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What if the Catalyst appeared since the start of ME3?


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#51
Ithurael

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From the moment the demo came out, people were saying that the kid on Earth wasn't real.  That only Shepard ever seemed to react to him.  That the kid ran across impossible distances, survived an unsurvivable explosion, and failed to even act like a kid ("You can't save me." - line delivered flatly in a factual tone).

 

As far as I'm concerned, we did see the "catalyst" at the start of ME3.  I give it about as much trust in the ending as I did in the beginning or in any of the dreams.  Somethin' ain't right with that kid.  Take the third dream sequence to heart: to embrace that kid is to burn.

 

Now, was there a better way to do this?  I'm not sure.  I'd either accentuate the inherent danger of everything Reaper at the end or I'd have to throw out the existing chase dreams and replace them with attempts at telepathic contact to slowly build up a rapport...  Maybe both.  The "star brat" being on the level or Reaper indoctrination being at play would have to be made clearer in any case.

 

hmmm...not sure...

 

The kid does appear to be real as shown by this snapshot of the memorial wall

http://forum.bioware...eal/?p=10468247

 

unless...bioware goes full meta and shepard is hallucinating and seeing the pictures of the kid on the wall...

 

Just because something does not make sense in this game does not mean there is going to be an in-universe explanation for it lol. ME3 was a rushjob. Things are bound to not make sense and come off as contrived.

 

Ironically the majority of what I saw in YT comments after the demo was "For the Kid" then...after the ending...it was "F*ck that kid"


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#52
Linkenski

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It should be noted that there are more children than just the Vent Kid in the leaked script. There are parts of the script where parents are talking to their children on the Citadel but I presume it was cut because it was too emotionally manipulative like the vent boy and came off as forced.

 

And with that they probably decided to keep vent kid because he's a symbolic plot device rather than a believable fleshed-out character... a rather weak symbolic plot device at that, but whatever.



#53
Esthlos

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Call me crazy here but I don't think it was fellow quarians they were trying to stop. It was the massive number of geth that took up arms against them. You know, the ones that wiped out over 99% of their population in a short time.

I won't call you crazy but I will call you a cherry picker, sorry.

You love to cite lore (which is good), but seem to be prone to leaving out some important parts of it here and there.

Quoting the wiki: (http://masseffect.wi...an#The_Geth_War)

Panicked, the quarian government ordered the immediate termination of all geth in the hopes of preventing a revolution. Many quarians did not want to oppose the geth, but were forced to give up or terminate their geth servants. After the quarian government declared martial law on Rannoch, those who sympathized with the geth were outnumbered, and an indeterminate number of them were either detained or killed. The quarian sympathizers have since been forgotten by their own people, though they are remembered by the geth themselves.


It indeed was fellow quarians that they wanted to stop from trying to protect the Geth.

#54
Valmar

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I never said there wasn't quarians that wanted to protect the geth. You're the one suggesting that the majority of the quarian genocide was caused by quarian in-fighting, though. Whereas I say and the lore says it was the geth.

 

Why is it you'll use less than 1% surviving as an excuse not to consider something genocidal conflict but at the same time will point a 1% (perhaps not literal) that actually sided with geth as an excuse to skirt the blame of billions of deaths onto the quarians rather than put any blame on those adorable tin cans?

 

I can't use 99% of a species being wiped out as evidence of synthetics being in conflict but you can use a marginal number of quarians liking geth as an excuse to overlook the 99% that were killed by the synthetics?

 

The lore explicitly tells us that MORE THAN 99% of the quarians were wiped out by the geth. What more do you want?

 

What about Javik? Are we allowed to still say the reapers wiped out the protheans? I mean, hey, theres Javik, still alive and kicking! Hand-wave away the dead.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not turian. I don't see something as a victory just because one person is left standing. They were wiped out. The quarian's faced genocide during the geth war. Just because less than 1% of them survived doesn't mean I'm going to pretend what happened to them wasn't extreme and counts as genocide, let alone conflict.



#55
Pasquale1234

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I'd like to start by saying this thread, as I understand it, proposes an alternative method of storytelling - so what I've been addressing here is the way the writers presented the story in the main game, irrespective of DLC.
 

Its true that they could have been organic. You're not to first to bring that up and I still find it surprising. What does that change, honestly? It's still synthetics fighting organics. The catalyst never said that they get in conflict for one specific reason and that reason alone. It just says they get into conflict. Which they have in ever single case presented in the series. It doesn't matter what caused the conflict or who is the blame or anything of the sort. None of it changes the fact that its still synthetics in conflict with organics. It doesn't matter what side short first or if the machines could be supplemented with Alien Race B.


It matters because it is the crux of the problem the Catalyst claims to be trying to solve. "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics."

The writers did not demonstrate the existence of that problem imho. The first rule of fiction: Show, don't tell.

Based on what the game actually shows us, I'm more concerned about the Krogan - who did chase the rachni down to a point of extinction - than any synthetic threat. Also - Batarians are running on pure hatred, and may also pose a threat.
 

As for synthetics posing a high threat than organics, well, imo that's self-evident. Hell almost all of the sci-fi movies that deal with this like to point out how powerful machines are. They don't sleep, they don't eat, they don't feel your pity or remorse. They can be hundreds of times stronger, more durable, and infinitely smarter than any organic. IMO the biggest stretch sci-fi does with these types of stories is that they usually suggest humanity actually have hope of beating them. They also tend to nerf the machines in strange ways just give the human forces leeway in beating them.


"Appeal to genre", might be an apt description for this argument. There are always 'stretches' in fiction - you've identified one, and I would suggest that the idea that they would ever be motivated to start a war with organics is another. As has been suggested elsewhere (by lakus, I believe), they may be perfectly content to sit in a server calculating pi for eternity. Fiction - and fictional species - are designed to create conflict.

Here's the thing: as organics, we might appreciate spending some time in, say, Hawaii - but for a synthetic, is there any difference between actually being there versus downloading and processing data about it? The Hammerhead missions sort of pointed out these differences with its comments about organics taking note of scenic vistas.

Again, I'm talking about what is presented in this story in the MEU.
 

Beyond that though one thing to consider is the fact that synthetic conflict is a controllable variable. Organics will fight with organics. Its inevitable, can't really be controlled. You can't keep race A from fighting with race B. However synthetics are not natural. They are created by organics. You may not be able to stop organics from killing each other but you certainly can prevent synthetics from killing organics. How? Easy. Don't make synthetics. They are not a natural phenomenon. Long as you keep from making them you don't have to worry about it. You can remove that variable from the table.


Yep.

But here's the scenario: reapers leave the relays and citadel for organics to find so their technology will evolve down the paths desired by the reapers. Reapers hide out in dark space, removing all traces of their existence between cycles. At no point do they attempt to prevent the 'problem' from occuring. It gives me the impression of an ulterior motive.

Like maybe: "Like a cleansing fire, we restore balance. New life, both organic and synthetic, can once again flourish"

The Leviathans who programmed the original intelligence did not prioritize prevention in its algorithms - that would have been too easy. It sounds like they did include some ability for self-correction, since the Catalyst mentions having tried other solutions in the past - but ultimately, the thing gets stuck on endless harvest cycles. Which makes me wonder if bringing forth a steady stream of new life forms may have been one of the goals with which it was programmed. And, hey - if you're a Leviathan, having a wider array of lifeforms to enthrall would be a good thing.

Of course, the 'intelligence' (Catalyst) may have changed over time, and is no longer what the Leviathans originally programmed.

You'd think the Leviathans could have kept their thralls from creating synthetics that would eventually cause problems without needing to create a special intelligence to solve their problem.
 

The geth wouldn't be hired like mercs. Geth are... it's complicated, okay? Lol.


Yeah, I remember the discussions with Tali explaining how they network and get smarter when there are more of them. Poor Shepard didn't seem to understand - lol.

Still, I don't see any reason why Saren could not have worked with any other merc group - and he did also have some Krogan mercs. He had the power of indoctrination on his side.
 

The majority of the geth believe they should achieve their own future and not accept the reaper's aid. They believe the journey is as important as the destination, basically. A small fraction of them however believe they should accept the reaper's offer. Neither result is an error, both are right. They accepted each others decision and the heretics were allowed to leave. They basically split based around philological differences.


Interesting, isn't it, that synthetics can so easily tolerate differences. Ahem.
 

Theoretically you could reprogram them. Theoretically you could reprogram organics too, though. I'm not sure one is necessarily any easier than the other. So while possible in theory the practically of it is in question, imo. The difference between the two is that with AI, unlike organics, reprogramming them might be your only hope for victory. Where as organics you can get victory over in a great many different ways.


The idea that synthetics have no exploitable weaknesses may be a bit of a stretch, at least with our current understanding.

I've always found it a bit odd that geth environments have no air, and they are presented as thriving in a vacuum. It would imply that they are impervious to changes in pressure, and don't need air - or even radiant - cooling. They also need a power source and may be affected by electromagnetic energy and other disruptions (we have disruptor ammo, after all). Their platforms may be destroyed with conventional weapons, and their organic enemies could have synthetic allies on their side.
 

True but the lore is lore. The story presents it as the truth. Assuming they're all lying to us is headcanon. I go with lore, myself.

This is hardly the first time the series has done this, though. Lazarus, just for example. How does that work? Just does. You could go through the entire trilogy with a fine comb and find many examples similar to this.


Don't get me started about the Lazarus Project - lol.

What I'm saying is that the Catalyst puts forth some exposition that doesn't gel with what we've been shown in-game. They're violating the "Show, don't tell" rule. It's a lot of the reason why so many players went "WTF?" when they met the Catalyst.
 

They're certainly arrogant. I'm also sure they do view things very differently from us lesser species. Though I don't see how any of that could actually influence their observation of the pattern. The pattern isn't exactly complicated: organics races build machines, machines turn on them and wipe them out. They never really said what the cause of it was. Just that the conflict kept happening. That's a simple enough observation that I'm not sure how it could misconstrued by perspective.


It would certainly impact their value system and judgements, and also influence the logic they built into the 'intelligence'.
 

I hope you had a pleasant experience throughout. It's my favorite game series. :P


Thanks. If I didn't like it, I prolly wouldn't be here.
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#56
Linkenski

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I will give the the writing some merit though because the Catalyst says "without us to stop it, Synthetics would destroy all organics" instead of "...will destroy all organics" and you can take it either way but I take it as a past-tense sentence so he's refering to the original problem regardless of what happens now. They are simply not taking any chances. They made the cycle and are not looking back to ensure it "never happens" like he says.

 

The problem then, for me, is that we still have to choose the 3 options and not at least tell him that we find it hard to believe that our future bodes chaos between organic and inorganic, because really, regardless of the morning war or ME1 in general what we see in ME3 just seems to indicate that synthetic vs organics future is brighter than ever... and then the Catalyst appears and contradicts what we see with what he assumes just because his creators had  seen it in the past (and now he's just following the directive they programmed him with)-- and whether Shepard agrees or disagrees with the solutions he doesn't ever seem to disagree with the assumption about synthetics and organics and that's where everything falls apart for me.

 

It doesn't matter if the inevitable response would've been "You have the choices I offer you, or you are on your own. This is a bargain." and you'd have to choose or refuse regardless... just the fact that the writing doesn't acknowledge logic on thin ice is where it stops being solid writing.


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#57
ZerebusPrime

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Just because something does not make sense in this game does not mean there is going to be an in-universe explanation for it lol. ME3 was a rushjob. Things are bound to not make sense and come off as contrived.

 

 

I am quick to admit that the way I interpreted Mass Effect 3 has logic that borders on Last Thursday-ism.



#58
Esthlos

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I never said there wasn't quarians that wanted to protect the geth. You're the one suggesting that the majority of the quarian genocide was caused by quarian in-fighting, though. Whereas I say and the lore says it was the geth.

Au contraire, I'm simply stating that it's impossible that the Geth killed 99% of the Quarians if the Quarians already killed part of their own.

This is simple math.
 

Why is it you'll use less than 1% surviving as an excuse not to consider something genocidal conflict but at the same time will point a 1% (perhaps not literal) that actually sided with geth as an excuse to skirt the blame of billions of deaths onto the quarians rather than put any blame on those adorable tin cans?
[...]

A genocide is the systematic destruction of a group.
When you kill the ones that are shooting on you without you provoking them first, then that's self defence, not genocide.
Arming all your civilians and having them go fight in a war you started is Darwin-award-worthy folly, not genocide.

This is simply the meaning of the words.
 

The lore explicitly tells us that MORE THAN 99% of the quarians were wiped out by the geth. What more do you want?

To know how many Quarians were there before the Geth.
110% of the Quarian population?
125%?

#59
Vazgen

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What's the point of this discussion?

Here is what the lore says. Taken directly from Mass Effect: Revelation (page 116):

"The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile."

 

You can also find this in the same place:

Experts from nearly every species predicted that true artificial intelligence—such as a synthetic neural network with the ability to absorb and critically analyze knowledge—would grow exponentially the instant it learned to learn. It would teach itself; quickly surpassing the capabilities of its organic creators and growing beyond their control. Every single species in the galaxy relied on computers that were linked into the vast data network of the extranet for transport, trade, defense, and basic survival. If a rogue AI program was somehow able to access and influence those data networks, the results would be catastrophic.
Conventional theory held that the doomsday scenario wasn’t merely possible, it was unavoidable. According to the Council, the emergence of an artificial intelligence was the single greatest threat to organic life in the galaxy.

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#60
Esthlos

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Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile."[/i]

Listen, Killed_By_Geth+Killed_By_Quarians+Dead_For_Other_Causes+Survivors=100%
This is for sure, because it can't be otherwise. This is a rule of math, you can't handwave this away.

Now, if Killed_By_Geth=99%, then Killed_By_Quarians+Dead_For_Other_Causes+Survivors=1%

Since in ME3 we're shown that if you don't shoot at them, the Geth won't shoot at you (Shepard only needs to get the Quarians to stop shooting in order to achieve peace), and since we can safely assume that the Quarians who sided with the Geth under the Martial Law weren't also shooting at the Geth (which is obvious), then none of the disobedients were in that 99%.

So either
A) the first equation is false in the Mass Effect universe, as a population can exceed 100% of its members, or

B) the Geth didn't kill 99% of the Quarians, or

C) the Quarians declared Martial Law in response to the rebellion of a grand total of less than 1% of their population (given how they act in ME3, such stupidity might actually be in-character for them), or

D) it's another case of synthesis-level "didn't think this through at all and now you're stuck with this bill schitt".

There aren't other possibilities.

A) is handwaving the problem away.
B) was my point exactly.
C) doesn't make the Geth genocidal machines (they still simply fought back against the ones who attacked and tried to obliterate them) - it only makes the Quarians appear even dumber.
D) is very, very sad for the franchise, and doesn't even solve nor handwave the problem.
 

Conventional theory held that the doomsday scenario wasn’t merely possible, it was unavoidable. According to the Council, the emergence of an artificial intelligence was the single greatest threat to organic life in the galaxy.

We're always at the same problem: we're repeatedly being told this, but always shown the opposite.
Does logic too work backwards in the Mass Effect universe?
Or perchance does the Council tend to hire witless idiots*?

*which at least would explain the "Reapers? we dismissed that" line you get from the Council.

#61
Vazgen

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Killed_By_Geth =/= 99%.

Survived_the_war = less_than_1%

 

Here is what happened. The quarians created the geth, they started to become sentient, quarian government ordered the destruction of all geth. Some quarians opposed the decision. Geth armed themselves. Quarians put their worlds under the martial law. Those who still protected the geth were detained or, in some cases, killed. Eventually the geth won forcing the quarians to flee.

As a result of the war only less than 1% of the quarian population survived and Rannoch ecology was ruined.

 

Now, the logs at the geth server show the quarians to be determined to minimize losses. Protesters are warned multiple times by the authorities. I find it hard to believe that there will be a sizable amount of deaths as a result of such conflict. 

 

The Geth War is referred to as genocide by multiple in-game sources. If you want to label it otherwise, be my guest, but don't claim that this perspective is the correct one and the game contradicts itself by not suiting your headcanon. 

 

Finally, the Catalyst never says that the synthetic/organic conflict arises from genocidal tendencies of the synthetics. What it says is that the conflict will always arise.

"The created will always rebel against their creators" - true in all in-game cases (unless you count basic VIs like Avina or Glyph).

"Without us to stop it, the synthetics would destroy all organics." - assumption. Impossible to prove as the only proof is the destruction of all organic life. "We created the cycle so that never happens." Geth War can serve as both a supporting and contradicting evidence of its assumption. From one PoV it resulted in the death of 99% of quarian population. On the other hand - 1% survived. 

What's important is that you are not required to believe the Catalyst. The Destroy option is, in fact, rejection of his assertions about the destruction of all organic life by synthetics.

 

As for being shown, we, as players, stop those threats from manifesting. The fact that we are able to stop them prematurely does not mean the problem does not exist. Even more, the problem's existence is the reason for the protagonist's involvement.



#62
Valmar

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It matters because it is the crux of the problem the Catalyst claims to be trying to solve. "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics."

The writers did not demonstrate the existence of that problem imho. The first rule of fiction: Show, don't tell.

Based on what the game actually shows us, I'm more concerned about the Krogan - who did chase the rachni down to a point of extinction - than any synthetic threat. Also - Batarians are running on pure hatred, and may also pose a threat.

 

As I explained earlier it is of my opinion that we are taking the catalyst too literal. According to the pattern organics will eventually create synthetics. These synthetics will eventually turn against their creators and wipe them out. Synthetics will destroy all organics because all advanced races will eventually get wiped out by their own creation. Not necessarily that one single creation will exterminate all life in the galaxy.

 

Our cycle has an example of one such conflict. Even though some hand-wave it away, the geth brought genocide down upon their creators, the quarians, and wiped out over 99% of the population. They serve as an example since the first game of the danger artifact intelligence can present. So much so that the council has a strict ban on such research to prevent it from happening again. Though we see how well that works out.

 

I'll agree with the sentiment that the conflict should had been given more spotlight than it gets in the trilogy if they wanted to make it the primary goal at the end, though. I also do acknowledge the serious threat krogan and batarians are. I never meant to imply that synthetics are our only concern or that other organics cannot also be a danger. Again, context, I was only arguing against the claim that synthetic-organic conflict was never present in the game until the end.

 

 

"Appeal to genre", might be an apt description for this argument. There are always 'stretches' in fiction - you've identified one, and I would suggest that the idea that they would ever be motivated to start a war with organics is another. As has been suggested elsewhere (by lakus, I believe), they may be perfectly content to sit in a server calculating pi for eternity. Fiction - and fictional species - are designed to create conflict.
 

 

They certainly might. Though again, context, I was only arguing that the conflict was there. The writer's motivations of such conflict isn't relevant to that. People  tend to get hung up on this because they don't feel it would be true in our reality. To which I say: irrelevant. Mass Effect is a fictional universe. Within this fictional universe there exists a pattern of the created turning on the creators. We may not like it or agree that it has to be that way because we think AI should be uncaring of conflict, but that is the story the chose to go with.

 

I don't usually argue what is "true" in reality here. I'm just going off what is in the MEU. Far as I know its impossible for genetics to store your memories, knowledge and experience onto hardware or to transfer thoughts or upload minds to computers or a great many things MEU has going on. It being real in our reality doesn't change the fact that its real in the MEU, though.

 

Beyond that, as you touched on, the notion that the created will always turn on their creators isn't even original or unique to Mass Effect. Yet people get hung up on it as if its absolutely unheard of. This is one of the oldest sci-fi tropes in the books.

 

If asked what I think would be true in our reality I can only answer with: I don't know. To the best of my knowledge we have never made or encounter sentient AI. I have no idea how it would behave. I wouldn't think it would be violent but years of sci fi movies and shows have taught me that its a deeper subject than that. They could be violent and not even perceive it as violence. How often have they made the AI turn on us to save us from ourselves? I have no idea how an AI would think. I don't believe anyone could really know. They're truly alien from us.
 

 

Here's the thing: as organics, we might appreciate spending some time in, say, Hawaii - but for a synthetic, is there any difference between actually being there versus downloading and processing data about it? The Hammerhead missions sort of pointed out these differences with its comments about organics taking note of scenic vistas.

Again, I'm talking about what is presented in this story in the MEU.
 

 

Yeah... I fail to see the significance here. How does that change the fact that there is conflict with them in the lore?

 

 

But here's the scenario: reapers leave the relays and citadel for organics to find so their technology will evolve down the paths desired by the reapers. Reapers hide out in dark space, removing all traces of their existence between cycles. At no point do they attempt to prevent the 'problem' from occuring. It gives me the impression of an ulterior motive.

Like maybe: "Like a cleansing fire, we restore balance. New life, both organic and synthetic, can once again flourish"

The Leviathans who programmed the original intelligence did not prioritize prevention in its algorithms - that would have been too easy. It sounds like they did include some ability for self-correction, since the Catalyst mentions having tried other solutions in the past - but ultimately, the thing gets stuck on endless harvest cycles. Which makes me wonder if bringing forth a steady stream of new life forms may have been one of the goals with which it was programmed. And, hey - if you're a Leviathan, having a wider array of lifeforms to enthrall would be a good thing.

Of course, the 'intelligence' (Catalyst) may have changed over time, and is no longer what the Leviathans originally programmed.

You'd think the Leviathans could have kept their thralls from creating synthetics that would eventually cause problems without needing to create a special intelligence to solve their problem.
 

 

They prevent the problem by coming in after 50k years and cleaning house. The catalyst tried other ways in the past. This was just the most efficient. The lore tells us why the leviathans built it and according to them it still serves its purpose.

 

As for Leviathan controlling their thralls, personally I don't think the Leviathans can control entire species generally speaking. Unlike the reapers the Leviathan's control is more absolute, more direct. They probably controlled select members of the society and ordered their thralls through intermediaries. Such as Harbinger did with the colllector general.

 

"We could not protect them from themselves."

 

Still, I don't see any reason why Saren could not have worked with any other merc group - and he did also have some Krogan mercs. He had the power of indoctrination on his side.
 

 

He could have. Though I don't think Saren actually had any say in the geth joining up with him. Nor do I believe any other merc group would have had the resources required to storm the citadel defenses. Indoctrination takes time. We can't all be Cerberus.

 

 

The idea that synthetics have no exploitable weaknesses may be a bit of a stretch, at least with our current understanding.

 

 

You need to view it relative to our weakness. We're not all krogan. Most organics are squishy things can be killed off with literally any number of things. Things that can kill us can go on for as long as your imagination can keep up. There is practically no limit.

 

 

What I'm saying is that the Catalyst puts forth some exposition that doesn't gel with what we've been shown in-game. They're violating the "Show, don't tell" rule. It's a lot of the reason why so many players went "WTF?" when they met the Catalyst.
 

 

This is well we disagree. I don't think they put as much emphasis on it as they should have given its significance to the ending but everything we've seen does sit within the borders of what it suggests. They did show it. They just didn't put a spotlight on it. Not until the end, anyway. Which is a problem.

 

It would certainly impact their value system and judgements, and also influence the logic they built into the 'intelligence'.
 

 

What would any of that have to do with the pattern? Organics make machines that turn on the organics. That's it. Short and simple. What kind of bias could warp that? They don't argue the reason for the conflict. They merely observe it was there.

 

 

Au contraire, I'm simply stating that it's impossible that the Geth killed 99% of the Quarians if the Quarians already killed part of their own.

This is simple math.
 
A genocide is the systematic destruction of a group.
When you kill the ones that are shooting on you without you provoking them first, then that's self defence, not genocide.
Arming all your civilians and having them go fight in a war you started is Darwin-award-worthy folly, not genocide.

This is simply the meaning of the words.
 
To know how many Quarians were there before the Geth.
110% of the Quarian population?
125%?

 

Wow. This really is the Citadel, isn't it?

 

I'm not really in the mood to get into this type of frivolous debate with you. Especially when all I am doing is parroting lore yet you act as though the canon lore is wrong. Don't even get me started on the hand-waving of genocide. I'll leave this argument to Vazgen, he summed it up all better than I could anyway.



#63
Esthlos

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Killed_By_Geth =/= 99%

My point exactly: stating that the Geth killed 99% of the Quarians is incorrect.
 

The Geth War is referred to as genocide by multiple in-game sources. If you want to label it otherwise, be my guest, but don't claim that this perspective is the correct one and the game contradicts itself by not suiting your headcanon.

Genocide is a word with a very definite meaning:
"the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group." (http://dictionary.re...browse/genocide)

group "Quarians" = national, racial, political, or cultural group
group "anyone that is shooting at the Geth" =/= national, racial, political, or cultural group

If different sources label the Morning War a genocide then they're not using the english language, or they're randomly using words, or maybe "genocide" has a different meaning in the Mass Effect universe.

It's really as simple as that.
 

What it says is that the conflict will always arise.

Which, again, is vague enough to always be true on some level, regardless of what actually happens.
This is a word trick frequently used by psychics to scam people.
 

"The created will always rebel against their creators"

"Without us to stop it, the synthetics would destroy all organics."

The problem being the planet-sized non sequitur between these two sentences.
 

"Without us to stop it, the synthetics would destroy all organics." - Impossible to prove as the only proof is the destruction of all organic life.

But easily disproven: just give synthetics the chance to destroy all organic life and see if they do it.

This is exactly what happened at the end of the Morning War, and the Geth chose to let the fleeing Quarians live.

Geth killing those that were actively trying to disable them cannot be used as a proof of "synthetics would destroy all organics" because it's clearly shown that it was for self defence, and was only initiated after many Geth were killed already.

What is significative though is that the Geth didn't go all the way.
By a logical point of view, killing the fleeing Quarians was a sensible action, as it would have removed a potential future threat.

Still the Geth purposely let the survivors escape, without following them, and after that they never waged any kind of war against anyone until a Reaper came along and created the heretics.
 

As for being shown, we, as players, stop those threats from manifesting. The fact that we are able to stop them prematurely does not mean the problem does not exist. Even more, the problem's existence is the reason for the protagonist's involvement.

I recall the opposite actually... we always arrive when all is done, mostly with the goal to clean up any surviving synthetics.

#64
Vazgen

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Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group.

Quarians are an ethnic group. 99% (or whatever, say, 60%, which is too low IMO) is a significant part of that ethnic group. So yes, it's a genocide.

 

The geth pursued the quarians for some distance from Rannoch. The quarians fled through mass relay and we know that they are not possible to track that way. You can go with "the geth let them go" or with "the quarians barely escaped" both would be true.

 

Like I said, reasons to start the conflict have no importance here. The result is what's important. If you kill millions in self-defense, they'll still be dead.

 

We might be playing different games then.


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#65
Farangbaa

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1 or 2 AI choosing to not destroy all their creators is, surely, statistically insignificant over the billions of years the Catalyst and the Leviathan have collected data.

A few centuries of non-open war in which Geth and Quarians still kill each other and a few weeks of peace will surely not change this.
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#66
Valmar

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1 or 2 AI choosing to not destroy all their creators is, surely, statistically insignificant over the billions of years the Catalyst and the Leviathan have collected data.

A few centuries of non-open war in which Geth and Quarians still kill each other and a few weeks of peace will surely not change this.

 

The reaction of many:

 


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#67
Esthlos

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Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group.
Quarians are an ethnic group. 99% (or whatever, say, 60%, which is too low IMO) is a significant part of that ethnic group. So yes, it's a genocide.

Nope, it's a genocide if being part of that racial group is the reason for the killing, and not just an accident: the Geth would've killed Batarians if they were the ones attacking them, or Humans if they were the ones attacking them.

Anyway, I can't help but notice that you decided to focus on the semantic objection while leaving behind that "planet-sized non sequitur" affair.
 

The geth pursued the quarians for some distance from Rannoch. The quarians fled through mass relay and we know that they are not possible to track that way. You can go with "the geth let them go" or with "the quarians barely escaped" both would be true.

Nope.
In Mass Effect 3, in the Geth Server mission, we're clearly shown that the former is true and not the latter.
 

1 or 2 AI choosing to not destroy all their creators is, surely, statistically insignificant over the billions of years the Catalyst and the Leviathan have collected data.

A few centuries of non-open war in which Geth and Quarians still kill each other and a few weeks of peace will surely not change this.

We've already been there: the problem is that what is shown in-game is not compatible with this we're told and with the rest we're told.

Either the Leviathan (and by extention the Catalyst, since it was the Leviathans who made it this way) is wrong*, or it is lying, or there is a huge problem with the writing of Mass Effect 3.

*Observation dating back in the Leviathans' dominion is biased because all in the observed sample were Leviathans' thralls, and subseguent observations are likely to be just as biased because if the Reapers are guiding the developement of civilizations always along the same paths, as we're told in-game, then this "guiding" is likely to be a very strong element if not the prime cause of the conflict that the Catalyst says it's been observing.

#68
Farangbaa

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Then destroy it. That's the 'I don't believe you' option.
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#69
Vazgen

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Nope, it's a genocide if being part of that racial group is the reason for the killing, and not just an accident: the Geth would've killed Batarians if they were the ones attacking them, or Humans if they were the ones attacking them.

Anyway, I can't help but notice that you decided to focus on the semantic objection while leaving behind that "planet-sized non sequitur" affair.
 
Nope.
In Mass Effect 3, in the Geth Server mission, we're clearly shown that the former is true and not the latter.

So, if some country attacks and defending country wipes them out with all the civilians, it's not a genocide? OK.

 

I'm fine with the Catalyst making broad statements. Not sure why you see a problem there.

 

The server mission is presented to you by a clearly biased and lying geth unit. And even that biased information mentions geth pursuing the quarians for about hundred kilometers from Rannoch. Of course, if you take all it says as granted, you'll get a different perspective. We'll have to agree to disagree on that


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#70
Esthlos

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So, if some country attacks and defending country wipes them out with all the civilians, it's not a genocide? OK.

Correct: if a country arms its civilians and sends them along their troops to attack another one, wiping them out is not genocide.
If anything, it's proof that the attacking country is ruled by ruthless morons.
 

I'm fine with the Catalyst making broad statements. Not sure why you see a problem there.

Because it contributes to a very underwhelming ending, in my opinion.
 

The server mission is presented to you by a clearly biased and lying geth unit. And even that biased information mentions geth pursuing the quarians for about hundred kilometers from Rannoch. Of course, if you take all it says as granted, you'll get a different perspective. We'll have to agree to disagree on that

Why do you think Legion lied?

Anyway, consider that in ME3 the only condition needed for the war to be over is to get the Quarians to stop firing.
After receiving the Reaper-based upgrades, the Geth are again able to wipe the Quarians out.

Yet they only do so if the Quarians keep fighting.

They choose, for the second time, to not kill their creators if not forced to.

#71
Vazgen

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Correct: if a country arms its civilians and sends them along their troops to attack another one, wiping them out is not genocide.
If anything, it's proof that the attacking country is ruled by ruthless morons.
 
Because it contributes to a very underwhelming ending, in my opinion.
 
Why do you think Legion lied?

Anyway, consider that in ME3 the only condition needed for the war to be over is to get the Quarians to stop firing.
After receiving the Reaper-based upgrades, the Geth are again able to wipe the Quarians out.

Yet they only do so if the Quarians keep fighting.

They choose, for the second time, to not kill their creators if not forced to.

There is no information on quarians arming their civilians in the Geth War. That's your assumption.

You can see the quarians trying to minimize civilian losses. Arming civilians does not go well with that.

 

Well, it does not, in my opinion.

 

Yes, they stop. Because the quarians are no longer a threat to them. Especially after agreeing to submit to Shepard's "keep firing and they'll wipe you out". It's peace coming out of the barrel of a gun. 


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#72
Esthlos

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There is no information on quarians arming their civilians in the Geth War. That's your assumption.
You can see the quarians trying to minimize civilian losses. Arming civilians does not go well with that.

Good point.
I'm assuming that because of how promptly they arm their Civilian fleet in ME3, but I don't actually know if they did that back then too.
 

Well, it does not, in my opinion.

Why not?

(I'm assuming that this part of your answer refers to "Because it contributes to a very underwhelming ending, in my opinion" and not to "Why do you think Legion lied?"... please consider numbering the part of my post you're answering to and the related answer if you're not going to use quotes to divide it otherwise)
 

Yes, they stop. Because the quarians are no longer a threat to them. Especially after agreeing to submit to Shepard's "keep firing and they'll wipe you out". It's peace coming out of the barrel of a gun.

Which, as far as I know, is not exactly a synonim for "synthetics would destroy all organics if given the chance"... quite the opposite, actually.

#73
Vazgen

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Why not?

(I'm assuming that this part of your answer refers to "Because it contributes to a very underwhelming ending, in my opinion" and not to "Why do you think Legion lied?"... please consider numbering the part of my post you're answering to and the related answer if you're not going to use quotes to divide it otherwise)

OK. I don't think it contributes to a very underwhelming ending because I think that this way is precisely how a billion+ year-old machine intelligence would converse with 29/31 year-old organic. Its assumptions and decisions are based on an overwhelming amount of empirical evidence. It describes the conflict and its task with utmost confidence and authority, exactly how it should be IMO. I actually quite like the way the dialogue of the Catalyst is written.

 


Which, as far as I know, is not exactly a synonym for "synthetics would destroy all organics if given the chance"... quite the opposite, actually.

Which is not what the Catalyst says. It says - "Without us to stop it, the synthetics will destroy all organics". It says nothing about the time needed for that to happen.


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#74
New Kid

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The catalyst only bugged me because it took the form of the child that Shepard was forced to care about, as well as it being needlessly vague and Shepard not asking enough questions. When it appeared is not the issue, the choices were foreshadowed throughout the game and the is what is important. (they messed the choices up though)


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#75
Linkenski

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I agree, but simultaneously a couple of theories I've seen interpreted the Catalyst as "god" and that the child appearance plays into that symbolism... the reason why I like seeing the Catalyst as god is that the Reapers are effectively the gods of the Mass Effect universe. They created the mass relays and the citadel that collected and formed galactic civilization in the long run; they actively controlled our growth and as Sovereign says "you develop along the paths we desire" AKA the reapers are our gods -- which is also why I find the jungle planet fitting... because the reapers, and our gods' purpose is gone or they are just gone (depending on the ending) and the jungle planet is like a new Garden of Eden etc. etc.

 

But yeah, the face-value aspect sucks hard. There's no reason for Shepard to almost break down by seeing one child die at the beginning and using that as the Catalyst (appearing as something Shepard can recognize as valuable and relate to) is cheesy.