Does anyone actually know what Avernus' live extension magic involved?
Because it might be that what Avernus had to offer wasn't as readily applicable to all Wardens and perhaps not at all feasible as a solution to the Calling.
The fact that the Warden is looking (if he survives), obviously means that Avernus research isn't the complete solution.
The only interesting discussion in the Inquisition forum is about Origins.
That beign said... To look for a cure is a lot more than the cure itself. It is to understand the calling, understand its origins and perhaps even get a lot of info about the blight, the archdemons and Maker knows what else! In this case, the quest makes it all worthy... probably.
Avernus probably made a lot of improvements but it can't be compared to what warden's quest would unveil. I would say that Avernus was about countering the EFFECTS of the calling and not the calling itself. Anyway, I loved the guy since not only he gave me skills in Origins but also stat points in DA2. Avernus
What's there to understand? When you've been a Warden for long enough, the Taint begins to resurface and you start gradually turning into a darkspawn. The warning sign is when you begin to hear the call of the Old Gods, like the darkspawn do. And so, to give your death meaning and spare your comrades from having to kill you, you enter the deep roads to kill as many darkspawn as you possibly can before they take you down or you turn completely. I wasn't aware that there was any of mystery around the Calling.
And again, Avernus extended his lifespan by two hundred years. I'd say that's more than just countering the effects of the Calling. And the Calling itself is just hearing the voices of the Old Gods. Even if you tracked down and killed the remaining ones, you'd still turn into a darkspawn. You just wouldn't have the advance warning. And all darkspawn everywhere might spontaneously develop true sentience, or turn into vegetables.
Does anyone actually know what Avernus' live extension magic involved?
Because it might be that what Avernus had to offer wasn't as readily applicable to all Wardens and perhaps not at all feasible as a solution to the Calling.
The fact that the Warden is looking (if he survives), obviously means that Avernus research isn't the complete solution.
No, we don't know what the magic entails at all, but we can infer that Avernus was able to develop and excercise it with very limited resources, being locked up in the tower. So far it seems like it might only be applicable to Mages, but even that would be a huge game-changer for the Wardens.
No, we don't know what the magic entails at all, but we can infer that Avernus was able to develop and excercise it with very limited resources, being locked up in the tower. So far it seems like it might only be applicable to Mages, but even that would be a huge game-changer for the Wardens.
I dunno. I think the possibility exists that Avernus doesn't actually know how he did it but it was the result of the various rituals he performed. The Blight seems quite random that way.
It's conceivable, but I don't think it's very likely. He had test subjects whom he would experiment on before doing anything to himself, and longevity of all things doesn't make much sense as a "positive side effect" of doing a lot of unrelated rituals. Even if he did stop aging without knowing exactly why, he would thoroughly examine his notes of what he did when to determine the cause. I don't quite see the randomnsess you're referring to.
Becuase there isn't an actual cure for it yet.
I was under the impression that the HoF got a lot of extra years from the Avernus drink. Maybe not centuries like he did but way over your average lifespan of regular Thedasian. So there is plenty of time to look for the cure.
What's there to understand? When you've been a Warden for long enough, the Taint begins to resurface and you start gradually turning into a darkspawn. The warning sign is when you begin to hear the call of the Old Gods, like the darkspawn do. And so, to give your death meaning and spare your comrades from having to kill you, you enter the deep roads to kill as many darkspawn as you possibly can before they take you down or you turn completely. I wasn't aware that there was any of mystery around the Calling.
They may understand what it does, but not how it does it. Knowing how the taint does what it does could potentially open up several possibilities, just like understanding the mechanism of a disease can help us learn how to control it or even prevent it from spreading in the first place.
I was under the impression that the HoF got a lot of extra years from the Avernus drink. Maybe not centuries like he did but way over your average lifespan of regular Thedasian. So there is plenty of time to look for the cure.
I wasn't aware of that, where did you read it? And plenty of time to spend with your beautiful wife and child instead of looking for the cure for a problem you already solved.
Everything dies. Extending life is admirable depending on the means, which is subjective to the thing looking to extend their life.
However that seems to be only part of this equation.
The HoF-Warden (or perhaps the Orlesian-Warden, if the HoF is dead whatever) could be looking for a cure to the Calling to remove an Old God's influence from a Warden's mind. This, as we see in DAI, is a big problem for Wardens because once they hear it they become 'tards.
Extending life is pretty admirable regardless of the means, if you ask me. And wardens, who are the only ones subject to the Calling, have a universal "whatever it takes" policy.
But Grey Wardens being influenced by Old Gods has never been a problem before Inquisition, why would the HoF feel the need to make any efforts to prevent it?
They may understand what it does, but not how it does it. Knowing how the taint does what it does could potentially open up several possibilities, just like understanding the mechanism of a disease can help us learn how to control it or even prevent it from spreading in the first place.
I don't know about you, but less than half of my Wardens are medical specialists.
I always knew I should have kept a bit of Andraste's sacred ashes for myself.
It's conceivable, but I don't think it's very likely. He had test subjects whom he would experiment on before doing anything to himself, and longevity of all things doesn't make much sense as a "positive side effect" of doing a lot of unrelated rituals. Even if he did stop aging without knowing exactly why, he would thoroughly examine his notes of what he did when to determine the course. I don't quite see the randomnsess you're referring to.
I would like to think Avernus' research is spurring the Warden to go on his quest.
Probably, yes, but why? While Grey Wardens that live long enough must experience the Calling, far and away the majority must die in battle long before then, mustn't they? They're an order of warriors, highly unlikely to survive to be 50-60 years old, especially in medieval times and especially in the aftermath of a Blight. It would be wildly unrealistic for the warden to expect to live past middle-age, much less abandon his family AND his duties in order to ensure that he could grow old if he survived until then
Oh I wasn't referring to the longevity, as someone pointed out that's most likely down to blood magic. Slowing down the spread of the taint could have been random though. If I remember correctly Avernus was looking for the power of the Blight to stop the demons, not researching longevity. Hence any combination of the rituals he used over the hundreds of years in that keep could have kept him from the Calling. And the Blight is random in that way, sometimes it affects people sometimes it doesn't and when you mess with it you get really weird effects like a cured Fiona or a full Darkspawn Ultha.
Regardless the Codex Entry: Avernus' Notes seem to render my point moot since he talks about slowing down the taint as a road to gaining power. My best guess is that, as someone said above, the potion gave him extra years but now the Hero is looking for a more permanent solution.
You mean to say that the Warden is on a quest for true immortality? That's the only permanency-related improvement I can imagine for a potion that already "slows the taint down" by two hundred years. And I cannot believe that Avernus would accidentally master his taint and then just shrug it off without researching and documenting exactly how he did it and how it could be applied to other Wardens. It's outlandish, given his goal of more powerful wardens with exactly this kind of control.
And it's my impression that blight sickness affects people differently because people have different levels of constitution and willpower and because some are exposed to more taint than others, not because the blight infection itself has some kind of chaos factor. To our knowledge, Warden recruits survive or die depending on whether they can withstand the Joining potion, not whether or not the potion particularly feels like killing them that day.
Becuase there isn't an actual cure for it yet.
I'd rather it not get found personally. I kind of like the element of tragedy that goes along with being a Warden.
That could have been precisely what Avernus was doing, trying to figure out which of the potentially hundreds of rituals he performed gave him power over the taint and the result could have been the potion we are given the option to drink. And the taint certainly has some sense of a chaos factor, Alexius notes that it progresses erratically yet the natural resistance some of his subjects had was unable to be transferred to others. Most plants can't survive in tainted lands yet others can? And when you mix it with magic it seems even more unpredictable - cured Fiona. Hence my point is that a cure for the taint might not be as easy as simply gathering up Avernus' notes since the only people who seemed to have any real understanding of Darkspawn magic was Remille (who is dead) and the Architect (who may be dead) and even he didn't seem to really know what he was doing some of the time.Probably, yes, but why? While Grey Wardens that live long enough must experience the Calling, far and away the majority must die in battle long before then, mustn't they? They're an order of warriors, highly unlikely to survive to be 50-60 years old, especially in medieval times and especially in the aftermath of a Blight. It would be wildly unrealistic for the warden to expect to live past middle-age, much less abandon his family AND his duties in order to ensure that he could grow old if he survived until then
You mean to say that the Warden is on a quest for true immortality? That's the only permanency-related improvement I can imagine for a potion that already "slows the taint down" by two hundred years. And I cannot believe that Avernus would accidentally master his taint and then just shrug it off without researching and documenting exactly how he did it and how it could be applied to other Wardens. It's outlandish, given his goal of more powerful wardens with exactly this kind of control.
And it's my impression that blight sickness affects people differently because people have different levels of constitution and willpower and because some are exposed to more taint than others, not because the blight infection itself has some kind of chaos factor. To our knowledge, Warden recruits survive or die depending on whether they can withstand the Joining potion, not whether or not the potion particularly feels like killing them that day.
Because not only does it prolong the lifespan of Grey Wardens, but it also lets them use the powers of the taint without suffering the consequences of it - namely the poisonous element of the taint.
Avernus' solution was temporary, and not easily done to large groups of people as it involves too much blood magic.
I personally let Avernus continue his unethical solutions. It's not the right thing to do, but I'm doing it for the greater good of the Grey Wardens and the people of Thedas.
Hm... if it's just standard blood magic that Avernus used, I guess it's not that big a deal since he's probably not the only one who knows how to do that. It may be something similar to what Enchanter Sweeny alluded to in DAO's Mage origin when he said that magic that could fix his aging body wasn't anything he'd be interested in practicing. And now that I think about it, I guess living twice as long as normal but still being plagued by nightmares and incessant whispering probably wouldn't be all that great...
I am pretty sure sure it isn't like it maybe in theory but i can't remember how sweeny did it but Avernus in my under standing pretty much tortured people using their blood if I remember the journal right so I doubt no one would openly maybe some in the warden and some in tevinter would promote it but not man others I am luckily playing though dao again so i'll see
Ok his research comes from torturing wardens and maybe actually require tat to make the potion itself but that is really all we know he said wishes he had more test subjects
Modifié par Swaggerjking, 25 février 2015 - 03:09 .
I don't know about you, but less than half of my Wardens are medical specialists.
So obviously they should be unable to recognize that knowing about a phenomenon that every member of their order is subjected to might be helpful in some way down the road? You can appreciate the value of learning about the world around regardless of the career you choose.
Also, there is a fundamental difference between slowing the taint's progression and eradicating it from a subject completely. Could understanding how to remove the taint from a person lead to learning how to revive blighted lands? Could it help them to keep it from spreading among refugees like it did in Crestwood? How could they know if they don't investigate?
I plan on upgrading to new graphics engine when I hit 40.
Why wait? you can do it today, and it's free. 
Didn't the Architect theorize that certain groups of Humans/Elves/Qunari/etc. could have a natural resistance to the taint, and that infecting most of the population with the taint would single out those immune(like Fiona, and arguably Alistair)?
Both in game and in the supplementary novels, I've always got the impression The Taint functioned like an infection, a sickness, like rabies, a virus, a fungus or something.
Even people who might not be totally immune, like Lelianna, have been shown to be incredibly resistant to The Taint's corruption, which again implies the immune system plays some role in fighting it off.
Perhaps some combination of blood magic and dragon's blood could (even temporarily) cleanse the body of the taint.
Here's a thought: The Darkspawn, including Corypheus/The Architect, arguably existed in the taint-infested Deep Roads for hundreds of years----so what if the taint itself induced some form of immortality (or at least halting the aging process), but inducing early onset dementia/Alzheimer's?
If Avernus's used Blood Magic to cleanse himself of the negative aspects of The Taint from time to time, it would explain his impossible age, and how we was able to cheat the calling.
Furthermore, assuming Arlathan is The Black City, where Elves enjoyed immortality(or near immortality), then perhaps they were all infused with The Taint, and used some similar cleansing ritual to avoid it's negative effects, like the mental degradation and The Calling. If that was the case, then when the Ancient Elven and Arlathan[The Black City] was eventually banished to The Fade, it was already infested with The Taint/The Corruption. Furthermore, since Corypheus states that not only has the taint existed in Thedas before the first blight, but that The Black City was ruined/empty/tainted upon The Magisters' arrival.
But that still doesn't explain why Arlathan was banished to begin with. Perhaps it was a kindness. If The Calling is truly some psychic-subliminal messaging from The Old Gods, then perhaps Solas banished his Civilization to The Fade as attempt to save his people from the madness that was The Old Gods call. After all, what better place to escape the call of The Old Gods than another dimension?
That still doesn't explain what The Taint is or how The Old Gods are binded to the Corruption/Tainted ones, but it would at least give some insight on how one could possible avoid it's negative effects (aka: blood magic).
That could have been precisely what Avernus was doing, trying to figure out which of the potentially hundreds of rituals he performed gave him power over the taint and the result could have been the potion we are given the option to drink. And the taint certainly has some sense of a chaos factor, Alexius notes that it progresses erratically yet the natural resistance some of his subjects had was unable to be transferred to others. Most plants can't survive in tainted lands yet others can? And when you mix it with magic it seems even more unpredictable - cured Fiona. Hence my point is that a cure for the taint might not be as easy as simply gathering up Avernus' notes since the only people who seemed to have any real understanding of Darkspawn magic was Remille (who is dead) and the Architect (who may be dead) and even he didn't seem to really know what he was doing some of the time.
It could have been what he was doing, yes, but I see no actual basis for that. Plenty of infections spread erratically, and if some people are resistant and others aren't then that proves that the different reactions stem from variations in the physiology of the diseased, not the disease itself. Figuring out what makes some plants more resistant than others would be interesting, yes, but how would it help? And would it help enough to justify the warden ignoring all his other responsibilities?
Fiona wasn't cured by some weird fluke of magic and blight sickness, the Architect who explicitly has power over the taint deliberately did something to her. And since there's no way the HoF could possibly know this, it should not affect the decision to go hunting for the cure. The HoF never met Remille and Avernus never met either him or the Architect. As such, Avernus developed his cure independently, meaning that it should be possible for any mage, and the HoF had no way of knowing that the Architect's power could be taught, so that shouldn't factor into his/her decisions.
Because not only does it prolong the lifespan of Grey Wardens, but it also lets them use the powers of the taint without suffering the consequences of it - namely the poisonous element of the taint.
Avernus' solution was temporary, and not easily done to large groups of people as it involves too much blood magic.
I personally let Avernus continue his unethical solutions. It's not the right thing to do, but I'm doing it for the greater good of the Grey Wardens and the people of Thedas.
Avernus' solution was not even remotely temporary, it doubled his lifespan many times over and effectively fixed the corruption of the taint. We don't actually know that it takes a lot of blood magic, only that it took a lot to develop the method. Even assuming the practice actively requires human sacrifices, he could not possibly have had to kill more than one person for every 30-50 years with which he extended his life. My warden's personal kill-count was in the triple digits over the course of a single year, only about half of which were darkspawn. If he'd known how to do what Avernus did from the start, he could have outlived Flemeth.
I am pretty sure sure it isn't like it maybe in theory but i can't remember how sweeny did it but Avernus in my under standing pretty much tortured people using their blood if I remember the journal right so I doubt no one would openly maybe some in the warden and some in tevinter would promote it but not man others I am luckily playing though dao again so i'll see
Again, that's what he did to develop his methods, we don't know if actually applying them would require anything of the sort. And in Inquisition, Wardens enthusiastically sacrifice each other in order to put a stop to the Calling. I highly doubt they'd be squeamish enough to refuse longivity regardless of the taint on the simple grounds of it involving blood magic.
So obviously they should be unable to recognize that knowing about a phenomenon that every member of their order is subjected to might be helpful in some way down the road? You can appreciate the value of learning about the world around regardless of the career you choose.
Also, there is a fundamental difference between slowing the taint's progression and eradicating it from a subject completely. Could understanding how to remove the taint from a person lead to learning how to revive blighted lands? Could it help them to keep it from spreading among refugees like it did in Crestwood? How could they know if they don't investigate?
Yes, frankly. How many accomplished construction workers have ever decided to suddenly learn medicine and embark on a quest to discover the secret to eternal life, do you think? They have a vested interest in curing death, don't they?
Again, the Warden has no reason to believe that a possibility of removing the taint exists outside of Avernus' methods, and slowing the taint to the point where it doesn't affect you within your actual lifetime is damn well the same as eradicating it. And Wardens HAVE investigated. The wardens have been investigating it for almost a thousand years. The Tevinter Magisters, experts far superior to the HoF, have been experimenting since the very first Blight.
It would be a lot easier for the Wardens to keep up their numbers if they didn't constantly lose their senior members to the Calling. And if there had been a cure, then Corypheus would never have been able to manipulate the Wardens into becoming his servants.
Those senior Wardens are in their fifties, sixties and seventies. The few lucky enough to survive that long in the Grey Wardens probably make up less than a tenth of the order, and they're already rapidly slowing down and getting weaker. The Wardens also didn't know that Corypheus would be able to manipulate them like that, so they had no reason to take any action to specifically prevent it.
Didn't the Architect theorize that certain groups of Humans/Elves/Qunari/etc. could have a natural resistance to the taint, and that infecting most of the population with the taint would single out those immune(like Fiona, and arguably Alistair)?
Both in game and in the supplementary novels, I've always got the impression The Taint functioned like an infection, a sickness, like rabies, a virus, a fungus or something.
Even people who might not be totally immune, like Lelianna, have been shown to be incredibly resistant to The Taint's corruption, which again implies the immune system plays some role in fighting it off.
Perhaps some combination of blood magic and dragon's blood could (even temporarily) cleanse the body of the taint.
Here's a thought: The Darkspawn, including Corypheus/The Architect, arguably existed in the taint-infested Deep Roads for hundreds of years----so what if the taint itself induced some form of immortality (or at least halting the aging process), but inducing early onset dementia/Alzheimer's?
If Avernus's used Blood Magic to cleanse himself of the negative aspects of The Taint from time to time, it would explain his impossible age, and how we was able to cheat the calling.
Furthermore, assuming Arlathan is The Black City, where Elves enjoyed immortality(or near immortality), then perhaps they were all infused with The Taint, and used some similar cleansing ritual to avoid it's negative effects, like the mental degradation and The Calling. If that was the case, then when the Ancient Elven and Arlathan[The Black City] was eventually banished to The Fade, it was already infested with The Taint/The Corruption. Furthermore, since Corypheus states that not only has the taint existed in Thedas before the first blight, but that The Black City was ruined/empty/tainted upon The Magisters' arrival.
But that still doesn't explain why Arlathan was banished to begin with. Perhaps it was a kindness. If The Calling is truly some psychic-subliminal messaging from The Old Gods, then perhaps Solas banished his Civilization to The Fade as attempt to save his people from the madness that was The Old Gods call. After all, what better place to escape the call of The Old Gods than another dimension?
That still doesn't explain what The Taint is or how The Old Gods are binded to the Corruption/Tainted ones, but it would at least give some insight on how one could possible avoid it's negative effects (aka: blood magic).
You're making a lot of sense. In that case though, Avernus' methods should be usable by any Warden Blood Mage with the possibility of being able to invoke the effect in others as well.
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