85 réponses à ce sujet

[Digger1967]

Did you play the templar path? Seeker Lucius willingly lets the envy demon impersonate him and corrupt the templars because he becomes disgusted with the Seekers' cause. It's a bit absurd how so many of such high rank are nutters who flock to Corypheus but whatever. I have no idea how Samson the lyrium junkie ever got re-instated; much less promoted.

 

The "just following orders" waiver for atrocities has never been suitable for me. It's why I'm largely anti-military. People need to be held accountable for their own actions and take a stand when something is wrong. Of course when people are threatened with death if they refuse they'll usually go along with it. That's how we got the holocaust. Note: Things like the holocaust and most wars in general would never occur if people followed this view. I know I sound like a big idealist in this post but this is based on what is morally "right" from a Cole POV you might say.

 

Well I played part of the templar path, haven't gotten to the conclusion there yet - I must have not gotten to this part yet or maybe I missed the dialog portion that mentions this, but I guess I still find this confusing. If Lord Seeker is willing to let the templars be corrupted then why let the envy demon "impersonate" him at all, if he's a willing participant he could just do whatever himself.  The Envy demon becomes superfluous. 

 

Like you I don't think "just following orders" is a reasonable justification either.  And I'm not too keen on some of the actions taken on the mage side of things but man after meeting the tranquil in Redcliffe Tavern and recruiting him I guess I can see what the big deal is to a lot of them - frankly I'd much rather someone kill me than turn me into a zombie like that. Wow. ick. I mean I still recruit the guy but just talking to him makes my skin crawl.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Well I played part of the templar path, haven't gotten to the conclusion there yet - I must have not gotten to this part yet or maybe I missed the dialog portion that mentions this, but I guess I still find this confusing. If Lord Seeker is willing to let the templars be corrupted then why let the envy demon "impersonate" him at all, if he's a willing participant he could just do whatever himself. The Envy demon becomes superfluous.

Like you I don't think "just following orders" is a reasonable justification either. And I'm not too keen on some of the actions taken on the mage side of things but man after meeting the tranquil in Redcliffe Tavern and recruiting him I guess I can see what the big deal is to a lot of them - frankly I'd much rather someone kill me than turn me into a zombie like that. Wow. ick. I mean I still recruit the guy but just talking to him makes my skin crawl.

Because the Lord Seeker has other top secret stuff he is doing, so using the envy demon let's him be in two places at once.

As for "just following orders" that excuse only really applies to them taking the red lyrium (which they don't have any reason to think is an atrocity or war crime). After they take that, they are criminally insane.

[Digger1967]

Because the Lord Seeker has other top secret stuff he is doing, so using the envy demon let's him be in two places at once.

As for "just following orders" that excuse only really applies to them taking the red lyrium (which they don't have any reason to think is an atrocity or war crime). After they take that, they are criminally insane.

 

Sounds like a Lindsey Lohan movie.. rotfl.  Look, were twins!  Plausible, I guess - but of course it does open an entirely new can of worms I'm afraid.  I mean which one is the "evil" twin here?

 

As for the templar thing, well the problems there actually kind of start before the red lyrium.  I mean don't get me wrong, I see your point and I don't disagree with it persee, but really from what I've seen thus far their was a lot of pretty shady stuff going on there even before that stage.  I guess if I as an outsider to the templar order can learn of that much that is amiss then it's a little hard to think that the rank and file knew nothing about what was going on.  I can buy that a lot of them didn't want to believe it - but not that they were completely ignorant of it all.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Sounds like a Lindsey Lohan movie.. rotfl. Look, were twins! Plausible, I guess - but of course it does open an entirely new can of worms I'm afraid. I mean which one is the "evil" twin here?

As for the templar thing, well the problems there actually kind of start before the red lyrium. I mean don't get me wrong, I see your point and I don't disagree with it persee, but really from what I've seen thus far their was a lot of pretty shady stuff going on there even before that stage. I guess if I as an outsider to the templar order can learn of that much that is amiss then it's a little hard to think that the rank and file knew nothing about what was going on. I can buy that a lot of them didn't want to believe it - but not that they were completely ignorant of it all.

Original is the "evil" twin since he is the one who joined a doomsday cult and sacrificed all the other seekers to the cult.

Some of them had suspicions, but they also were having lyrium withdrawal symptoms and only had access to red lyrium. So yeah....the "trap" the Templars walked into was a bit more well thought out than the one sprung on the mages. Plus the Templars admit at the end of their quest admit that they messed up in not noticing what was going on.

[Digger1967]

Original is the "evil" twin since he is the one who joined a doomsday cult and sacrificed all the other seekers to the cult.

Some of them had suspicions, but they also were having lyrium withdrawal symptoms and only had access to red lyrium. So yeah....the "trap" the Templars walked into was a bit more well thought out than the one sprung on the mages. Plus the Templars admit at the end of their quest admit that they messed up in not noticing what was going on.

 

Ok, makes sense on the evil twin thing.  I'm guessing that would be the one with the British accent then too.. lol.

 

I also do like the contrition on the part of the templars, being able to admit you were wrong is always a big plus with me.  I think on the mage side of things though the only thing that makes sense to me is that there is more going on than what you actually learn about in game.  It just makes no sense to me otherwise.

[eyezonlyii]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but to me the biggest head scratcher was Vivienne. For the life of me, I can't see why the mages who were at Recliffe who didn't want to fight for Tevinter, wouldn't leave with the First Enchanter to the Imperial Court, or whatever her title is. In fact you can only convince that one mage in the Crossroads to become an agent if Vivienne is in your party. Heck, there should have been much more interaction between Vivienne and Fiona either in Redcliff or afterward in Haven/Skyhold. A Mass Effect 2 style argument (A la Jack and Miranda) would have been pretty cool. 

[Digger1967]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but to me the biggest head scratcher was Vivienne. For the life of me, I can't see why the mages who were at Recliffe who didn't want to fight for Tevinter, wouldn't leave with the First Enchanter to the Imperial Court, or whatever her title is. In fact you can only convince that one mage in the Crossroads to become an agent if Vivienne is in your party. Heck, there should have been much more interaction between Vivienne and Fiona either in Redcliff or afterward in Haven/Skyhold. A Mass Effect 2 style argument (A la Jack and Miranda) would have been pretty cool. 

 

Well might be an in for a penny, in for a pound sort of deal.  They might fear if they bail on the rebellion now they will be totally hosed, the templars/chantry would take revenge on them for being part of the rebels in the first place.

 

I dunno, lot of problems with both of these plotlines really, the Seeker wasn't possessed but he was replaced but no now he's back again for a companion quest and it must be him because you killed his less evil twin already.... ya... ouch, that makes my head hurt.  The I'm a smart accomplished former warden/grand enchanter/etc etc leader of the mage rebellion but sure, I let this used talisman salesmen from Travintor talk me into the most idiotic deal imaginable and all my advisers signed off on it as well.

 

So yup, afraid I'm going to have to fill in some blanks on my own to make this work and if turns out we get a more official explanation later that fixes some of these holes great, if not, eh.. well as Inquisitor closing those nagging holes is what I do I guess.

 

So, Fiona and crew were influenced by some sort of magic - not total zombie mind control but enough to convince them to do things they wouldn't normally do. Blamo, problem solved.

 

Now, The Lord Seeker.. hmm.. ok, that one's a bit more problematic.  Going to have to give that one some more thought.

[Addai]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but to me the biggest head scratcher was Vivienne. For the life of me, I can't see why the mages who were at Recliffe who didn't want to fight for Tevinter, wouldn't leave with the First Enchanter to the Imperial Court, or whatever her title is. In fact you can only convince that one mage in the Crossroads to become an agent if Vivienne is in your party. Heck, there should have been much more interaction between Vivienne and Fiona either in Redcliff or afterward in Haven/Skyhold. A Mass Effect 2 style argument (A la Jack and Miranda) would have been pretty cool.

Because Vivienne is not as relevant as she claims to be. In the Crossroads, you mean the Enchanter? You can recruit her with Arcane Knowledge perk or if you do her quest.

[Digger1967]

I do believe the move was stupid, but I have to point out that you made one baseless assumption:

Sure, if it was hours after. But it was not. Try weeks or months of "working" on the mages by Alexius, Venatori agents in their ranks and false frients in high-ranking Fereldan nobility (or at least one "friend"). This was neither an easy nor instant decision.
 
And as for Wardens, there was no "possession" part, I think... More like some mind control. Either way, even Clarel didn't know about this.
Not to say that killing each other to summon the demons wasn't ridiculous if anyone thought about it for just a minute. And even if it was not inherently stupid (they're all about end justifying the means) the fact that Clarel didn't investigate the issue enough, willing to perform the ritual even after she became suspicious (which we know from her notes we can find in Adamant)...
Yeah. Good job protecting the world. How did she even manage to pass her Harrowing? Any demon could convince her to let it in willingly, willpower or not...

 

Not really the impression I got from the dialogue.  In talking to Dorian one of your choices you say something to the effect that Alexius altered time to arrive "right after the Divine died".  Also when talking to Fiona one of the primary choices your commenting on how incredibly fast it was that they've already signed themselves over to Travintor, so I didn't really get the feeling this was weeks or months in the making.  But hey I could be wrong.

[Eliastion]

Not really the impression I got from the dialogue.  In talking to Dorian one of your choices you say something to the effect that Alexius altered time to arrive "right after the Divine died".  Also when talking to Fiona one of the primary choices your commenting on how incredibly fast it was that they've already signed themselves over to Travintor, so I didn't really get the feeling this was weeks or months in the making.  But hey I could be wrong.

He arrived quickly after the breach. Now I think the fastest you could go to Hinterlands, to Val Royeaux and back to Redcliffe... I'm guessing 2 months at the shortest. Likely more. And the deal seems to be pretty fresh when you get there. If striking the deal like that took weeks, even a month or two, it's still very fast, but nowhere near matter of hours or even days. Especially since we know that mages were "worked on" by Venatori mages within their ranks and Venatori ally among Ferelden nobility - things like that don't happen instantly.

[Digger1967]

He arrived quickly after the breach. Now I think the fastest you could go to Hinterlands, to Val Royeaux and back to Redcliffe... I'm guessing 2 months at the shortest. Likely more. And the deal seems to be pretty fresh when you get there. If striking the deal like that took weeks, even a month or two, it's still very fast, but nowhere near matter of hours or even days. Especially since we know that mages were "worked on" by Venatori mages within their ranks and Venatori ally among Ferelden nobility - things like that don't happen instantly.

 

Well no timeline is specified but the dialogue makes it pretty clear that however fast it happened it was fast enough to be surprising, which still makes it difficult to resolve in my mind at least that Fiona and the others leading the rebel camp weren't subjected to something other than just simple persuasion and diplomatic pressure.