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[Ithurael]

OT:

 

Won't lie...my favorite game of 2012! At the very least it has the best mission of 2012, some of the best gameplay, and by far one of the greatest villain portrayals in a video game I have truly ever seen.

[Linkenski]

I played about half of that game and then I threw out out the window.

 

Everyone is talking about how deep a villain Vaas is. Like, really? All he did was quote Einstein and yell incoherent profanity at the screen.

[Vazgen]

I actually didn't play it. The quote seems fitting the BSN though. We all "do the same fu*king thing over and over again expecting sh*t to change". One side tries to rationalize and defend the endings. Other side tries to bash it all the time. We are all insane.

The game is almost 3 years old. Surely there are other topics about the trilogy that interest Mass Effect fans.

[Linkenski]

Yeah, well... Perhaps ME4 will help people get on their good side again if it continues or reestablishes the IP in a way we can get behind. But that ending to ME3... you are right, it's like a wound that will never heal.

[Vazgen]

Yeah, well... Perhaps ME4 will help people get on their good side again if it continues or reestablishes the IP in a way we can get behind. But that ending to ME3... you are right, it's like a wound that will never heal.

Of course it won't heal, you keep opening it every day. 

 

Danny Bryce: The old man you just killed, he told me a war isn't over 'til both sides say it is. I'm telling you now, this is over for me.

Spike Logan: Really? And what? You want me to say, “Me too"? And then it's happy ever after.

Danny Bryce: Your choice.

Spike Logan: You know, when I got this (*shows injured eye*), they told me my war was over. I told them they were full of sh*t. Now I'm telling it to you.

Danny Bryce: Let it go.

 

 

Really mate, it's time to move on. 

[Cheviot]

One side tries to rationalize and defend the endings. Other side tries to bash it all the time. We are all insane.

The game is almost 3 years old. Surely there are other topics about the trilogy that interest Mass Effect fans.

Unfortunately not.  The conflict is inevitable.  I guess the only solution would be to create an A.I. that would periodically delete all the posts on BSN.  Maybe one time between these "cycles", a person would emerge that would make the factions of BSN see that arguments over the endings were not inevitable, that we could, for example talk about the guy who walks around the Normandy saluting, or imagine the advances in home furnishings we'll see in the next Mass Effect.

[Deathsaurer]

Unfortunately not.  The conflict is inevitable.  I guess the only solution would be to create an A.I. that would periodically delete all the posts on BSN.  Maybe one time between these "cycles", a person would emerge that would make the factions of BSN see that arguments over the endings were not inevitable, that we could, for example talk about the guy who walks around the Normandy saluting, or imagine the advances in home furnishings we'll see in the next Mass Effect.

The AI would quickly get fed up with the irrational behavior and hack everyones computers to prevent them from logging in the forum thus ending the cycle. Only then could a chosen one arise to save us all.

[Valmar]

Yeah, well... Perhaps ME4 will help people get on their good side again if it continues or reestablishes the IP in a way we can get behind.

 

I'm immensely skeptical that ME4 will do anything to appease those who are still sore about the ending. Too many people are expecting and hoping (wrongly, might I add) that ME4 will answer questions about ME3, that it will bring "closure" to Shepard or that it will do something with Shepard. It's like no matter how many times Bioware directly comes out and clarifies no, no, no there are still people who hold out "hope" that they will. Then they'll be all pissed and upset when they get the game and find out it doesn't.

 

It real question is how long will it take for someone to compare ME4 to rape, too. The amount of irrational, mouth-foaming rage over Mass Effect can get pretty damn ridiculous. I'm really hoping all those who claim ME3 murdered their family and children really follow through with their threat to not buy ME4. Maybe then there will be some hope of this seething rage not spilling over into the ME4 forums.

[dorktainian]

The ending of ME3 is in a literal sense the biggest pile of donkey doodoo.  You have to go all fanfiction or meta just to even try to understand that carcrash.

[Valmar]

The ending of ME3 is in a literal sense the biggest pile of donkey doodoo.  You have to go all fanfiction or meta just to even try to understand that carcrash.

 

Nope. People didn't even need Leviathan or the EC to understand it. As proven by the analysis pages done before all that released where they clearly understood it and pieced it together.

[wright1978]

In my opinion if the goal of the breath scene and hesitation by LI to consider Shepard dead as proof that he survived why not just give us one slide on the otherwise great slideshow showing them together living a more normal life now that the war is over?

 

There's innumerable ways they could have provided satisfying clarification and closure in regards of the live Shep scenario in the EC. The fact that they considered using a memorial scene involving Normandy crew designed for dead Shep scenarios as the means is truly bizarre imo, not least because it involved treating anyone with a LI not on the Normandy as 2nd class scum. It makes zero practical sense either for the crew to be holding a memorial service without evidence Shep was dead and even less sense for random squaddie(or Normandy LI) to suddenly encounter psychic insight in the middle of it. All comes across as extremely lazy, highly insulting and a stubborn attempt not to accept any real competition for their desired railroaded Shep's death vision.

[Linkenski]

I'm sure I'll end up talking about the ending and try to correct someones misconception again at some point or another. Bit crazy since it so rarely changes anything but its the curse of being a fanboy I suppose. Though I take solace in knowing I'm not alone in this problem. Regardless of our positions or feelings about Mass Effect all of us here are clearly rather attached to Mass Effect to be still be talking about it. Even if some actually compare it to rape (rather recently too, if you can believe that) due to the ending, clearly they liked something about it if they can STILL be whining about it.

We're browsing the Bioware forums... ugh, what do people expect, like, seriously? I will admit I'm probably one of the primary responsible people for beating the dead horse of the ending in 2015 here on BSN but I'll point you to the topic title here and its creator: not me. I was merely asserting my own standpoint to OP and I know what you think, and I understand it -- I just disagree with it, if you'll let me.

 

 

Nope. People didn't even need Leviathan or the EC to understand it. As proven by the analysis pages done before all that released where they clearly understood it and pieced it together.

I can agree on this. The attention to detail is mostly there in the Catalyst's choice of words right down to the his tenses.

 

Personally I needed just the Extended Cut to see what Bioware was trying to say but at first I felt like they changed some subtleties to spin the words a bit differently and thus changing the context. I didn't need Leviathan to figure out anythin, but it merely confirmed my interpretation.

 

...but understanding the intent or concept of the ending well does still not make the ending a good literary piece of ending a trilogy, and for the last time, it stil doesn't explain why Shepard can't challenge the Catalyst's assumption by mentioning the outcome of Rannoch. The fact stil stands. The Reapers current cycle is different and the only evidence we have that things will go awry is the Reapers themselves a billion-year old example of a time when circumstances were much different than what they're looking to be now and the Catalysts statement from authority which contradicts the previous development and current situation, the future? Maybe, maybe not, we can't know for sure, AKA a logical fallacy.

 

Go ahead and make those 3 choices if you please. Aside from ending the Reapers all 3 are centered around a problem that doesn't exist and only perhaps is going to. Thematically we've gone way off the rails in this 10 minute conclusion and the synthesis ending especially just further digs that hole bigger.

 

And as for ME4, no I'm not thinking it will answer anything about the endings or dabble anymore into that nonsense (thank god) but if it somehow manages to be part of the current canon while taking place after the endings by subverting our choices instead of retconning them, then kudos to Bioware for managing that. I'd be very impressed with that, but preferably NME is gonna be a reboot.

[themikefest]

 I'm really hoping all those who claim ME3 murdered their family and children really follow through with their threat to not buy ME4. Maybe then there will be some hope of this seething rage not spilling over into the ME4 forums.

I didn't know people claimed ME3 murdered their family and children. 

[dejavu619]

But don't you think fans going crazy and coming up with hour long documentaries and theories to make sense of the ending will give developers the message that they can get away with stupid endings in a hurry as long as they leave the endings 'open to imagination'? 
 
ME3 wasn't the first game to have a disappointing ending for me. I was furious with KOTOR 2's ending as well. One thing you'll notice in common about both games is that it's no secret that developers were forced to meet deadlines and made it in haste. At least the 'The Sith Lord Restored Content Mod' did its best to 'fix' KOTOR 2. Not to forget the 'Revan' novel brought even more clarity to the series.
 
Is it too much to ask for book, a comic or some other material if not another game, to bring closure to the ME trilogy? 
 
There are plenty of games with sad endings such as (spoilers).... LA Noire, Red Dead Redemption, etc. but the reason why the ME series in particular pissed off fans was because the whole series was riding on the premise that what players do actually matters and actually impacts the ending...

[Valmar]

 

We're browsing the Bioware forums... ugh, what do people expect, like, seriously?

 

I know. Hence why I used it in the context for why "I'm not alone in my fandom". I was justifying the crazy behavior of repeatedly having the same argument over and over again, expecting a different result. In hindsight its amusing Vaz posted the Far Cry "definition of insanity" clip but I was actually thinking of that very thing when I wrote that post.

 

 

...but understanding the intent or concept of the ending well does still not make the ending a good literary piece of ending a trilogy.

 

 

I don't recall saying it was. Just because I understand it doesn't mean I agree with its direction. I wasn't the one saying it doesn't make sense or is contradictions, though.

 

 

I didn't know people claimed ME3 murdered their family and children. 

 

You really have a thing for semantics don't you. I wasn't being literal. It was to put emphasis on how ridiculous some of the hate is that gets slurred at the ME3's ending and just how personal some people take it.

 

Again, you have some comparing it to rape. Me saying that people are crying about it murdering their family and children is my way of trying to draw focus to the extreme levels of hate some individuals are flinging at it. I would say "some people act like its rape" to put emphasis on how extreme it is but since some ACTUALLY think that way it wouldn't be extreme enough to make it stand out. Murdering their family and children is the highest extreme I could think of that hasn't actually been used. Its the only one I can think of where there won't be someone going "Well, it does!"

 

Though since some people wanted their Shepard to run off in the sunset and have a family and children and are upset we didn't get their headcanon immortalized in the the game I wouldn't be terribly surprised if some did compare that to murdering their family and children. Though I'm probably just being overly pessimistic in that regard.

 

 

[dejavu619]

Bioware might as well have dropped a piano on Shepard's head to kill him... Sorry for the Two and A Half Men reference. Just another one of many endings that has angered me lol

[Linkenski]

But don't you think fans going crazy and coming up with hour long documentaries and theories to make sense of the ending will give developers the message that they can get away with stupid endings in a hurry as long as they leave the endings 'open to imagination'? 
 
ME3 wasn't the first game to have a disappointing ending for me. I was furious with KOTOR 2's ending as well. One thing you'll notice in common about both games is that it's no secret that developers were forced to meet deadlines and made it in haste. At least the 'The Sith Lord Restored Content Mod' did its best to 'fix' KOTOR 2. Not to forget the 'Revan' novel brought even more clarity to the series.
 
Is it too much to ask for book, a comic or some other material if not another game, to bring closure to the ME trilogy? 
 
There are plenty of games with sad endings such as (spoilers).... LA Noire, Red Dead Redemption, etc. but the reason why the ME series in particular pissed off fans was because the whole series was riding on the premise that what players do actually matters and actually impacts the ending...

IMO KOTOR 2's ending sucks too but here's the difference in as broad terms as I can come up with for the sake of cutting it short.

 

KOTOR 2's ending: Sucks because it's abrupt. It's still a good literary conclusion that drives home the premise and the central themes. It just lacks closure and the escape seems a bit cheap.

 

ME3's ending (with EC): Sucks because it makes the narrative incoherent. It establishes a new central conflict and tries to resolve it in 10 minutes, thus derailing the narrative and not driving home what we thought was the premise in a very inelegant way.

[Valmar]

There are plenty of games with sad endings such as (spoilers).... LA Noire, Red Dead Redemption, etc. but the reason why the ME series in particular pissed off fans was because the whole series was riding on the premise that what players do actually matters and actually impacts the ending...

 

I touched on this in a past topic and so will copy/paste my earlier mindset on the matter:

 

Another issue the ending has, imo, is the fact that too many people view the last five minutes as the ending. I believe the trilogy should be viewed as one product. One story. The last few minutes with the catalyst isn't the ending. ME3 as a whole is the ending.

 

 

ME3's ending (with EC): Sucks because it makes the narrative incoherent. It derails the narrative instead of driving the premise home.

 

I disagree. Infact I'd argue that it drives the premise too much. If it had actually derailed the narrative I imagine it wouldn't get as much flack as it does since it would likely give us that happy hollywood ending everyone cries for. Not to mention a conventional victory to boot.

[dejavu619]

One my questions that went weren't addressed by anyone is:

 

Admiral Hackett is told by the ground team that nobody made it to the beam (although Shepard and Anderson did). Then why does Hackett contact Shepard on the radio once he's in front of the control panel?

[Linkenski]

I touched on this in a past topic and so will copy/paste my earlier mindset on the matter:

 

Another issue the ending has, imo, is the fact that too many people view the last five minutes as the ending. I believe the trilogy should be viewed as one product. One story. The last few minutes with the catalyst isn't the ending. ME3 as a whole is the ending.

 

 

 

I disagree. Infact I'd argue that it drives the premise too much. If it had actually derailed the narrative I imagine it wouldn't get as much flack as it does since it would likely give us that happy hollywood ending everyone cries for. Not to mention a conventional victory to boot.

...you set it up yourself this time. This is exactly why the ending of the final arc fails. It doesn't really gel with the rest of the trilogy we've witnessed. I view ME3 as a whole as an ending and that's why those last 10 minutes so completely destroyed it for me because instead of closing it all off, it changes genre, central theme, conflict and just destroys the narrative and it was the only thing I could remember from the game for so long after I beat it the first time.

 

You're absolutely right though. A hollywood ending would've been lame, but they could've made the Crucible's function ambiguous in another way than unmasking and unmystifying the Reapers and simultaniously telling us that it's all about a central conflict which we have never seen and can't really believe in. If the ending had to be done well the entire rest of ME3 and possibly the entire trilogy would have to be compeltely changed.

[themikefest]

 

You really have a thing for semantics don't you. I wasn't being literal. It was to put emphasis on how ridiculous some of the hate is that gets slurred at the ME3's ending and just how personal some people take it.

 

So by putting an emphasis on something, you have to mention its like someone's family and/or children being murdered. 

[dejavu619]

Sad endings are fine by me, as long as they make sense... Another thing I noticed in common with KOTOR 2 was, fans were dissecting the game mechanics (Light Side/Dark Side points and the leveling up mechanism) just how indoctrination theoreticians are concerned about there being 'unlimited ammo' after Shepard is hit by Harbinger's laser beam. 

 

Did developers even intend for fans to go into this much depth just to make sense of the ending? They say any publicity is good publicity and I admit that intentionally or unintentionally, the developers did get people's heads turning and hearts exploding at the ending but wouldn't a simple cue that would represent or not represent Shepard's indoctrination have sufficed?

 

I disagree. Infact I'd argue that it drives the premise too much. If it had actually derailed the narrative I imagine it wouldn't get as much flack as it does since it would likely give us that happy hollywood ending everyone cries for. Not to mention a conventional victory to boot.

One may term Shepard's Love Interest refusing to believe that Shepard died as 'Hollywood' too, right?

[DFMelancholine]

 

 

At the very least the organic and synthetic relationships you see in ME3 challenge the viewpoint of the Reapers and it makes no sense to assert that this progression leads to chaos and genocide of organic species... so because of this assertion and the fact that we can't address it we're confused as to what exactly we are missing and why and how this ending happened.

 

 

 

If the writers were 1000% determined to keep the StarChild in their narrative they could at least have made those actions Shepard did, those choices he/she made throughout the game indeed challenge the Reapers.

For example,there should have been a Peace ending.Where the Reapers realize that their logic is flawed and that there can be TRUE peace between Synthetics and Organics and decide to abandon that destruction cycle, help rebuild what they destroyed and then return to where they came from with the warning they they WILL indeed return if Synthetics and Organics go to war again.A Paragon Shepard could choose that.Now if you were a hardcore Renegade you could have had the option to say "No,we're not letting you get away with what you did" and basically continue fighting the Reapers and win or lose depending on EMS.

 

That would have given fans closure.It would have not really ended Shepards story abruptly and it would have opened options for a second Shepard trilogy with the Reapers returning as foes initially and maybe making it a twist where Reapers actually become allies against a worse threat.

 

Oh so many ideas...

[DFMelancholine]

One my questions that went weren't addressed by anyone is:

 

Admiral Hackett is told by the ground team that nobody made it to the beam (although Shepard and Anderson did). Then why does Hackett contact Shepard on the radio once he's in front of the control panel?

 

Exactly...

Although someone could simply shrug it off by saying...At the moment he said that, he didn't know someone made it to the beam.He realized someone made it to the beam afterwards (off "camera").Which is a lazy explanation ,I know.

[dejavu619]

If the writers were 1000% determined to keep the StarChild in their narrative they could at least have made those actions Shepard did, those choices he/she made throughout the game indeed challenge the Reapers.

For example,there should have been a Peace ending.Where the Reapers realize that their logic is flawed and that there can be TRUE peace between Synthetics and Organics and decide to abandon that destruction cycle, help rebuild what they destroyed and then return to where they came from with the warning they they WILL indeed return if Synthetics and Organics go to war again.A Paragon Shepard could choose that.Now if you were a hardcore Renegade you could have had the option to say "No,we're not letting you get away with what you did" and basically continue fighting the Reapers and win or lose depending on EMS.

 

That would have given fans closure.It would have not really ended Shepards story abruptly and it would have opened options for a second Shepard trilogy with the Reapers returning as foes initially and maybe making it a twist where Reapers actually become allies against a worse threat.

 

Oh so many ideas...

That's an awesome idea...