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[fraggle]

It's possible that there is some kind of defense mechanism which prevents choosing from indoctrinated and it could also prevent choosing from AIs. The prothean VI in Thessia can identify indoctrinated people because it indentifies Kai Leng so it seems that Protheans were able to identify indoctrinated or at least they could build that AI so it is possible. Although Catalyst could always hack Crucible to allow choosing from indoctrinated or it could prevent choosing from Sheaprd. Unless of course the Crucible forces the AI to allow Shepard to decide and I think that leads back to the situation where people who were building Crucible did know about the AI and they could create that code in Crucible. Unless the leviathans helped in that but then again you can play the game without meeting them so that doesn't explain how that code was added to Crucible if it ever was there.

 

How does IT explain the fact that the Prothean VI identifies Kai Leng, but then not Shepard? Or does Shepard's indoctrination only take place in the final moments (which would be weird I guess because it seems that indoctrination does take a bit of time and is not "instantly" done)?

 

So the destroy tube and control tubes came from Crucible? I find it odd that people who are building Crucible would create so many different uses for it because creating them must take a lot of resources and I believe people who are building it don't have much time and resources. Of course people who are building it might not know about all of the ways to use that device and they could still try to build it and use it and expand it. That would explain why there is so many possibilities to use that thing.

 

I find it also weird that the Catalyst will present you the choices. Unless of course the Crucible will force it to do that. If that is not the case then it's sounds very suspicious because I don't trust that AI

 

If that is correct, and I mean, that tiny part on the Crucible really looks like it could be the parts with the tubes (because it's missing after the Crucible docked), then yeah, the tubes originally were included in the Crucible.

True, it would probably cost a lot of resources and time, but it could be a huge amount of cycles that added to it, and the Protheans for example found out (from the wiki):

"In the course of the Crucible's construction, some Protheans came to believe that the Reapers could be controlled with the device, but inevitably fell prey to indoctrination as well in their attempts to harness Reaper technology. They sabotaged the Crucible, robbing the Protheans of their last hope to defeat the Reapers."

So what if a few cycles discovered the plans earlier, before the Reapers actually arrived in their time? Of course it might not have been finished by then so they had to still study/add things. I could imagine that certain civilizations were far more advanced than ours and had better resources of finding out about the Reapers earlier, and maybe also have better resources finding/using data from archives and process them better. Theoretically many things could be possible

What if there were other civilizations before who wanted a peaceful solution, thinking about Synthesis? Or a civilization wanted to control the Reapers just like TIM (which would explain why the Protheans assumed that the Crucible could control the Reapers)?

In the end, it's only 3 solutions we have, and imo that's not much for the countless cycles that happened before us.

 

I don't trust the Catalyst either, but I believe it when it says the Crucible changed it, thus I assume the thing with the code must be true. And then I believe that it explains everything to its best knowledge of representing the truth of each choice.

 

But what I think about the synthesis is that all you need is the body which can be used. Why you need somebody's mind and that person's free will? I mean. Does it matter what you think when you step into that that beam? Sounds very volatile.

 

Space Magic No, in all earnestness, I think it has to do with Shepard "transcending". Maybe belief or the wish to make Synthesis possible is just what is needed to make it work. There is no rational explanation imo, and really the only thing I can think of is that Shepard's strong-willed essence and his deepest beliefs/wishes to achieve the Organic/Synthetic understanding, combined with the energy of the Crucible is what dispersed the new DNA throughout the galaxy. Maybe similar as the Reapers processed human DNA in ME2 to preserve their knowledge and essence of what they are/were. It's a highly spiritual take on this ending, but I actually can accept it. Not that I like how it turned out, but I find it an interesting enough concept.

 

Because we don't know anything about Crucible it's possible that it can do a lot of things. It has some code that forces the AI to help you, all those possible ways to use it will work because some brilliant minded people created them and this cycle was finally able to built it and you were the one who could finally use it. I like the ending because  it doesn't explain everything and that way it can be interpreted so many ways. I mean IT can be true or the ending can be seen as it is. Although I would want to know whether IT is true or not

 

I like the ending too. The fact that it is so open and can be interpreted in so many ways makes it really fascinating and even better for me. The fact that people are still hating on it, discussing it and talk about it after 3 years tells me it is brilliant in its own way

[Abelas Forever!]

How does IT explain the fact that the Prothean VI identifies Kai Leng, but then not Shepard? Or does Shepard's indoctrination only take place in the final moments (which would be weird I guess because it seems that indoctrination does take a bit of time and is not "instantly" done)?

I don't remember how IT explains that the Prothean VI only identifies that Kai Leng is indoctrinated. But I think it's possible that the VI only indentifies completely indoctrinated people. Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated. She/he is being indoctrinated. While the VI could also indentify people who are being indoctrianted it's possible that it doesn't indentify Shepard because her/his indoctrination hasn't proceeded to the level where the VI could identify indoctrination.

 

If that is correct, and I mean, that tiny part on the Crucible really looks like it could be the parts with the tubes (because it's missing after the Crucible docked), then yeah, the tubes originally were included in the Crucible.

True, it would probably cost a lot of resources and time, but it could be a huge amount of cycles that added to it, and the Protheans for example found out (from the wiki):

"In the course of the Crucible's construction, some Protheans came to believe that the Reapers could be controlled with the device, but inevitably fell prey to indoctrination as well in their attempts to harness Reaper technology. They sabotaged the Crucible, robbing the Protheans of their last hope to defeat the Reapers."

So what if a few cycles discovered the plans earlier, before the Reapers actually arrived in their time? Of course it might not have been finished by then so they had to still study/add things. I could imagine that certain civilizations were far more advanced than ours and had better resources of finding out about the Reapers earlier, and maybe also have better resources finding/using data from archives and process them better. Theoretically many things could be possible

What if there were other civilizations before who wanted a peaceful solution, thinking about Synthesis? Or a civilization wanted to control the Reapers just like TIM (which would explain why the Protheans assumed that the Crucible could control the Reapers)?

In the end, it's only 3 solutions we have, and imo that's not much for the countless cycles that happened before us.

 

Other species only designed Crucible and that design developed over the cycles. Even though Protheans almost managed to build it I think that version of crucible was destroyed so species in this cycle had to start from the beginning. it's possible that different cycles added things to Crucible's blueprint but when you actually start to build it then it's not a good idea to build all those possible ways to use it because it takes resources and time and this cycle didn't have much time or resources.

 

I think it's quite possible that other species were more advanced than species in this cycle so they designed Crucible and this cycle only used the blueprint to build the Crucible without understanding it so they just build everything which were in the blueprint. I'm just thinking why did the species include other ways to use Crucible in the blueprint than the  way they decided to use it. Unless they thought that it's good idea to have them there if you might need them.

 

 

I don't trust the Catalyst either, but I believe it when it says the Crucible changed it, thus I assume the thing with the code must be true. And then I believe that it explains everything to its best knowledge of representing the truth of each choice.

I don't know about that. Crucible has changed Catalyst because Catalyst is Citadel and now Crucible is attached to Citadel so it has also became part of Catalyst which means that Catalyst has changed. Maybe Catalyst is like EDI.

I think Catalyst presents the options how it sees them for example synthesis is the best option and the destroy is the worst option. Because the leviathans programmed it to believe that creating synthetics was a problem which leads to chaos then it only values the options based on that assumption instead of just presenting them to you. What I'm trying to say is that because Catalyst's logic is biased it offers you information that is not necessarily correct.

I think there is also a possibility that Catalyst sees Crucible as a possibility to finally complete its work. So it lets you to attach Crucible to Citadel and then it lets you decide hoping that you would not destroy reapers. But can we be sure that reapers are destroyed if you choose the detroy ending? I mean in the end Shepard breathes but that's all. Are reapers truly gone?

 

Anyway I think that best way to destroy reapers is to destroy that AI because it controls the reapers. If you would have known its location earlier you could have created a virus to destroy it. Maybe destroying Citadel would have the same effect or it could disrupt Catalyst enough  so that destroying reapers is easier.

[Torgette]

Well if IT has too many protholes and the actual ending has too many plotholes, coma in london has zero plotholes. 

[AlanC9]

I think there is also a possibility that Catalyst sees Crucible as a possibility to finally complete its work. So it lets you to attach Crucible to Citadel and then it lets you decide hoping that you would not destroy reapers. But can we be sure that reapers are destroyed if you choose the detroy ending? I mean in the end Shepard breathes but that's all. Are reapers truly gone?
 

Well, we do see Reapers collapsing all over the galaxy. And the final slideshow gives no indication of any further threat from them.

That logic works for the Catalyst if he's telling the truth about his plan having failed. But I don't see how it can work in a low-EMS state. What if Destroy is the only option on the table?

[Abelas Forever!]

That logic works for the Catalyst if he's telling the truth about his plan having failed. But I don't see how it can work in a low-EMS state. What if Destroy is the only option on the table?

 

You are right about the destroy. I thought that there was always control and destroy options to choose from. Anyway Catalyst doesn't have any reason to let Shepard to decide if the only option is destroy. Unless it has no choice in that matter because of unknown reasons.
 

[fraggle]

Other species only designed Crucible and that design developed over the cycles. Even though Protheans almost managed to build it I think that version of crucible was destroyed so species in this cycle had to start from the beginning. it's possible that different cycles added things to Crucible's blueprint but when you actually start to build it then it's not a good idea to build all those possible ways to use it because it takes resources and time and this cycle didn't have much time or resources.

 

I think it's quite possible that other species were more advanced than species in this cycle so they designed Crucible and this cycle only used the blueprint to build the Crucible without understanding it so they just build everything which were in the blueprint. I'm just thinking why did the species include other ways to use Crucible in the blueprint than the  way they decided to use it. Unless they thought that it's good idea to have them there if you might need them.

 

Well the thing with resources in our cycle is, you can actually gather a lot (the War Assets, many help with building the Crucible) and thus make all options available, or you don't have sufficient and not all options become available.

 

Actually, now I'm not so sure anymore that the option Synthesis was also implemented by a species at some point.

That someone built in a Synthesis option makes no sense to me now anymore. Synthesis has no own tube/control panel like Destroy and Control does, Synthesis is connected to the energy beam of the Crucible and to Shepard's energy alone.

It is also only available if the Crucible is not severely damaged as it is in low EMS. Because in high EMS, the energy of the Crucible has turned into a "less aggressive" form as the Crucible was largely intact then, allowing for example to not destroy the relays.

It's an interesting factor I think.

 

Which leaves Destroy and Control, and I would guess, that Destroy was the original plan by one of the older civilizations, and then another civilization could have had the same ambitions as TIM and found the Reapers too fascinating to destroy them and Control was added.

 

I don't know about that. Crucible has changed Catalyst because Catalyst is Citadel and now Crucible is attached to Citadel so it has also became part of Catalyst which means that Catalyst has changed. Maybe Catalyst is like EDI.

I think Catalyst presents the options how it sees them for example synthesis is the best option and the destroy is the worst option. Because the leviathans programmed it to believe that creating synthetics was a problem which leads to chaos then it only values the options based on that assumption instead of just presenting them to you. What I'm trying to say is that because Catalyst's logic is biased it offers you information that is not necessarily correct.

 

Anyway I think that best way to destroy reapers is to destroy that AI because it controls the reapers. If you would have known its location earlier you could have created a virus to destroy it. Maybe destroying Citadel would have the same effect or it could disrupt Catalyst enough  so that destroying reapers is easier.

 

Catalyst being like EDI as in it could be an unshackled AI? Or what do you mean?

 

Yes, its opinions are biased from our view point, but that's what I meant by it presents the options to its best knowledge. It doesn't know any better. The "fact" that Synthetics always overcome Organics is something it just can't help but accept as true, because it is following a definition:

Organics create Synthetics to improve their lives, but these improvements have limits, so in order to exceed those limits, Synthetics must be allowed to develop further, which results in them surpassing their creators.

It is programmed to act by this definition thus it believes it is the ultimate truth. At least that's what I think.

 

That would have surely made for an interesting ending. If you could have destroyed the AI earlier, I wonder what would've happened if the Reapers were not controlled by it anymore. Party with the Reapers

 

That logic works for the Catalyst if he's telling the truth about his plan having failed. But I don't see how it can work in a low-EMS state. What if Destroy is the only option on the table?

 

You are right about the destroy. I thought that there was always control and destroy options to choose from. Anyway Catalyst doesn't have any reason to let Shepard to decide if the only option is destroy. Unless it has no choice in that matter because of unknown reasons.

 

That is a very good point.

I guess the idea that the Catalyst actually lets you decide can be really negated because of that. But it also shows that your actions on the Collector Base directly tie into the Crucible, because there are different War Assets. If you preserve the Base, you'll get the Baby Reaper Mind on Cronos Station, making only Control available, and if the Base was destroyed, you get the Reaper Heart and you only get Destroy.

And does that mean if the Baby Reaper hadn't been at the Collector Base and we never got the heart or mind of it, the Crucible wouldn't have worked at all in low EMS?

[Abelas Forever!]

Well the thing with resources in our cycle is, you can actually gather a lot (the War Assets, many help with building the Crucible) and thus make all options available, or you don't have sufficient and not all options become available.

It's true that all the resources for Crucible are available in our cycle. I was thinking in general that if you have a blueprint for a device then you probably will decide what properties you will include in it before you start to build it. In case of Crucible when there is a war I think it's important to decide what way it will work (destroy, control, synthesis) before anyone starts to build it. Anyway it seems that the people who were building it included other solutions after they had finished one solution because they had more time and resources to do that. The scientists couldn't finish Crucible without Catalyst so it seems that they keep adding things to it because they had more time. Maybe they don't know that it's finished because otherwise they could have used their time doing other things such as help in war in some other way.

 

 

Actually, now I'm not so sure anymore that the option Synthesis was also implemented by a species at some point.

That someone built in a Synthesis option makes no sense to me now anymore. Synthesis has no own tube/control panel like Destroy and Control does, Synthesis is connected to the energy beam of the Crucible and to Shepard's energy alone.

It is also only available if the Crucible is not severely damaged as it is in low EMS. Because in high EMS, the energy of the Crucible has turned into a "less aggressive" form as the Crucible was largely intact then, allowing for example to not destroy the relays.

It's an interesting factor I think.

Maybe the synthesis doesn't need any tube because it works differently? Or it's Catalyst's addition? Anyway  I would expect that there would be some kind of tube which could do whatever it does to Shepard and then merge her/his essence into that beam in some magical way and then some more magic happens
 

 

Which leaves Destroy and Control, and I would guess, that Destroy was the original plan by one of the older civilizations, and then another civilization could have had the same ambitions as TIM and found the Reapers too fascinating to destroy them and Control was added.

I remember that you said in one of your earlier posts that Protheans found out that Crucible could be used in controlling Reapers. Anyway it seems that people who are trying to control reapers end up being indoctrianted like those Protheans who thought that controlling reapers was a good idea as well as TIM and Cerberus.

 

 

Catalyst being like EDI as in it could be an unshackled AI? Or what do you mean?

I don't know if Catalyst is unshackled AI or not. Probably it is but I was thinking the similarities between EDI and Catalyst. EDI is part of Normandy and Catalyst is part of Citadel so maybe the AI's connection to Citadel is similar to EDI's connection to Normandy.

 

 

Yes, its opinions are biased from our view point, but that's what I meant by it presents the options to its best knowledge. It doesn't know any better. The "fact" that Synthetics always overcome Organics is something it just can't help but accept as true, because it is following a definition:

Organics create Synthetics to improve their lives, but these improvements have limits, so in order to exceed those limits, Synthetics must be allowed to develop further, which results in them surpassing their creators.

It is programmed to act by this definition thus it believes it is the ultimate truth. At least that's what I think.

I agree so It seems that we have been talking about the same thing

 

 

That would have surely made for an interesting ending. If you could have destroyed the AI earlier, I wonder what would've happened if the Reapers were not controlled by it anymore. Party with the Reapers

 

Now I'm seeing dancing reapers everywhere    Unfortunately I believe that if you kill that AI then all the reapers would be dead too According to Wiki (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst):
"The Catalyst, also known as the Intelligence, is an ancient artificial intelligence that resides within the Citadel. It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and thus countless ancient civilizations."

So it seems that Catalyst is some kind of an operation system as well as a database? When you shut it down the reapers will shut down too and problem is solved. There wouldn't be any need to create a crucible because I believe that EDI has the sufficient skills to hack into that AI's system and shut it down. Of course you don't know where it is even though it's possible that the Leviathans will tell you about it but I believe that they don't know where it is. Anyway  If you had used your resources locating that AI instead of creating Crucible you might have found it and you could have defeated reapers without Crucible.

 

This is what wiki says about Harbinger (http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Harbinger):

"During its encounter with Shepard, Leviathan reveals that Harbinger was the first Reaper created, and that it was formed in the image of the Leviathans. The Catalyst directs the Reapers to harvest the galaxy of advanced life every 50,000 years, and each harvest ends with the birth of a new Reaper made in Harbinger's image."

 

I thought that Harbinger was a Leviathan and it's mind had been put into a Reaper whose name is also Harbinger. But it seems that I have been mistaken. What is that image then if it's not a mind of a single person of that species? I mean if the Catalyst could create some kind of artificial personality to one of the reapers why can't it create it again?

 

 

That is a very good point.

I guess the idea that the Catalyst actually lets you decide can be really negated because of that. But it also shows that your actions on the Collector Base directly tie into the Crucible, because there are different War Assets. If you preserve the Base, you'll get the Baby Reaper Mind on Cronos Station, making only Control available, and if the Base was destroyed, you get the Reaper Heart and you only get Destroy.

And does that mean if the Baby Reaper hadn't been at the Collector Base and we never got the heart or mind of it, the Crucible wouldn't have worked at all in low EMS?

Thank you!

 

I didn't know that the options available in low EMS ending depends on your action in Collector Base! But it's interesting. It would have been interesting to see Catalyst when it couldn't offer you any choices    Or maybe you could have just died and not met him at all?

[grimunsol]

^{I played the franchise too many, but seems still lacking, like needs more paths, Why have Cerberus if u can't go pro Cerberus as path or end up taking em over to use in war against reapers, dose not compute. expected more, if the universe a big place, why do u make it feel so small fry.}

 

 

^{I just hope next mass effect game after me3 is bigger and more paths. like owning ships,bases and build ur own.  Thou am losing interest with game market these days, since a lot companies seem so eager to shoot themselves in the foot. maybe we should make em dance more ehh?}

[Torgette]

Now I'm seeing dancing reapers everywhere    Unfortunately I believe that if you kill that AI then all the reapers would be dead too According to Wiki (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst):

"The Catalyst, also known as the Intelligence, is an ancient artificial intelligence that resides within the Citadel. It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and thus countless ancient civilizations."

So it seems that Catalyst is some kind of an operation system as well as a database? When you shut it down the reapers will shut down too and problem is solved. There wouldn't be any need to create a crucible because I believe that EDI has the sufficient skills to hack into that AI's system and shut it down. Of course you don't know where it is even though it's possible that the Leviathans will tell you about it but I believe that they don't know where it is. Anyway  If you had used your resources locating that AI instead of creating Crucible you might have found it and you could have defeated reapers without Crucible.

 

This is what wiki says about Harbinger (http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Harbinger):

"During its encounter with Shepard, Leviathan reveals that Harbinger was the first Reaper created, and that it was formed in the image of the Leviathans. The Catalyst directs the Reapers to harvest the galaxy of advanced life every 50,000 years, and each harvest ends with the birth of a new Reaper made in Harbinger's image."

 

I thought that Harbinger was a Leviathan and it's mind had been put into a Reaper whose name is also Harbinger. But it seems that I have been mistaken. What is that image then if it's not a mind of a single person of that species? I mean if the Catalyst could create some kind of artificial personality to one of the reapers why can't it create it again?

 

Just going off the terms Bioware uses for Reapers to describe themselves in the games, I just assume that when they harvest a species to be "ascended" into reaper form that they create an AI representation of the entire species, like if you took the personality of a country and made that into a person what would they look like and how would they act? I assume every Reaper is also a database that includes all the knowledge of a species + biological information, we already know Reapers can literally read your mind via indoctrination magic. As for the Catalyst, if it were a mistake that even the Apex species couldn't control then I assume there is no magical kill switch otherwise it would've already been used. So maybe the Reapers listen to the Catalyst, but can't be deactivated from the Catalyst? For all we know the Catalyst has been destroyed before and the current one was rebuilt hundreds of times over by the Reapers themselves like a robot repairing itself.

[Abelas Forever!]

Just going off the terms Bioware uses for Reapers to describe themselves in the games, I just assume that when they harvest a species to be "ascended" into reaper form that they create an AI representation of the entire species, like if you took the personality of a country and made that into a person what would they look like and how would they act? I assume every Reaper is also a database that includes all the knowledge of a species + biological information, we already know Reapers can literally read your mind via indoctrination magic. As for the Catalyst, if it were a mistake that even the Apex species couldn't control then I assume there is no magical kill switch otherwise it would've already been used. So maybe the Reapers listen to the Catalyst, but can't be deactivated from the Catalyst? For all we know the Catalyst has been destroyed before and the current one was rebuilt hundreds of times over by the Reapers themselves like a robot repairing itself.

Now that you said that a reaper can be a database it makes sense because it represent one species so it's logical to store all the information about that species into corresponding reaper. However Catalyst hasn't been able to create a reaper with an image of that species since Harbinger. All it has been able to do is to put Harbinger's image into every reaper and I find that interesting. Why?  Why can't it do it again? Why it has to put Harbinger's image into every reaper? All I can think of is that it has something to do with Leviathans because they had the mind control ability and other species that we know of don't have that ability. But that explanation sounds quite far-fetched. But I believe that it must have something to do with Leviathans. Harbinger looks like a Leviathan but that human reapers looks like a giant human. And I don't know how that matters other than the representation of human reaper differs in size when comparing it to living human. But does that matter so much that creating that image fails? Sounds quite far-fetched.

 

I don't remember hearing that Catalyst has been destroyed before. I think it's possible that it has been functional all the time because Leviathans found out about its plan too late so they couldn't have shut it down and other species probably didn't know about it at all. All they knew was that Reapers would come every 50 000 years.  Anyway I think  there has to be some way to shut Catalyst down because it's an AI. I think possible ways to do that are hacking or destroying Citadel. Because  it's not known how that AI and reapers are connected it's not certain what wil happen if that AI is shut down but I believe that either reapers will shut down too or it will disrupt them significally and you can destroy them conventionally. But it must have some effect on reapers because the AI controls the reapers and I believe that they are tools instead of allies.

[Torgette]

Now that you said that a reaper can be a database it makes sense because it represent one species so it's logical to store all the information about that species into corresponding reaper. However Catalyst hasn't been able to create a reaper with an image of that species since Harbinger. All it has been able to do is to put Harbinger's image into every reaper and I find that interesting. Why?  Why can't it do it again? Why it has to put Harbinger's image into every reaper? All I can think of is that it has something to do with Leviathans because they had the mind control ability and other species that we know of don't have that ability. But that explanation sounds quite far-fetched. But I believe that it must have something to do with Leviathans. Harbinger looks like a Leviathan but that human reapers looks like a giant human. And I don't know how that matters other than the representation of human reaper differs in size when comparing it to living human. But does that matter so much that creating that image fails? Sounds quite far-fetched.

 

I don't remember hearing that Catalyst has been destroyed before. I think it's possible that it has been functional all the time because Leviathans found out about its plan too late so they couldn't have shut it down and other species probably didn't know about it at all. All they knew was that Reapers would come every 50 000 years.  Anyway I think  there has to be some way to shut Catalyst down because it's an AI. I think possible ways to do that are hacking or destroying Citadel. Because  it's not known how that AI and reapers are connected it's not certain what wil happen if that AI is shut down but I believe that either reapers will shut down too or it will disrupt them significally and you can destroy them conventionally. But it must have some effect on reapers because the AI controls the reapers and I believe that they are tools instead of allies.

 

Just a guess but since the Catalyst was created by Leviathans then there's good chance it sees them as the ultimate race to be ascended to. Until a species comes along to disrupt that, there's zero reason to view them as worthy of ascending beyond what was already the top of the food chain. Either that or it does not know how to do it.

 

As for the Catalyst being destroyed before, it's more of an idea i'm throwing out than anything mentioned in lore. Afterall the Crucible attaching to the Citadel isn't something a cycle just came up with all at once, and there was pre-knowledge of a "Catalyst", so the mere fact these two match up means likely many previous cycles found the Catalyst without any Crucible or without a working Crucible or by accident, for all we know a cycle could've thrown an asteroid at the Citadel as a last-ditch attempt at some point. Hacking the Catalyst is no different, likely a cycle tried that and it didn't end anything, otherwise there would be no reaper threat by the time ME1 happens. For this reason imo there has to be a two-way relationship between a Catalyst AI and the Reapers, otherwise the Reapers could just rebel and chaos would erupt or it'd be a huge weakness for the Reapers and negate the reason for a Crucible to have been attempted by previous cycles to begin with.

[fraggle]

Maybe the synthesis doesn't need any tube because it works differently? Or it's Catalyst's addition? Anyway  I would expect that there would be some kind of tube which could do whatever it does to Shepard and then merge her/his essence into that beam in some magical way and then some more magic happens

 

Yeah, I'm quite convinced now that this is solely the Catalyst's solution. I mean, it wanted Synthesis all the time anyway, and now it can finally realise it through Shepard. But I don't think a tube is needed for that, when it has a giant energy beam that Shep can jump into

 

I remember that you said in one of your earlier posts that Protheans found out that Crucible could be used in controlling Reapers. Anyway it seems that people who are trying to control reapers end up being indoctrianted like those Protheans who thought that controlling reapers was a good idea as well as TIM and Cerberus.

 

This is a good point, I wonder now though if Reaper tech is always necessary to control the Reapers. If so, then why can indoctrinated individuals apparently not use the Control option, like in TIM's case?

 

Btw I think it's quite funny how the Baby Reaper Mind from Cronos Station makes Control option possible in low EMS. A nice connection. Reaper Mind affects the Reapers' minds (they are still being controlled) and the Reaper Heart affects their heart (they die ).

 

I don't know if Catalyst is unshackled AI or not. Probably it is but I was thinking the similarities between EDI and Catalyst. EDI is part of Normandy and Catalyst is part of Citadel so maybe the AI's connection to Citadel is similar to EDI's connection to Normandy.

 

I have no clue if it's unshackled or not, but I tend to shackled, because of how it follows its original purpose. If it were unshackled couldn't it just break away from his task? Also I don't think Leviathans would have created an unshackled AI that could do whatever it pleases. But anyway, that's another topic

The connection is an interesting point, however I think there is one difference. EDI can take control of the Normandy, but Catalyst cannot control the Citadel as far as I know. But I guess they are indeed similarly bound to their "body".

 

Now I'm seeing dancing reapers everywhere    Unfortunately I believe that if you kill that AI then all the reapers would be dead too According to Wiki (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst):

"The Catalyst, also known as the Intelligence, is an ancient artificial intelligence that resides within the Citadel. It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and thus countless ancient civilizations."

So it seems that Catalyst is some kind of an operation system as well as a database? When you shut it down the reapers will shut down too and problem is solved. There wouldn't be any need to create a crucible because I believe that EDI has the sufficient skills to hack into that AI's system and shut it down. Of course you don't know where it is even though it's possible that the Leviathans will tell you about it but I believe that they don't know where it is. Anyway  If you had used your resources locating that AI instead of creating Crucible you might have found it and you could have defeated reapers without Crucible.

 

Hm, but if only the Catalyst counts as database for all ancient civilizations, why would there be need to store the information in the Reapers at all? It could just be uploaded to the Catalyst and that's it.

Maybe it's rather, the Catalyst shares a common connection to the collective consciousness/memories, as it is connected to the Reapers, but each Reaper is still more or less an individual, embodying its harvested species.

I'm really not sure if all Reapers would drop dead in case the Catalyst isn't around anymore. It seems to me that the Catalyst is of course connected to the Reapers, but not in a way that they couldn't exist without the Catalyst.

 

This is what wiki says about Harbinger (http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Harbinger):

"During its encounter with Shepard, Leviathan reveals that Harbinger was the first Reaper created, and that it was formed in the image of the Leviathans. The Catalyst directs the Reapers to harvest the galaxy of advanced life every 50,000 years, and each harvest ends with the birth of a new Reaper made in Harbinger's image."

 

I thought that Harbinger was a Leviathan and it's mind had been put into a Reaper whose name is also Harbinger. But it seems that I have been mistaken. What is that image then if it's not a mind of a single person of that species? I mean if the Catalyst could create some kind of artificial personality to one of the reapers why can't it create it again?

 

Ok, I think the image of each Reaper is just based on Leviathan because it was the first species that was harvested and had their essence stored into a Reaper.

We could assume however that the core of each Reaper is shaped into the image of its respective harvested species. The human Reaper in the Collector Base was to be a core of a Reaper, while the outside of the Reaper still looks like Leviathan though.

Oooh, excellent, I just found this interview following the wiki entry of the Human Reaper:

http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1

And here:

"Why do most of the Reapers we’ve seen so far have similar insect-like appearances? The human Reaper looked different, but otherwise it seems like the Reapers mainly build themselves out of bugs. Is that correct?
The exterior of the Reapers does follow a similar pattern, an efficient design for the purpose they were created for. However each Reaper is created from a unique species, and as we saw at the end of Mass Effect 2, the core of each Reaper is designed in the likeness of that species."

 

As for the names, maybe they were picked by the Catalyst to represent a certain theme. Like Harbinger, it's an omen, the thing where everything starts. And Sovereign might have gotten its name because it once was a sovereign species or something like that.

Or Bioware just picked some random fancy names that fit

[Abelas Forever!]

As for the Catalyst being destroyed before, it's more of an idea i'm throwing out than anything mentioned in lore. Afterall the Crucible attaching to the Citadel isn't something a cycle just came up with all at once, and there was pre-knowledge of a "Catalyst", so the mere fact these two match up means likely many previous cycles found the Catalyst without any Crucible or without a working Crucible or by accident, for all we know a cycle could've thrown an asteroid at the Citadel as a last-ditch attempt at some point. Hacking the Catalyst is no different, likely a cycle tried that and it didn't end anything, otherwise there would be no reaper threat by the time ME1 happens. For this reason imo there has to be a two-way relationship between a Catalyst AI and the Reapers, otherwise the Reapers could just rebel and chaos would erupt or it'd be a huge weakness for the Reapers and negate the reason for a Crucible to have been attempted by previous cycles to begin with.

I don't believe that Catalyst was destroyed before. I think it's possible that other species discovered Catalyst but they didn't know it controlled the reapers. That's why I believe that they decided to use it instead of destroying it. Because nobody sees it as a threat there is no reason to destroy it. Other reason why nobody has tried to destroy it before could be that the blueprint was created by Catalyst and that could mean that organics never knew that it excisted. The third possibility could be that previous cycles named the component by its function before they knew how it could actually work and then later somebody thought that Citadel could be used as a Catalyst but they didn't changed its name.

I don't believe that reapers can rebel because Catalyst says that it controls them. They can't choose. They are tools. Just like indoctrianted people are tools which it can control. They can't rebel. They don't have a free will.
 

 

This is a good point, I wonder now though if Reaper tech is always necessary to control the Reapers. If so, then why can indoctrinated individuals apparently not use the Control option, like in TIM's case?

Not use Control option? I'm not sure did I understood what you meant by that. Anyway Leviathans can control reapers. It happens in Leviathan DLC where Leviathans caused the reapers to dive into that ocean and destroy. I believe that indoctrianted people can't choose control because Catalyst doesn't want them to choose it because if they would choose it then they could replace Catalyst and that is something what it probably doesn't want to happen Anyway I think that it's possible to control the reapers by hacking into that AIs system and control reapers from there. Well in a way that would be using reaper tech but it would be done in a different way that before. I mean if I remember right then TIM tried to control reapers directly but its not possible because they are controlled by that AI already.

 

 

The connection is an interesting point, however I think there is one difference. EDI can take control of the Normandy, but Catalyst cannot control the Citadel as far as I know. But I guess they are indeed similarly bound to their "body".

Catalyst lifts Shepard to that place where he/she needs to decide so it has some control to Citadel. I think it's possible that it decided not to use its power to do that or it can only control part of the Citadel. Hard to say.

 

 

Hm, but if only the Catalyst counts as database for all ancient civilizations, why would there be need to store the information in the Reapers at all? It could just be uploaded to the Catalyst and that's it.

Maybe it's rather, the Catalyst shares a common connection to the collective consciousness/memories, as it is connected to the Reapers, but each Reaper is still more or less an individual, embodying its harvested species.

I'm really not sure if all Reapers would drop dead in case the Catalyst isn't around anymore. It seems to me that the Catalyst is of course connected to the Reapers, but not in a way that they couldn't exist without the Catalyst.

I think it's possible that every reaper contains information of its corresbonding species as well as the DNA and some organic matter. So where ever the information of those species is (in a reaper or in Citadel) then reapers are still needed to store that organic matter. I don't believe that each reaper is an individual. I believe that either Catalyst is a main program who controls reapers or reapers are part of it. Well I guess probably both are true I mean I think Catalyst must be some kind of main program because it says that it controls reapers. But it's also possible to see it in way that reapers are part of it because it controls them and it has created them and they all form one big entity even though some parts of that entity are not physically connected.

Well after reading the wiki (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst) after I had written my speculation about Catalyst. It seems that Catalyst is indeed some kind of a master program:
"The Catalyst is presumed lost in some of the possible choices Shepard can make. The Destroy option wipes out all synthetic life, and a digital copy of Shepard's consciousness replaces the Catalyst as the Reapers' master AI if Control was chosen instead."

 

 

Ok, I think the image of each Reaper is just based on Leviathan because it was the first species that was harvested and had their essence stored into a Reaper.

We could assume however that the core of each Reaper is shaped into the image of its respective harvested species. The human Reaper in the Collector Base was to be a core of a Reaper, while the outside of the Reaper still looks like Leviathan though.

Oooh, excellent, I just found this interview following the wiki entry of the Human Reaper:

http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1

And here:

"Why do most of the Reapers we’ve seen so far have similar insect-like appearances? The human Reaper looked different, but otherwise it seems like the Reapers mainly build themselves out of bugs. Is that correct?
The exterior of the Reapers does follow a similar pattern, an efficient design for the purpose they were created for. However each Reaper is created from a unique species, and as we saw at the end of Mass Effect 2, the core of each Reaper is designed in the likeness of that species."

 

As for the names, maybe they were picked by the Catalyst to represent a certain theme. Like Harbinger, it's an omen, the thing where everything starts. And Sovereign might have gotten its name because it once was a sovereign species or something like that.

Or Bioware just picked some random fancy names that fit

Yes it's logical to use the image of Leviathans for every reaper because they were the ones who became the first reaper. However Catalyst tries to preserve the organics in a reaper form and I think in that case it's very important to create that image from that species. However for some reason Catalyst hasn't been able to do that again since Harbinger and I believe that it has tried to do that but failed. Well at least that impression I get.

 

Ok the mystery of why the reapers all look alike has been solved

[fraggle]

Not use Control option? I'm not sure did I understood what you meant by that. Anyway Leviathans can control reapers. It happens in Leviathan DLC where Leviathans caused the reapers to dive into that ocean and destroy. I believe that indoctrianted people can't choose control because Catalyst doesn't want them to choose it because if they would choose it then they could replace Catalyst and that is something what it probably doesn't want to happen Anyway I think that it's possible to control the reapers by hacking into that AIs system and control reapers from there. Well in a way that would be using reaper tech but it would be done in a different way that before. I mean if I remember right then TIM tried to control reapers directly but its not possible because they are controlled by that AI already.

 

I meant the Catalyst said that TIM can't control the Reapers because he is already being controlled by the Catalyst, so I would think this applies to any indoctrinated individual (like the Protheans etc)? Could be that the Catalyst doesn't want these people to take over, but I guess this point only really comes up after the Crucible docks.

Catalyst stated that Shepard can use the Crucible's energy to control the Reapers, so it's highly likely that it wouldn't just work in another way? Or maybe it again has to do with free will? A controlled individual can't take over, but anyone who is free can.

Hacking the AI might be a possibility, but how would a human mind take over? Or maybe EDI could take over, I don't know

 

Catalyst lifts Shepard to that place where he/she needs to decide so it has some control to Citadel. I think it's possible that it decided not to use its power to do that or it can only control part of the Citadel. Hard to say.

 

I think there's two possibilities, either it has control of that part of the Citadel only, as you said, or it could only after the Crucible docked. I think Shepard was only lifted up after the Crucible docked, and then the platform moves up and the Citadel arms open.

I guess we'll never know how much exactly the Catalyst can control, but I think it's safe to say it can't move the Citadel in its entirety, or else it wouldn't need to be the Reapers that moved the Citadel to Earth.

 

I think it's possible that every reaper contains information of its corresbonding species as well as the DNA and some organic matter. So where ever the information of those species is (in a reaper or in Citadel) then reapers are still needed to store that organic matter. I don't believe that each reaper is an individual. I believe that either Catalyst is a main program who controls reapers or reapers are part of it. Well I guess probably both are true I mean I think Catalyst must be some kind of main program because it says that it controls reapers. But it's also possible to see it in way that reapers are part of it because it controls them and it has created them and they all form one big entity even though some parts of that entity are not physically connected.

Well after reading the wiki (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst) after I had written my speculation about Catalyst. It seems that Catalyst is indeed some kind of a master program:
"The Catalyst is presumed lost in some of the possible choices Shepard can make. The Destroy option wipes out all synthetic life, and a digital copy of Shepard's consciousness replaces the Catalyst as the Reapers' master AI if Control was chosen instead."

 

Guess you're right about that Also the Catalyst always refers to "we", so it thinks as the Reapers as some sort of part of itself.

Though Reapers can still be individual in the sense of a species' trait that was stored in each Reaper I guess.

[Abelas Forever!]

I meant the Catalyst said that TIM can't control the Reapers because he is already being controlled by the Catalyst, so I would think this applies to any indoctrinated individual (like the Protheans etc)? Could be that the Catalyst doesn't want these people to take over, but I guess this point only really comes up after the Crucible docks.

Catalyst stated that Shepard can use the Crucible's energy to control the Reapers, so it's highly likely that it wouldn't just work in another way? Or maybe it again has to do with free will? A controlled individual can't take over, but anyone who is free can.

Hacking the AI might be a possibility, but how would a human mind take over? Or maybe EDI could take over, I don't know

Yes. I think that Catalyst doesn't want indoctrinated people to take control of the reapers and I believe that it has nothing to do with free will. I think Catalyst only wants synthesis and for some reason it can only happen if a person wants that. Because free will is needed for synthesis then it has no control to the person who wants to choose control instead.

I believe that EDI or some other AI could take control of the reapers. Maybe organics can't do that directly but through some program they probably could control them. Anyway I believe that building Crucible is a mistake because there are other ways to defeat the reapers. Species just don't find them in time and then they are so desperate that they start building it.

 

I think there's two possibilities, either it has control of that part of the Citadel only, as you said, or it could only after the Crucible docked. I think Shepard was only lifted up after the Crucible docked, and then the platform moves up and the Citadel arms open.

I guess we'll never know how much exactly the Catalyst can control, but I think it's safe to say it can't move the Citadel in its entirety, or else it wouldn't need to be the Reapers that moved the Citadel to Earth.

It's true that after the Crucible has docked Catalyst lifts Shepard. Although it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It may be that it has chosen not to intervene earlier because that could expose it and I think it would be wise to hide and let reapers do all the work. Although it's probably true like you said that it can't move Citadel by itself but I think that it probably can open doors etc.

 

 

Guess you're right about that Also the Catalyst always refers to "we", so it thinks as the Reapers as some sort of part of itself.

Though Reapers can still be individual in the sense of a species' trait that was stored in each Reaper I guess.

I agree.

 

After all this discussion I have come to a conclusion that Catalyst must have designed the Crucible. It would make sense that it has left the blueprint for species to find. It has done that with Citadel and with mass relays. It could have destroyed it but it didn't do it. It must know that organics are building it in this cycle too. With Crucible it has a possibility to finally merge organics and synthetics. Besides how could Crucible work so well with Citadel and Catalyst if it didn't design it?

Now there is only control and destroy options that really don't make any sense if Catalyst has designed that blueprint. However this got me thinking. Its from Wiki (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst):

"The Catalyst is presumed lost in some of the possible choices Shepard can make. The Destroy option wipes out all synthetic life, and a digital copy of Shepard's consciousness replaces the Catalyst as the Reapers' master AI if Control was chosen instead. It is unknown what happens to it if Shepard merges organic and synthetic life, or if Shepard refuses to use the Crucible, though the Stargazer narrating the tale of eras long gone claims to be free of the Reaper threat in their time."
 

 

I think it could be possible that control isn't that bad option for Catalyst because that way its original solution continues. Although it didn't get what it wanted but the possibility to finally synthesize  organics and synthetics might be worth trying for. Of course there is still a possibility that even if Shepard controls the reapers the AI controls Shepard

Destroy option seems to be the worst option for Catalyst because that way its solution don't work anymore and everything is lost. Although it might think that risking everything is worth it if it could finally combine synthetics and organics. It's also possible that it doesn't perish even if Shepard chooses the destroy option. Probably it has a backup of itself somewhere. Maybe in some other galaxy, dark space or it's immune to Crucible. In that case It could start over.

Maybe synthesis is possible only if a person wants it and that's why the Catalyst has build all the other solutions so that Shepard could think that synthesis is the best option and would choose it instead of some other option. Anyway this theory still don't explain why it lets you decide when synthesis isn't available. Maybe it designed the Crucible in a way that if it's docked to Citadel it has no other choice than let the one who is in Citadel to decide

Well. I still think that IT makes more sense than the actual ending or maybe I still don't see it in a way that it makes sense

[Torgette]

Well. I still think that IT makes more sense than the actual ending or maybe I still don't see it in a way that it makes sense

 

Yep, there's a lot of gaps and things that don't make sense, ie: why did Sovereign need Saren if the Catalyst inhabits the Citadel? When (whoever) designed the Crucible, did they do so knowing somebody would have a gun to shoot the tube? If that was a hack, why was the tube covered in glass anyways? Hell, how is Shepard even breathing and where is the gravity coming from? How would control work if you only had one arm? How would Synthesis work if your species had no emotions? How can the catalyst detect whether you want to synthesize in the first place? If the point of the catalyst is to prevent organic/synthetic destruction through ascension, why does it only ascend organics and not synthetics? Why is it on a 50,000 year cycle, what happens if no species attains space flight or AI in that time, does it just take the night off? Is the catalyst really interested in solving the organic/synthetic problem if it's purposefully leaving behind technology to speed up the harvest?

 

I still like the idea it was all a coma-induced dream, it solves a lot of problems. 

[AlanC9]

I'll take a couple of those:

why did Sovereign need Saren if the Catalyst inhabits the Citadel?

The Catalyst's presence changes nothing. Either way, you have a bunch of prothean scientists travelling to the Citadel and doing something that we don't know the details of.

Hell, how is Shepard even breathing and where is the gravity coming from?

Air works same way it worked at, say, the Normandy dock. You did notice that's open to space, right? And artificial gravity isn't exactly an innovation either.

And while these are real problems:

Why is it on a 50,000 year cycle, what happens if no species attains space flight or AI in that time, does it just take the night off? Is the catalyst really interested in solving the organic/synthetic problem if it's purposefully leaving behind technology to speed up the harvest?

... they're problems with the ME1 setup. ME3 didn't solve them, but I'm not certain they're soluble

[fraggle]

After all this discussion I have come to a conclusion that Catalyst must have designed the Crucible. It would make sense that it has left the blueprint for species to find. It has done that with Citadel and with mass relays. It could have destroyed it but it didn't do it. It must know that organics are building it in this cycle too. With Crucible it has a possibility to finally merge organics and synthetics. Besides how could Crucible work so well with Citadel and Catalyst if it didn't design it?

 

But what about the Catalyst's statement that they first discovered the Crucible's plans a few cycles ago? If it had created them itself, it would make no sense to say that.

The Citadel and Mass Relays were only left for species to find to harvest them more efficiently. They relied on this technology and thus are always trapped when the Reapers hit.

I'm inclined to think it is aware that the Crucible is being built (due to TIM I believe), but I guess the only sense it would make that it isn't trying to find the Crucible and attack it, is that the Catalyst arrogantly believes organics will not manage to complete it (it even says during the final conversation that clearly organics are more resourceful than it had thought).

About how the Crucible works so well with the Citadel? I can only imagine that some ancient civilizations made use of some Citadel blueprint plans and found a spot to attach the Crucible where it could be most efficient. Since the Crucible works with energy, they maybe took the central point of the Citadel, so when it opened the arms it could send out energy to every direction due to the Citadel being star-shaped in this state.

 

Now there is only control and destroy options that really don't make any sense if Catalyst has designed that blueprint. However this got me thinking. Its from Wiki (http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst):

"The Catalyst is presumed lost in some of the possible choices Shepard can make. The Destroy option wipes out all synthetic life, and a digital copy of Shepard's consciousness replaces the Catalyst as the Reapers' master AI if Control was chosen instead. It is unknown what happens to it if Shepard merges organic and synthetic life, or if Shepard refuses to use the Crucible, though the Stargazer narrating the tale of eras long gone claims to be free of the Reaper threat in their time."
 

 

I think it could be possible that control isn't that bad option for Catalyst because that way its original solution continues. Although it didn't get what it wanted but the possibility to finally synthesize  organics and synthetics might be worth trying for. Of course there is still a possibility that even if Shepard controls the reapers the AI controls Shepard

Destroy option seems to be the worst option for Catalyst because that way its solution don't work anymore and everything is lost. Although it might think that risking everything is worth it if it could finally combine synthetics and organics. It's also possible that it doesn't perish even if Shepard chooses the destroy option. Probably it has a backup of itself somewhere. Maybe in some other galaxy, dark space or it's immune to Crucible. In that case It could start over.

Maybe synthesis is possible only if a person wants it and that's why the Catalyst has build all the other solutions so that Shepard could think that synthesis is the best option and would choose it instead of some other option. Anyway this theory still don't explain why it lets you decide when synthesis isn't available. Maybe it designed the Crucible in a way that if it's docked to Citadel it has no other choice than let the one who is in Citadel to decide

 

Mh, to be honest that sounds like a great risk the Catalyst takes just to hope the next best person arriving on the Citadel is potentially willing to go Synthesis on the galaxy. To me it seems that Synthesis is rather an accidental byproduct of the Crucibles' energy. Lucky for Catalyst.

I agree that Destroy is the option the Catalyst wants the least, and Control is more or less the same concept as it is now, only except Shepard would not use it anymore to harvest civilizations. So in the end that's not really what the Catalyst is after as well. Shepard uses the Reapers to help build what was destroyed (you can see Reapers repairing the Mass Relays in Control Ending), so I would assume he/she really replaces the Catalyst. If the Catalyst is gone with Destroy? Who knows, I guess yes, because it might have to do with the Reaper technology the energy wave attacks as well, but we don't know enough about that. Maybe since it is connected to all Reaper-tech-related stuff it would be affected as well.

 

Yep, there's a lot of gaps and things that don't make sense, ie: why did Sovereign need Saren if the Catalyst inhabits the Citadel? 

 

Because the Protheans managed to change the signal to prevent the Keepers from opening the relay, so there's nothing the Catalyst could have done.

It seems to me that the various tasks the Catalyst chose for its tools are what eventually doomed it. If it itself were responsible for the signal/opening the relay, then I guess the Protheans' attempt wouldn't have worked. It's yet another indication for me that the Catalyst did not anticipate such efficiency from other species.

 

When (whoever) designed the Crucible, did they do so knowing somebody would have a gun to shoot the tube? If that was a hack, why was the tube covered in glass anyways?

 

Hehe, nice question. Maybe they would assume whoever's will is strong enough to make Destroy happen can break the glass with bare hands. Or a head.

 

Hell, how is Shepard even breathing and where is the gravity coming from?

 

The gravity should come from eezo cores and rotation.

 

How would control work if you only had one arm?

How would Synthesis work if your species had no emotions? How can the catalyst detect whether you want to synthesize in the first place?

 

1. No idea People learn painting with their foot, so that's a possibility, hahaha.

2. Then it wouldn't work at all I guess. Mmmmh, maybe due to mind abilities? I mean somehow it had a way to present itself as the kid Shepard couldn't save, so it must've had a way to know about that? Created by Leviathans it wouldn't surprise me if it can peek into minds.

 

If the point of the catalyst is to prevent organic/synthetic destruction through ascension, why does it only ascend organics and not synthetics?

 

Because its original task was to preserve life at all cost. I assume Leviathans did not consider Synthetics as "life".

 

Why is it on a 50,000 year cycle, what happens if no species attains space flight or AI in that time, does it just take the night off? Is the catalyst really interested in solving the organic/synthetic problem if it's purposefully leaving behind technology to speed up the harvest?

 

The past cycles seem to have shown that the 50,000 year gap proved efficient. We don't know what would happen... if the Reapers stayed back and waited for more development, but it is not really necessary to know imo. It changes nothing for the current cycle. At any rate, I think due to the nature of species to study, invent, develop, aim higher etc. there's always a big chance that space flight/AIs will be invented.

For the solving part, I would think so. I mean, it is its task after all, it has to fulfill it.

[Abelas Forever!]

But what about the Catalyst's statement that they first discovered the Crucible's plans a few cycles ago? If it had created them itself, it would make no sense to say that.

The Citadel and Mass Relays were only left for species to find to harvest them more efficiently. They relied on this technology and thus are always trapped when the Reapers hit.

I'm inclined to think it is aware that the Crucible is being built (due to TIM I believe), but I guess the only sense it would make that it isn't trying to find the Crucible and attack it, is that the Catalyst arrogantly believes organics will not manage to complete it (it even says during the final conversation that clearly organics are more resourceful than it had thought).

About how the Crucible works so well with the Citadel? I can only imagine that some ancient civilizations made use of some Citadel blueprint plans and found a spot to attach the Crucible where it could be most efficient. Since the Crucible works with energy, they maybe took the central point of the Citadel, so when it opened the arms it could send out energy to every direction due to the Citadel being star-shaped in this state.

Because Catalyst was lying Anyway you are right it doesn't make any sense that it would say something like that. However I think it might be possible that it discovered the plans and decided to use them instead of destroying them. I think all it had to do was add its solution to that plan.

I thought that Citadel and Mass Releas were created so that organics would evolve more rapidly so that the time between cycles wouldn't be that long. Catalyst is trying to combine organics and synthetics but it hasn't succeed in it but I think it keeps trying until it does. Catalyst can try that only once in a 50000 years which is quite long time so I wouldn't be surprised that it has speeded things up quite a lot.

It's true that Catalyst could be so arrogant that it doesn't believe that organics could finally complete the Crucible. However I believe that it knows that organics are building it because Udina was indoctrinated. Then TIM goes to meet it and it must know  now that Crucible is ready and only needs Catalyst. But it doesn't make any sense that it orders reapers to move Citadel near Earth unless it doesn't want Shepard to go after it.

I belive that Catalyst meant by it's statement (Organics are more resourceful than it had thought) that it is surprised that organics managed to build the Crucible in this cycle or it wants to affect Shepards opinions by saying something like that.

 

 

 

Mh, to be honest that sounds like a great risk the Catalyst takes just to hope the next best person arriving on the Citadel is potentially willing to go Synthesis on the galaxy. To me it seems that Synthesis is rather an accidental byproduct of the Crucibles' energy. Lucky for Catalyst.

I agree that Destroy is the option the Catalyst wants the least, and Control is more or less the same concept as it is now, only except Shepard would not use it anymore to harvest civilizations. So in the end that's not really what the Catalyst is after as well. Shepard uses the Reapers to help build what was destroyed (you can see Reapers repairing the Mass Relays in Control Ending), so I would assume he/she really replaces the Catalyst. If the Catalyst is gone with Destroy? Who knows, I guess yes, because it might have to do with the Reaper technology the energy wave attacks as well, but we don't know enough about that. Maybe since it is connected to all Reaper-tech-related stuff it would be affected as well.

There might be some aspects of my theory that are quite far-fetched.. But that was the best I could do Anyway I don't believe that synthesis was accident. It can't be. I mean there must be something that can make it happen. Those kind of things just don't happen by accident.

Shepard might not use reapers to harvest organics in the near future but after 1000 of years? Maybe something changes or Shepard changes and it starts to see that Catalyst was right after all.

[fraggle]

I thought that Citadel and Mass Releas were created so that organics would evolve more rapidly so that the time between cycles wouldn't be that long. Catalyst is trying to combine organics and synthetics but it hasn't succeed in it but I think it keeps trying until it does. Catalyst can try that only once in a 50000 years which is quite long time so I wouldn't be surprised that it has speeded things up quite a lot.

It's true that Catalyst could be so arrogant that it doesn't believe that organics could finally complete the Crucible. However I believe that it knows that organics are building it because Udina was indoctrinated. Then TIM goes to meet it and it must know  now that Crucible is ready and only needs Catalyst. But it doesn't make any sense that it orders reapers to move Citadel near Earth unless it doesn't want Shepard to go after it.

 

Yes, it is left for them to evolve more quickly/efficiently, but due to the use of the Citadel, the Reapers can also strike at the heart of the Galaxy first, leaving species in panic and very unorganised in case they didn't know yet about the Reapers at this point. Reapers set everything on a surprise attack so species don't even have the chance of fighting back properly and can be harvested easier.

 

Yeah, I think the Catalyst knew, just really thought they would never manage to finish it. It has reasons to believe that because the Crucible has never been completed before, why should it assume that it can happen now?

I think it was moved to Earth for 2 reasons, one being they can process harvested humans faster due to the beam, and I think the Reapers/Catalyst might have thought that the Citadel would be easier to defend in the system with the most Reaper activity. And actually that was correct. If you don't manage to get enough war assets, the move of the Crucible into the Sol System will result in the Crucible being attacked by Reapers because there is not enough resistence on the EMS side, and the Crucible gets severely damaged in the process.

 

There might be some aspects of my theory that are quite far-fetched.. But that was the best I could do Anyway I don't believe that synthesis was accident. It can't be. I mean there must be something that can make it happen. Those kind of things just don't happen by accident.

Shepard might not use reapers to harvest organics in the near future but after 1000 of years? Maybe something changes or Shepard changes and it starts to see that Catalyst was right after all.

 

It could be that it was no accident, we just need to leave it to speculation.

 

Yeah, who knows what Shepard is up to after 1000 years, but I guess that's up to each player that chose Control. Again, I really like how open everything is for the players.

Would be quite ironic though. "He, that Catalyst was right. Ok, Reapers, back to work asap!"

[Abelas Forever!]

Yes, it is left for them to evolve more quickly/efficiently, but due to the use of the Citadel, the Reapers can also strike at the heart of the Galaxy first, leaving species in panic and very unorganised in case they didn't know yet about the Reapers at this point. Reapers set everything on a surprise attack so species don't even have the chance of fighting back properly and can be harvested easier.

 

Yeah, I think the Catalyst knew, just really thought they would never manage to finish it. It has reasons to believe that because the Crucible has never been completed before, why should it assume that it can happen now?

I think it was moved to Earth for 2 reasons, one being they can process harvested humans faster due to the beam, and I think the Reapers/Catalyst might have thought that the Citadel would be easier to defend in the system with the most Reaper activity. And actually that was correct. If you don't manage to get enough war assets, the move of the Crucible into the Sol System will result in the Crucible being attacked by Reapers because there is not enough resistence on the EMS side, and the Crucible gets severely damaged in the process.

 

I'm very suspicious of Catalyst's motives to move Citadel to earth even if there are benefits to do it or at least there seems to be. Maybe it can process humans faster but I'm not sure about it because I don't know how the Reapers are processing humans when the Citadel isn't there. There are piles of dead  humans where you arrive but you don't see anybody and you don't see any processing equipment. Well that's weird. I mean what are the humans doing there if they should have been processed? Anyway Reapers are at Earth and there are a lot of them but Catalyst could easily order every one of them to protect Citadel and move it somewhere else where it could be safe. Now it's in the middle of the war and it's not wise to move your commanding center there. Besides Catalyst has been hiding the whole time and now it suddenly decides that it's time to go to the frontline. If it only wants to harvest everybody then it has all the time it needs. It doesn't have any reason to start speeding things up.

 

 

Yeah, who knows what Shepard is up to after 1000 years, but I guess that's up to each player that chose Control. Again, I really like how open everything is for the players.

Would be quite ironic though. "He, that Catalyst was right. Ok, Reapers, back to work asap!"

 

In a way the ending is so open that players can decide what happens in the future but on the other hand it isn't. You might see that the mass relays are repaired. Maybe you don't want that. You can't decide after the control ending that you decided to abandon or destroy reapers. Not right after the ending anyway. Synthesis always seems to end happily.  You can't decide that it went horribly wrong. I mean you see quite far way in the future and what will happen there. I'm not complaining. Just pointing out

[AlanC9]

Anyway Reapers are at Earth and there are a lot of them but Catalyst could easily order every one of them to protect Citadel and move it somewhere else where it could be safe. Now it's in the middle of the war and it's not wise to move your commanding center there.

But Earth isn't the "middle of the war," any more than France was the middle of the war in 1943. Earth is a backwater where the Reapers are methodically harvesting while the Resistance, at best, slightly inconveniences them. The real war only comes there when the fleets arrive.

In a way the ending is so open that players can decide what happens in the future but on the other hand it isn't. You might see that the mass relays are repaired. Maybe you don't want that. You can't decide after the control ending that you decided to abandon or destroy reapers. Not right after the ending anyway. Synthesis always seems to end happily.  You can't decide that it went horribly wrong. I mean you see quite far way in the future and what will happen there. I'm not complaining. Just pointing out

Well, that's an issue with epilogues. Either Bio fills in the blanks for you or they don't. We got the EC because too many people didn't actually like open-ended when they got it.

[fraggle]

There are piles of dead  humans where you arrive but you don't see anybody and you don't see any processing equipment. Well that's weird. I mean what are the humans doing there if they should have been processed?

 

Maybe it's the Keepers doing it? They do stroll around there. And I think it was themikefest who once pointed out in another thread that in the chasm area, you can see there's a reddish waterfall, suggesting it's blood. But who knows

 

As for the other things, I agree with AlanC9.

Of course the epilogue suggests some things, but there's still enough to make up your own ending and what happened in-between