardens were created.  Without Grey Wardens, as far as we know, there is no way to stop an Archdemon.

 

So given the very real possibility that their Order was about to go extinct, they had to switch from planning about what to do when the Archdemon showed up to how to end the Archdemon threat entirely while they still had a chance.

 

Further, they weren't getting possessed.  They were summoning demons using a powerful new ritual which had the unadvertised (and apparently undetectable) effect of allowing Corypheus (and presumably his henchmen) to control them when the time came to do so.

 

As for the 'just following orders' debate, particularly with regards to the Templars, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with following orders to change equipment.  As far as the rank and file Templars knew at the beginning, switching from regular lyrium to red lyrium was little different than getting issued a higher quality sword or a better pair of boots.  The existence and effects of Red Lyrium were not widely known.  It wasn't until things started getting strange that anyone had reason to start asking questions, and by then it was almost too late.

 

And the Lord Seeker wasn't possessed.  He allowed the Envy Demon to study him so that it could copy him while he was off joining a doomsday cult.

[Eliastion]

1. The game constantly emphasizes how refugees flock to Haven. Mother Giselle goes over this greatly.
2. Yes, it's a "kill a bunch of innocent people or die yourself" situation. Most choose to kill others to save themselves based on human history. That doesn't make it right.

Ok, then perhaps there are refugees (not that I've seen a lot or that it would make much sense for them to go to a village just under the breach in high mountains, but then again, gameplay and Bioware, respectively) - this doesn't change the fact that Haven is first and foremost a HQ of Inquisition. It is explicitly a military operation against Inquisition, not against some defenseless village of Haven and its inhabitants.

[congokong]

The Wardens were desperate.  Not, "Oh, I really need that sandwich, I am sooo hungry" desperate, but "If we don't do something, everyone in the world is potentially going to die" desperate.

 

All of them felt the Calling at the same time.  All of them.  So they had reason to believe that, in a very short time, there would be NO Grey Wardens left.  The last time a Blight happened without Grey Wardens, it lasted for centuries, killed millions, and only ended because the Grey Wardens were created.  Without Grey Wardens, as far as we know, there is no way to stop an Archdemon.

 

So given the very real possibility that their Order was about to go extinct, they had to switch from planning about what to do when the Archdemon showed up to how to end the Archdemon threat entirely while they still had a chance.

 

 

I've argued about the wardens extensively on these boards before...

 

http://forum.bioware...rs-like-duncan/

 

...so I'll try to refrain from going into another deep debate, but the wardens kind of damn themselves and the world with their secrets. They've got a Loghain's interpretation of "necessary" thing going on to justify it. In the case of the joining having the world simply know how/the terms of making Grey Wardens could allow them to simply do it once a blight comes rather than continuing those awful joinings for centuries between them that cut people's lives short if not outright killing them. Hell, as evidenced by DA:O when some of them sense a blight coming no one believes them anyway; distrust earned from their secrets in part.

 

Also, if the wardens had any wits they'd instead ponder why all of a sudden they're all feeling the calling instead of going through with their crazy demon plan.

[Sports72Xtrm]

1. The game constantly emphasizes how refugees flock to Haven. Mother Giselle goes over this greatly.

2. Yes, it's a "kill a bunch of innocent people or die yourself" situation. Most choose to kill others to save themselves based on human history. That doesn't make it right.

 

My argument is that since the mages are attacking out of fear/to save themselves/unwilling to risk deserting a darkspawn instead of being actual thralls like the templars I am more sympathetic towards the templars.

Is it really so black and white considering Dorian and the rebel mages went out of their way to ask your Inquisitor for help and you turn your back on them to recruit the templars? It seems a bit cruel that you be so judgemental of them. It's history for the victors of history to judge the weak but it's a bit cruel as well. It's been that way forever though. I get the Andrew Jackson during Indians and trail of tears vibe from pro-templars.

[thats1evildude]

To be honest, I attribute Fiona's motives for attacking the Inquisitor largely to spite. Regardless of the mucking about with the timeline, she resents being forced to sell her mages into slavery while you recruited the templars into the Inquisition. She comes for you because you sided with the group she hates.

It makes about as much sense as "She was brainwashed."