94 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmar]

Alien/animal comparison is a pretty sound observation. Hanar, for example. What would you think if you see one for the first time? 

And racism is a weird claim to make. We use the word racism to describe prejudice and discrimination against members of other race. But in the end we are all human. We should not apply the same criteria to alien species.

 

Wouldn't racism be more suiting for aliens? Like you said, we're all the same race - the human race. Yet we call it racism. With aliens it literally is racism because we literally are doing it against members of a literal other race. Racism, imo, works better with context to aliens than it does to humans. In a weird way even the word racist could be considered racist. It's a bit late to make up a new word though. lol.

 

As for hanar, sure, I can see that. Had she said that near an hanar I might be more understanding. I didn't see any hanar there. I saw asari and a turian. Asari, coincidentally, being the one species many have complained about being "too-human" in appearance.

[God]

Wouldn't racism be more suiting for aliens? Like you said, we're all the same race - the human race. Yet we call it racism. With aliens it literally is racism because we literally are doing it against members of a literal other race. Racism, imo, works better with context to aliens than it does to humans. In a weird way even the word racist could be considered racist. It's a bit late to make up a new word though. lol.

 

As for hanar, sure, I can see that. Had she said that near an hanar I might be more understanding. I didn't see any hanar there. I saw asari and a turian. Asari, coincidentally, being the one species many have complained about being "too-human" in appearance.

 

The term for it is speciesism.

 

Xenophobia is also a good term.

[Valmar]

I've heard of xenophobia before. Even used it before. I prefer calling it racism since its more established and will better convey the prejudice. People tend to treat the phrase 'racist' with more seriousness than they do 'xenophobe'. Even though both are real and serious things, one is clearly more 'powerful' a word in our culture in my experience.

 

Besides, even Ashley used the word racist. I suppose I could say shes right that she's "not really racist" on a semantic level. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to think of her as a racist. I don't like letting people hide behind semantics when the intent of the message was clear regardless of whatever technicality they want to shield themselves with.

[Mordokai]

All I'm going to say is that I agree with Valmar. When you have to defend your position with words "it's not racism... not really", then I'm inclined to believe your argument is standing on pretty shaky legs to begin with.

[Daemul]

"If you're fighting a bear, and the only way for you to survive is to sic your dog on it and run, you'll do it. As much as you love your dog, it isn't human.  It's not racism. Not really." - Ashley

 

Whenever you have to defend your stance with "its not really racism" you probably should reevaluate some things. Her defense sounds very familiar to some of the 'defenses' and 'justifications' humans uses to validate their racist remarks. Saying "well, others feel the same way" doesn't really help the case any, imo.

 

I'm not saying Ashley is going to go on a huge anti-alien murdering rampage (though her attitude towards the Rachni queen could be viewed as such) but you don't have to be violent to be racist. She isn't space Hitler or anything. I don't think she'd wish any harm on aliens just because they're aliens. I just don't think she'd care about them.

 

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals." - Ashley Williams, not really racist.

 

I'm not going to trust the lives of aliens to someone who cant tell aliens from animals and compares sacrificing them to save yourself to be the same as sending your dog because "it isn't human". Not to mention how openly distrusting and suspicious she is of aliens.

 

You do realise that the line "It's not really racism. Not really.", was said from the perspective of the council sicking humanity on the bear, and not from her perspective,right? Please telll me you realise this, I refuse believe you are that inept.

 

 Also, it has been said time and time again that the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" line is bugged. Bringing it up just shows your ignorance about it 

[Vazgen]

I'm not defending her views. I just prefer for them to be labeled correctly.

As for actual defending, she does not say that she'll act the same way. She makes an observation at how would the different species react in that situation. And a quite correct one, as we see in ME3.

[Daemul]

All I'm going to say is that I agree with Valmar. When you have to defend your position with words "it's not racism... not really", then I'm inclined to believe your argument is standing on pretty shaky legs to begin with.

 Once again, Ashley said that line from the councils perspective, not her own. The line literally after that one is "Members of their species will always be important to them than humans are".

   

Seriously, I expect better from you guys, especially since the BS council meeting at the beginning of ME3 proved Ashley right.  

[Kynare]

Okay, well, let's think of the perks of Ashley's character! She's a bit more "fun-loving" and social from what I can see. She enjoys a good fight and takes pride in her Spectre status come ME3. People call her racist, but she does grow attached to Tali and possibly the other alien characters as well (even going as far as to say that she saw Tali like a little sister) which suggests a change in her attitude towards the aliens, or at least the ones who are good.

 

Her distrust of aliens stemmed from their rocky history with the Alliance during the First Contact War, and Shepard is the only Alliance commander to bring aliens onto their ship. She's extremely loyal to the Alliance, and likewise, her personal feelings are overruled by her loyalty, so she will follow you either way in ME1. If your character is also an Alliance loyalist, then that could be seen as a very positive trait. It can help your Shepard to understand her better in ME2 if they resent being with Cerberus just as much as she does.

 

So is your Paragon just as loyal and dutiful? Did they choose to uphold their responsibility as a Spectre to preserve all galactic life, but still understand Ashley's inhibitions when it comes to aliens working on their ship? If so, then a close relationship is very feasible. You could still headcanon a growing understanding from Ashley once she becomes a Spectre. She'll always uphold her duty and protect the council during the Cerberus coup regardless of her personal distrust for aliens.

 

Another thing, she attempts to appear tough in front of her comrades, but is evidently flustered when it comes to a male Shepard. Which is kinda cute, if you're okay with the occasionally self-conscious type. You get to tease her a lot. :D

 

No one can deny that for Paragon, the personality with the least resistance is Kaidan. But being a Paragon literally means you can compliment any of the romance options as long as you support them. All of the relationships are worth it and have their perks. Except for Jacob, in my opinion. I didn't get anything from him before I even knew what happened in ME3...

[Daemul]

Always picked Kaiden ( ) Now I'm going as a Sentinel Paragon meaning....Kaiden kinda isn't worth having cause we're both Sentinel's D: so how good is romancing Ashley through the series? or should I stay bro's before hoes lol.

 

It depends, do you want to experience what married life is going to be like? Then yes, Ashley's romance is perfect for that 

 

No, but  seriously, if you can't handle someone who doesn't have a naively idealistic view of the galaxy and who isn't afraid to tell you what she thinks in spite of your precious feelings, then avoid her romance. The fact that she doesn't change much between the games is what makes her the best character, everyone else seems to change at the whim of the mighty Shepard and/or the plot, but her personality stays consistent, which actually makes her feel like a real person, and not just some video game character.

 

She's a realistic character in an unrealistic world is how I would describe her.      

[Mordokai]

 Once again, Ashley said that line from the councils perspective, not her own. The line literally after that one is "Members of their species will always be important to them than humans are".

   

Seriously, I expect better from you guys, especially since the BS council meeting at the beginning of ME3 proved Ashley right.  

 

This is a can of worms I'm not opening.

 

Suffice to say, yeah, I do see her as racist. Nothing you or anybody else ever says gonna change that.

[Daemul]

This is a can of worms I'm not opening.

 

Suffice to say, yeah, I do see her as racist. Nothing you or anybody else ever says gonna change that.

 

Lord have mercy. 

[Mordokai]

 

Lord have mercy. 

 

He gave up long ago

[Barquiel]

Alien/animal comparison is a pretty sound observation. Hanar, for example. What would you think if you see one for the first time?

I have a hard time believing that she had never heard of Blasto

Seriously though, that comment is really bad - no matter what species. I mean, the MEU isn't like the Star Trek universe where you have hundreds/thousands of different species. I'd expect everyone in my crew (the alliance) to know the citadel races.

[Vazgen]

I have a hard time believing that she had never heard of Blasto

Seriously though, that comment is really bad - no matter what species. I mean, the MEU isn't like the Star Trek universe where you have hundreds/thousands of different species. I'd expect everyone in my crew (the alliance) to know the citadel races.

Overall I agree, but don't forget she was stuck on a human colony for quite a long time. There were no turians on the colony and I expect no other races as well, since turians seem to be the most spread-out after the humans (which is very weird IMO, the human part). And the vids... Would you watch an action movie with a jellyfish as protagonist? For lolz maybe I think it's even possible that she never met one in person. She learned of them in school and in the Alliance but first-hand experience is quite different.

I don't see Ash as racist (or at least not to the extreme). Her actions when protecting the salarians and the council, her disposition towards Tali show that she can work and befriend aliens. Still, she will be slower to trust an alien than a human. I can see that.

[Barquiel]

I'd say she is mildly racist, at least in ME1 and ME2. She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race...and she has some really terrible lines in the first two games ("Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!", "You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead.", "Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters.", "I am no fan of aliens", "I can't tell the aliens from the animals").

But I also agree that the bear/dog thing isn't racist. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack (and had roles been reversed and Thessia or Sur'kesh were invaded first the alliance wouldn't have responded any different). That's common sense.

[themikefest]

 Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack (and had roles been reversed and Thessia or Sur'kesh were invaded first the alliance wouldn't have responded any different). That's common sense.

Whether that's true or not is speculation on your part.

[themikefest]

I like Ashley because she kills Wrex for me. Excellent. 

 

I did a trilogy romance with her however long ago and it wasn't bad

[Valmar]

You do realise that the line "It's not really racism. Not really.", was said from the perspective of the council sicking humanity on the bear, and not from her perspective,right? Please telll me you realise this, I refuse believe you are that inept.

I aint gots dat dere fancy book lernin. mah maw saz Im the best in dah class tho. praz jazus.

 

 

 Also, it has been said time and time again that the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" line is bugged. Bringing it up just shows your ignorance about it 

 

Oh, has it? I've never heard of it before. News to me. Though I don't generally partake in Ashley threads. The wiki doesn't mention such a bug. Do you have an official source?
 

 

 Seriously, I expect better from you guys, especially since the BS council meeting at the beginning of ME3 proved Ashley right.  

 

Funny, I've heard arguments like that before too. Right up there with the "its not really racist" line. Next you're hear that some of her best friends are aliens. Oh wait a second...

 

 

 

Look, the OP asked our opinion on the matter. I gave my opinion. You don't think shes racist, thats fine. I think we can at least all agree on the fact that her character in the very least gives the impression of being racist to many people. I am hardly the first person I've seen that got that vibe from her. In fact, personally, one of the most common and things I see chided against her as a character is that she's racist.

 

So regardless of whether or not she is "really racist" she still projects a racist vibe. Clearly something wasn't handled very well with the character or writing.

[Rasande]

Consider this: Ashley doesn't put value on alien lives. She herself compared aliens to dogs. Sacrificing an alien to save a human was put in the same terms of one sending a dog to distract a bear so the human can escape. This is the person you want to send leading a group of salarians?

 

Please, not only are you taking this way out context you're also getting it backwards,misinterpreting it and reading it too litteraly.

 

What she means is that the council would value their own species lives over a humans if they ever were in a possition where they had to choose(cough ME3 cough), it dosen't mean she dosen't value alien lives or thinks of them as dogs...

She's cynical and got a bad treatment beacuse of her family, this makes her slow to trust and thus abit xenophobic. That dosen't mean she hates aliens or thinks less of them, but they are an unknown to her and beacuse she had to be strong and self reliant her whole career she passes on that view in her political views, that if the alliance relies too much on the council it's going to bite them in the ass. Standing alone in a galactic comunity might be stupid(i'm not even sure she'd wanto take it that far) but it's not out of biggotry.

 

Again, she's a cynical realist, if that clashes with your idealism fine, but it dosen't make her some alien hating bigot. At worst she's xenophobic. But her views are political, not about individuals. If she really was a racist bigot she sure as hell wouldn't volunteer to go with Kirahee or be against Terra Firma.

[Mordokai]

That dosen't mean she hates aliens or thinks less of them...

 

 

I'd say she is mildly racist, at least in ME1 and ME2. She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race...and she has some really terrible lines in the first two games ("Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!", "You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead.", "Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters.", "I am no fan of aliens", "I can't tell the aliens from the animals").

[shepskisaac]

I think Kaidan edges out Ashley in terms of content, regardless of romance.

They have virtually the same amount of content.

[Valmar]

Please, not only are you taking this way out context you're also getting it backwards,misinterpreting it and reading it too litteraly.

 

What she means is that the council would value their own species lives over a humans if they ever were in a possition where they had to choose(cough ME3 cough), it dosen't mean she dosen't value alien lives or thinks of them as dogs...

She's cynical and got a bad treatment beacuse of her family, this makes her slow to trust and thus abit xenophobic. That dosen't mean she hates aliens or thinks less of them, but they are an unknown to her and beacuse she had to be strong and self reliant her whole career she passes on that view in her political views, that if the alliance relies too much on the council it's going to bite them in the ass. Standing alone in a galactic comunity might be stupid(i'm not even sure she'd wanto take it that far) but it's not out of biggotry.

 

Again, she's a cynical realist, if that clashes with your idealism fine, but it dosen't make her some alien hating bigot. At worst she's xenophobic. But her views are political, not about individuals. If she really was a racist bigot she sure as hell wouldn't volunteer to go with Kirahee or be against Terra Firma.

 

Did I say she hates aliens? Did I say she was space Hitler? Nope, I didn't. I actually said that wasn't the case. Not that I don't appreciate the irony.

 

There isn't a requirement for extremes. Racist isn't suddenly not racist just because there wasn't a lynching involved. It's still racist, regardless of its extreme. Calling aliens animals, distrusting people specifically because of their race, using analogies that link alien sacrifice on the same level as sacrificing a dog because "it isn't human", referring to squadmates as "some alien", saying "I'm no fan of aliens" and so on and so forth all give me adequate reason to view her character is being racist. I never said she was a hateful violent racist that gets off on killing non-humans. I said she isn't likely to care about the aliens. Which is a perfect fair assessment given her own words on the matter.

[KaiserShep]

They have virtually the same amount of content.

I meant in terms of quality, not quantity, though I'm still pretty sure that Kaidan has more dialogue on the ship than Ashley does.

[Pasquale1234]

Racism abounds, particularly to and from humans, since humans are still relative newcomers in the galactic community. Your very own XO Pressly is quite racist.

Having been relegated to groundside postings, Ashley probably hasn't come into contact with other species much, if at all.

I don't like her racism any more than I like Pressly's, but I do find her honesty refreshing. I find it a little easier to trust people willing to speak the unvarnished truth than those who spout the PC line.

@OP: Do the romance if you find it appealing. You'll get yay and nay arguments about just about anything you might bring up here.

[Han Shot First]

Ashley is a little untrusting of aliens and politically incorrect at times, but she's not really a racist. If you bring her to the Terra Firma rally in ME1 she is more offended by their racist political platform than your alien squadmates. Also in one of the elevator conversations she'll tell Tali that she hopes her contributions against Saren will be recognized and help lessen the discrimination Quarians often face in Council space.

 

 

 

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals." - Ashley Williams, not really racist.

 

 

That line is bugged. It was meant to only be said in reference to the Keepers. 

 

The only line Ashley has that I think is overtly 'racist' is the one where she gives Shepard an earful about playing nice with the 'bug-eyed monsters.' But even that I think is a little more complicated than how it sounds. The motivation behind that statement isn't really animosity towards aliens, but jealousy of Liara. Ashley starts with the snark towards Liara the moment she gets on ship and doesn't let up throughout ME1. It's jealousy towards the other attractive woman on the ship and a potential romantic rival. She doesn't have similar issues with Wrex, Tali, or Garrus, all of them aliens, because unlike Liara none of them are LIs in the first game.

 

That jealousy perhaps makes less sense with Fem Shep, but I think that's a holdover from a stage in development where Ashley was still a LI for both genders. Considering the dialogue for a romance between Fem Shep and Ashley shipped with the game, it must have been cut late in development.