94 réponses à ce sujet

[Rasande]

Did I say she hates aliens? Did I say she was space Hitler? Nope, I didn't. I actually said that wasn't the case. Not that I don't appreciate the irony.

 

There isn't a requirement for extremes. Racist isn't suddenly not racist just because there wasn't a lynching involved. It's still racist, regardless of its extreme. Calling aliens animals, distrusting people specifically because of their race, using analogies that link alien sacrifice on the same level as sacrificing a dog because "it isn't human", referring to squadmates as "some alien", saying "I'm no fan of aliens" and so on and so forth all give me adequate reason to view her character is being racist. I never said she was a hateful violent racist that gets off on killing non-humans. I said she isn't likely to care about the aliens. Which is a perfect fair assessment given her own words on the matter.

 

In the post i quoted you said she dosen't put any value on alien lives and think of them as nothing more than animals. I'd say that's pretty extreme. That and your view of her analogy is what i disagreed with, her beeing distrustful to a fault wasn't. What you refer to as racism i call xenophobia so we are in agreement on that part except for the semantics.

I'll admit i cut her some slack, maby too much, but i stand by saying that the "Dog vs Bear" analogy isn't racist.

Also the "i can't tell the aliens from the animals" line i think sounds much worse than it acually is. I can imagine that when they wrote that line they envisioned the presidium beeing filled with many diffirent beeings and in her defense, if i saw a hanar or a keeper i wouldn't be sure if was an animal or a sapient creature.

[dreamgazer]

One of my Shepards romances Ash in ME1, then leaves her for Jack.  That's an enjoyable arc that produces some unique personal conflict in ME3, and tends to jibe better with Ashley's cameo refusal to rejoin the Normandy in ME2.

[GalacticWolf5]

That line is bugged. It was meant to only be said in reference to the Keepers.

Source for that?

[Han Shot First]

Source for that?

 

I'm not going to dig up it, but you're welcome to try.

 

One of the devs posted it on the old forums shortly after ME1 released, in one of the many complaint threads about Ashley being a racist. 

[Valmar]

That line is bugged. It was meant to only be said in reference to the Keepers. 

 

Source?

 

 

In the post i quoted you said she dosen't put any value on alien lives and think of them as nothing more than animals. I'd say that's pretty extreme. That and your view of her analogy is what i disagreed with, her beeing distrustful to a fault wasn't. What you refer to as racism i call xenophobia so we are in agreement on that part except for the semantics.

 

http://forum.bioware.../#entry18670633

[Iakus]

Source for that?

Chris L'Etoile.  Her writer for ME1.

 

Ashley is supposed to be showing curiousity about the Keepers.  She can't tell if they're sentient or not (you know, a question no one on the Citadel has been able to answer in two thousand years) and thus can't tell if they are "aliens" (sentient) or "animals" (not sentient).

 

Given this is a galaxy that has talking jellyfish (hanar), bipedal raptors, and asthmatic teddy bears, it's not an unreasonable question.

 

In addition, if you play ME1, she only says that line if you are in the general vicinity of a keeper.  She was supposed to say it when you are closer (and more liekly to be able to see it) But try it someplace where you're far away from a Keeper, and you'll notice that bark never comes up.

[Valmar]

I'm still not seeing a provided source for this bug.

[shepskisaac]

I meant in terms of quality, not quantity, though I'm still pretty sure that Kaidan has more dialogue on the ship than Ashley does.

Well, the quality is obvious subjective considering millions on "I hate Kaidan so boring" posts and stuff. As for Normandy content, maybe he has a tiny bit more ambient dialogues, the cinematic conversations count is the same though, just not in same places. Kaidan has Normandy chat after Jacob's mission, Ashely has refugee memorial chat on the Citadel

[God]

One of my Shepards romances Ash in ME1, then leaves her for Jack.  That's an enjoyable arc that produces some unique personal conflict in ME3, and tends to jibe better with Ashley's cameo refusal to rejoin the Normandy in ME2.

 

Yeah, a good way to actually make Ashley somewhat work is to romance her in ME1, then leave her for someone else. The conflict in ME3 isn't really resolved all that well. She just kind of accepts it with almost no fuss past a few comments.

[Iakus]

I'm still not seeing a provided source for this bug.

Sorry, not many forum threads stay up for a decade.  Especially not after a migration.

[themikefest]

In addition, if you play ME1, she only says that line if you are in the general vicinity of a keeper.  She was supposed to say it when you are closer (and more liekly to be able to see it) But try it someplace where you're far away from a Keeper, and you'll notice that bark never comes up.

I've had a few playthroughs where she never says that line. The only times I heard the line from her is when I was close to a keeper next to avina and never heard it when around the other keepers

[Han Shot First]

I'm still not seeing a provided source for this bug.

 

That's because most people don't save every dev comment they stumble across, on the off-chance they might need to cite it as a source years later. And trying to track down seven year old dev statements, particularly when there has been multiple forum migrations now, a'int exactly easy.

 

That the line was bugged isn't exactly uncommon knowledge. It was either posted by Chris L'Etoile on the old forums or reposted from a blog by some fan. Plenty of people who were around at that time saw it.

[Barquiel]

It would still be a weird comment because most keepers we see work on some consoles. That should give her some indication of what they are

[Vazgen]

Here it is: Link
Search for Stormwaltz, it's Chris L'Etoile's username
 
I'll put a quote here:
  

Mei Hikari wrote: »

Personally, it was when she casually mentioned that she couldn't tell the aliens from the animals on the Citadel.

In retrospect, that line was a mistake. If I were able to do it again, I would have written something else. You're not the first person I've seen whose opinion of her turned on that one specific, off-the-cuff line.
 
However, what she was implying there (as gjaustin pointed out) was that if you saw a hanar on a street corner, would you assume it's intelligent? It's not wearing clothes. It's not holding or using any mechanical device. It doesn't talk, it flashes and glows.
 
You could go either way with a hanar, just as you could for a dolphin. Dolphins appear to communicate, but we define them as animals.
 
And as a final point:

Spoiler

Imagine you've never seen either of these species before. Ignoring the human in one picture, would you be able to tell -- without going up and saying hello -- which is an intelligent species, and which is a beast of burden dressed by human handlers?

Dat Google

 

Edit: It seems not to be what you were looking for, but still relevant to the discussion

[God]

Plus, why would a large quadrupedal creature that is clearly walking deliberately to a task and carrying some type of transmitter on its back be considered an animal. 

[God]

Here it is: Link
Search for Stormwaltz, it's Chris L'Etoile's username
 
I'll put a quote here:
  

Dat Google

 

I think L'etoile was making an appeal to human nature as a means for defense of Ashley.

 

And I don't think it flies.

[Stronglav]

"I cant tell the difference between aliens and animals"

 

Well I cant tell the difference between Ashley Williams and that chick from the street for 10 bucks.

 

In fact I think 5 bucks for Ashley Williams is too much.She isn't worth the paper they are printed on.

[dreamgazer]

Imagine you've never seen either of these species before. Ignoring the human in one picture, would you be able to tell -- without going up and saying hello -- which is an intelligent species, and which is a beast of burden dressed by human handlers?

 

 

Depends on if I've ever picked up a book and read a little bit about organisms that aren't humans. 

[AresKeith]

It would still be a weird comment because most keepers we see work on some consoles. That should give her some indication of what they are

 

Animals trained to work?

[Kynare]

When I first saw a hanar shopkeeper in ME1, I thought it was a lamp, and then when it talked, I thought it was some kind of futuristic shop stand with a VI. It was only when I saw it move that I realized it was a living undulating jelly thing.

 

Granted, I'm a primitive from the 21st century, so... that's my excuse.

 

On another note, do we have any opinion on the auto-dialogue in ME3 in which Shepard calls the hanar diplomat a "big stupid jellyfish"? Is that not racist too? (I laughed at first, but it was still rather OOC for my Shep)

[Vazgen]

When I first saw a hanar shopkeeper in ME1, I thought it was a lamp, and then when it talked, I thought it was some kind of futuristic shop stand with a VI. It was only when I saw it move that I realized it was a living undulating jelly thing.

 

Granted, I'm a primitive from the 21st century, so... that's my excuse.

 

On another note, do we have any opinion on the auto-dialogue in ME3 in which Shepard calls the hanar diplomat a "big stupid jellyfish"? Is that not racist too? (I laughed at first, but it was still rather OOC for my Shep)

It differs depends on the Shepard. On a non-import run he doesn't say that (Video). I assume it has something to do with the hanar preacher quest import.

[Han Shot First]

"Big stupid jellyfish."

 

"The First Contact War is totally the same thing as the genophage."

 

Shepard meet Ashley. Ashley meet Shepard.

[Mordokai]

But try it someplace where you're far away from a Keeper, and you'll notice that bark never comes up.

 

The only time I got that line was after meeting with Anderson and Udina in Udina's office, after they leave and you're left with Ashley and Kaidan, both of them overlooking the Presidium from the balcony.

 

Now, I'll admit I'm a little rusty on the specifics, but I'm pretty sure there's not a keeper in sight, let alone in the office itself. Funnily enough, both Ash and Kaidan were overlooking the Presidium, seeing a lot asari, turians, salarians...

 

And while I don't doubt that Cris actually said that, the first time I heard that line from her, I was like...

 

[RatThing]

God, how I hate that the writers put the term "racism" in the game in the first place. And Ashley's writer L'Etoille is actually one to blame for that. Now all the parrots repeating it... . To use this term outside of human society is some bs like saying meat is murder. (Xenophoby might be a more appropriate term when dealing with aliens, though I'd argue that fear of the unknown is a healthy attitude sometimes).

 

Anyways, to answer the original question, I don't really think her romance is really worth that much or gives you more than other romances. You get a few more lines from her and the standard sex scene at the end of the game. These romances only make sence to me if you really like a character and want to have it acknowledged in the game. They're pretty much interchangeable to me. The only exceptions are romancing Liara or Tali. Those romances really add something to the story imo. (Well, if you don't like those characters, tough luck).

Also, you need to consider that since her original writer left, her character is completely different in the third game. In the first game she is a confident woman with a cynical attitude and a sharp mind. Her infamous line about the bear and the dog (in which humanity is supposed to be the dog btw. according to her writer), I consider it one of the most intelligent lines in the trilogy. (L'Etoille somehow derived this line from the story in a Sci Fi book called "the killing star")

In the third game she is an oversensitive drama queen and a drunk who sometimes says really stupid things. Her post Leviathan line is one of the most idiotic lines in the trilogy. I'm not really sad that L'Etoille left (for other reasons) but it is like it is. Ashley doesn't have this special something anymore that she had in the first game. I came to terms with it. Realised that it was actually her cynism that I liked most . Well, in this regard, Javik outperforms her easily. Sometimes the input I actually expected from her came from him, like his speech durning the Rannoch arc. He was practically her replacement. (Before someone considers to give smartass responses. No, I did not romance Javik in the Citadel DLC). So to get back to the original question, if you like Kaidan more you should go with him. Like I said, the romance scenes are mostly interchangeable.      

[God]

God, how I hate that the writers put the term "racism" in the game in the first place. And Ashley's writer L'Etoille is actually one to blame for that. Now all the parrots repeating it... . To use this term outside of human society is some bs like saying meat is murder. (Xenophoby might be a more appropriate term when dealing with aliens, though I'd argue that fear of the unknown is a healthy attitude sometimes). 

 

Don't come crying to me about this. I already gave two alternative terms already.

 

 

The term for it is speciesism.

 

Xenophobia is also a good term.