46 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

I'm nearing the end of my first playthrough as human 2H warrior and I'm considering a melee rogue for my next run and was wondering if Qunari play well in that role? I know that their gear choices are somewhat limited and they tend to be portrayed mostly as warriors. I'm not a 100% min-maxer but I don't want to sink 20 hours into a kit that just isn't going to hold water.

 

Is this a viable combo?

 

Actually its the best combo. Once again the bonus from vitaar is massive on since you get it twice. making the qun rogue the best damage dealer and the one with the best durability of any rogue.

[swk3000]

Actually, Qunari Rogues aren't really much better than other races. Dual Dagger Rogues seem amazing, until you realize how their damage is calculated. See, all Rogue abilities use only the Main-hand weapon to calculate damage. The only 2 exceptions to this are Flank Attack (uses only the Off-hand weapon to calculate damage) and Twin Fangs (two hits, one using only the Main-hand weapon, the other only using the Off-hand weapon). This means that the Dual Dagger Rogue only gets the Vitaar damage bonus once, not twice. And before you point out Twin Fangs, two Vitaar plus two Weapon equals Vitaar plus weapon when calculating percentage, so you still only really get the damage bonus once.

The only way the Vitaar damage bonus becomes amazing is if you're only auto-attacking. Basic attacks alternate between Main-hand and Off-hand when calculating damage, so while each strike only gets the damage once, the speed of the attacks makes the damage add up very quickly. Problem is, if you're only auto-attacking as a Rogue, you're not doing it right. Especially if you're an Assassin; Hidden Blades and Mark of Death can put out so much more damage than auto-attacking ever will.

[deadkai]

But the base damage of daggers is quite low, they get a decent boost from the vitar.

[swk3000]

Anyone have the damage number for a Tier 3 Dagger or Dual Blade crafted with Dragon materials? Masterwork would probably have the highest damage. If someone gives me that number, I'll be able to do the math and tell you how much higher the damage with the Vitaar is versus without.

And keep in mind that I'm talking the actual Damage number, not the DPS number.

[deadkai]

 

Here you go.151 Aoe damage.

[swk3000]

Total damage increase is 12.5%. Note that that number only looks at the damage number of
the Arishok Vitaar and the damage number I was given. It doesn't account for the other offensive bonuses on the Vitaar.

Frankly, I was expecting roughly a 10% increase, so the 12.5% is slightly better than I expected. It's no 25-30% like the Mages get, but it's solid. I expect that Bows will be even lower, as they tend to be more about harder-hitting, slower attacks in this series, but without exact numbers, all I can do is guess.

[Arvaarad]

Actually, Qunari Rogues aren't really much better than other races. Dual Dagger Rogues seem amazing, until you realize how their damage is calculated. See, all Rogue abilities use only the Main-hand weapon to calculate damage. The only 2 exceptions to this are Flank Attack (uses only the Off-hand weapon to calculate damage) and Twin Fangs (two hits, one using only the Main-hand weapon, the other only using the Off-hand weapon). This means that the Dual Dagger Rogue only gets the Vitaar damage bonus once, not twice. And before you point out Twin Fangs, two Vitaar plus two Weapon equals Vitaar plus weapon when calculating percentage, so you still only really get the damage bonus once.

The only way the Vitaar damage bonus becomes amazing is if you're only auto-attacking. Basic attacks alternate between Main-hand and Off-hand when calculating damage, so while each strike only gets the damage once, the speed of the attacks makes the damage add up very quickly. Problem is, if you're only auto-attacking as a Rogue, you're not doing it right. Especially if you're an Assassin; Hidden Blades and Mark of Death can put out so much more damage than auto-attacking ever will.

Of course the % boost is the same, no matter what ability is being used, but if anything it would be more noticeable on abilities rather than on autoattacks.

Hidden Blades + Overkill does 1800% damage total, and an assassin really should be critting every HB hit, so that's multiplied out by about 250-290% (crits are what people are talking about when they're saying it "applies twice"... again, this doesn't change the % damage boost, but it does double or triple the flat damage boost), as well as any dex / willpower / attack % bonus the character has.

So that 19 damage turns into 1000-2000 extra damage on Hidden Blades. Not a huge amount, but nothing to sneeze at. Enemies have cooldowns too, so a 12% damage increase can make a fight 15-20% faster - less chances for the boss to tack on guard or summon adds.

[swk3000]

The issue is that the non-Qunari have access to the Hidden Blades + Overkill combo as well, so their damage is getting multiplied out just the same as the Qunari's.

Example: both Qunari and non-Qunari use two 151 damage daggers, and they do 1.5 times damage on a crit (so 50% Crit Damage). A non-Qunari does 226.5 damage. A Qunari does 255. That's an extra 12.5% damage.

It doesn't matter how far you multiply it out; if it's something that both Qunari and non-Qunari have access to, when you do the math, the Qunari will always end up doing 12.5% more damage. It's why I haven't bothered with anything other than basic attack damage: anything I do will have the same results, so anything more than what I've been doing is just reinforcing what I've already learned.

EDIT: just reread your post, and you basically said what I just said. My bad. The difference between us is that you're focused on the flat value, while I am focused on the percentage. A damage boost of 1000 sounds really big, but if you normally deal damage in the trillions, 1000 damage isn't even worth noticing. Percentages give a better idea of how much extra damage you're actually getting. Flat values don't give you that.

[Forsythia77]

You need guard on hit, especially at the beginning when you are super squishy. Get your tier 2 schematics with masterwork slots as soon as possible and farm for fade touched obsidian (3 guard on hit) or onyx (2 guard on hit).  I think you can get those in Val Royeayx before crap hits the fan in Haven.  Someone posted that there is a fade touched silverite out there that generates 5 guard on hit.  Sadly I've never had that one drop.  The guard on hit really helped mitigate my inquisitor's squishiness when I was a DW rogue.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

With knowledge of the game racial does not matter.

Even if there was a nightmare+ mode which removed racials - an experienced player could still beat the highest difficulty with ease.

[Arvaarad]

The issue is that the non-Qunari have access to the Hidden Blades + Overkill combo as well, so their damage is getting multiplied out just the same as the Qunari's.

Example: both Qunari and non-Qunari use two 151 damage daggers, and they do 1.5 times damage on a crit (so 50% Crit Damage). A non-Qunari does 226.5 damage. A Qunari does 255. That's an extra 12.5% damage.

It doesn't matter how far you multiply it out; if it's something that both Qunari and non-Qunari have access to, when you do the math, the Qunari will always end up doing 12.5% more damage. It's why I haven't bothered with anything other than basic attack damage: anything I do will have the same results, so anything more than what I've been doing is just reinforcing what I've already learned.

EDIT: just reread your post, and you basically said what I just said. My bad. The difference between us is that you're focused on the flat value, while I am focused on the percentage. A damage boost of 1000 sounds really big, but if you normally deal damage in the trillions, 1000 damage isn't even worth noticing. Percentages give a better idea of how much extra damage you're actually getting. Flat values don't give you that.

Yeah, I think we're in violent agreement, haha. Percentage is what ultimately matters, but higher flat values are (on a purely subjective level) more noticeable.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

Well, all of the racial bonuses are defensive (except human), so none of them are particularly useful to a class that should Evade away from all damage.

However, qunari inquisitors can wear vitaar, which raises base damage instead of armor. Base damage is the number before modifiers, buffs, attack speed, and crits are applied. So for rogues, that increase gets multiplied several times over.

A qunari rogue wearing the Arishok Vitaar is going to do significantly more damage than an elf rogue wearing Helm of the Drasca, for example.

I can understand magic damage and archer damage reductions. 
But vitaar? that's interesting. Never really got to play qunari since that file got fucked up

[Arvaarad]

I can understand magic damage and archer damage reductions.
But vitaar? that's interesting. Never really got to play qunari since that file got fucked up

Yeah, vitaar's pretty sweet. You basically trade the helmet's defense value for a base damage increase instead. I'm surprised none of the Highland Ravager speedkills used a qunari inquisitor. The damage buff is less significant with a bow, but it's certainly better than wearing a helmet.

...dangit, you guys, I already did a qunari playthrough, and now I want to do another. I haven't even done my dwarf PT yet. You all are a terrible influence!

[swk3000]

Yeah, vitaar's pretty sweet. You basically trade the helmet's defense value for a base damage increase instead. I'm surprised none of the Highland Ravager speedkills used a qunari inquisitor. The damage buff is less significant with a bow, but it's certainly better than wearing a helmet.

...dangit, you guys, I already did a qunari playthrough, and now I want to do another. I haven't even done my dwarf PT yet. You all are a terrible influence!

The reason no speed kills use Qunari Inquisitor is because no one ever creates a character with the sole intention of doing speed kills. Instead, they make the character they want to role-play, run through the game, then get to the Highland Ravager and decide to see how fast they can kill the thing. Speed kills are a secondary concern.

[deadkai]

The issue is that the non-Qunari have access to the Hidden Blades + Overkill combo as well, so their damage is getting multiplied out just the same as the Qunari's.

Example: both Qunari and non-Qunari use two 151 damage daggers, and they do 1.5 times damage on a crit (so 50% Crit Damage). A non-Qunari does 226.5 damage. A Qunari does 255. That's an extra 12.5% damage.
 

 

Its a little more then than that. The Arishok Vitar has also +8 Percent Attack increase and 4 Willpower(+2 Attack).

http://dragonage.wik...rishok's_Vitaar

So 29/1,51=19,2 percent more damage.

[DomeWing333]

Its a little more then than that. The Arishok Vitar has also +8 Percent Attack increase and 4 Willpower(+2 Attack).

http://dragonage.wik...rishok's_Vitaar

So 29/1,51=19,2 percent more damage.

 

You have to remember to compare that to possible helm bonuses though. A Superior Skirmisher Hat made with Great Bear Hide or Snoufleur Skin can give a +18 bonus to Dexterity. That's a 9% increase to Attack and 18% increase to Critical Damage Bonus, which pretty much evens out the bonuses from the vitaar.

[paintandbass]

You need guard on hit, especially at the beginning when you are super squishy. Get your tier 2 schematics with masterwork slots as soon as possible and farm for fade touched obsidian (3 guard on hit) or onyx (2 guard on hit).  I think you can get those in Val Royeayx before crap hits the fan in Haven.  Someone posted that there is a fade touched silverite out there that generates 5 guard on hit.  Sadly I've never had that one drop.  The guard on hit really helped mitigate my inquisitor's squishiness when I was a DW rogue.

You can't make masterworks before Skyhold.

[SandorClegamer]

Yeah, vitaar's pretty sweet. You basically trade the helmet's defense value for a base damage increase instead. I'm surprised none of the Highland Ravager speedkills used a qunari inquisitor. The damage buff is less significant with a bow, but it's certainly better than wearing a helmet.
...dangit, you guys, I already did a qunari playthrough, and now I want to do another. I haven't even done my dwarf PT yet. You all are a terrible influence!

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=RM7c3BLI-M4

You were saying lol

[Drasanil]

I never understood why you would equip a rogue (or mage) with heavy armour that boosts a warrior's stats which are precisely useless to a non-warrior - you are stuck with strength bonus, which isn't even used in the rogue's damage calculations.

 

You do realise any slot that gives a strength bonus can be used for constitution instead right?

[Exalus]

Too bad there wasnt a mod that multiplied all enemy hp by 10-100 in order to account for insane endgame damage scaling. 

[Arvaarad]

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=RM7c3BLI-M4

You were saying lol

 

I should have specified no-focus speedkills, haha. 

[Digger1967]

I'm nearing the end of my first playthrough as human 2H warrior and I'm considering a melee rogue for my next run and was wondering if Qunari play well in that role? I know that their gear choices are somewhat limited and they tend to be portrayed mostly as warriors. I'm not a 100% min-maxer but I don't want to sink 20 hours into a kit that just isn't going to hold water.

 

Is this a viable combo?

 

At higher levels with the dual bladed daggers? Wow. Total devastation.