407 réponses à ce sujet

[angol fear]

Ah bravo! I point this ambiguous/ open to interpretation line out and all you can do is :

How do you get that it means it is part organic?

 

What part of that statement sounds like something organic?

 

You're clearly one of those who need the story to tell you exactly "hey guy this is it, that's what you will have later in the game". The problem is that the whole writing of mass effect isn't like that, it's all about open lines, things that you can't understand if you don't have the clues. If you can't understand how the comparison is interesting, well you have to come back to "why do we use comparison?". Why don't you say that it is irrelevant because it's only inside their head, so it's not real?

But do you remember the visions in Mass Effect 1? Wasn't it about flesh and machine? Maybe you should watch them again.

 

And now the plot thing. It has changed? You're trying to use my quotation against me? So let's see : Dr Manuel is a human with a vision. From his point of view, does he know what is the purpose of the reapers? I don't think he knows. His vision is what the reapers will do. For him, it's just destruction. Just like most people here consider that Reapers are just killers, he probably consider his vision to be a slaugher, the destruction of human beings. But now let's see, are the reapers called  killers? No they are called "reapers". They are machines who harvest. I don't think a "harvest" is a destruction. If Bioware has chosen these words, there was maybe a purpose. So I don't think the plot has changed from destruction to preservation. I think that there ahs always been a purpose behind it that isn't destruction. But from our point of view it is destruction.

 

The narrative of the ending isn't broken. If you really think that, why are you coming here? You won't change what have been done.

The fact that we still talking about it shows that most people still don't understand it/ it shows that the ending is so interesting that we still talk about it years after.

The E.C. wasn't needed by many readers (you'll notice that I don't use the word "player"). It was needed by people who didn't/ didn't want to understand. I didn't need the E.C., my friends didn't need E.C.

 

And I'm a liar. Did you answer about the codex things I talked about? Did you answer about what you expected from the game when you played Mass Effect 1?

 

And for your quotation i honestly don't get where is the problem. Could you explain?

 

But if, as you said, the story is full of inconsistencies from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 3 you should have stopped at Mass Effect 2, just like I stopped at Walking dead 1. The inconsistencies you see are here from the beginning.

 

Edit : the way you ended your post shows that you understood how that quotation could be interpreted but I'm pretty sure you'll deny it!

[DSiKn355]

@Angol Fear

 

You never answered my one question lol.

 

I never said about mass effect 1?  Pretty sure I mentioned ME1.

And what codex things did you mention?

 

Are you talking about 2 posts ago or even further back??

 

You say "I don't think a "harvest" is a destruction. If Bioware has chosen these words, there was maybe a purpose. So I don't think the plot has changed from destruction to preservation. I think that there ahs always been a purpose behind it that isn't destruction. But from our point of view it is destruction."

 

Ok check it...

 

Sovereign: Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire.

 

Catalyst: We harvested them. We brought order to the chaos. We helped them ascend and become one of us, allowing new life to flourish, while preserving the old life forever in Reaper form.

 

Catalyst: Harbinger was the first

 

Shepard: I met your creators. They told me what you did to them

Catalyst: We did as we were expected

Shepard: They said that you betrayed them, that you turned them into Harbinger

Catalyst: When they asked that I solve the problem of conflict, they failed to understand they were part of the problem themselves. The flaws of their organic reasoning could not percieve this. They lacked the foresight to understand their destruction was part of the very solution they required.

 

Catalyst: My creators gave them form, I gave them function. They, in turn, give me purpose. The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators.

Catalyst: Yes. They created me to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life - to establish a connection. They became the first true Reaper. They did not approve, but it was the only solution.

 

Do you see?

Don't worry I will answer any questions as you may not understand

 

And you STILL haven't adressed the point of "Shepard gives in" lol.

 

The EC makes it painfully clear that the devs changed Shepards character to suit their ending which is crappy story telling.

 

[Refusing the 3 choices]

 

 

Catalyst: Your time is at an end. You must decide.

Shepard: No. I'm going to end this war on my terms. (Still rebelling against fate)

Catalyst: Then you will die knowing that you failed to save everything you fought for.

Shepard: I fight for freedom. Mine, and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free. (Staying in character and true to the plot and his conviction)

Catalyst: So be it

Catalyst disappears, everyone dead with liara's recording playing

Catalyst: The cycle continues

 

So tell me again how the narrative isn't broken?

 

It's like protecting a child from an evil organisation throughout a journey and then right at the end you give in and hand over the child lol.

You are then left with "Why was I journeying in the first place?"

[Abelas Forever!]

When Shepard asks who designed the Crucible the Catalyst says Shepard wouldn't know them, so we know that several cycles already knew about/added to the Crucible (I think this is also mentioned by Vendetta, the Prothean VI on Thessia/later in Cronos Station). Unfortunately we don't know how many cycles were involved, but I'm assuming a lot, so if there were some really brilliant races working on it throughout countless cycles, I can find it believable they found out how to make it work.

Yes many different species in different cycles have been creating Crucible and I also think it's possible to create that kind of device which could destroy reapers and I think that it's also possible to hide the blueprint of that device from reapers. Probably difficult but possible.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the question as to why the Crucible was never destroyed is a good one. The Catalyst says that they discovered the concept for it several cycles ago, but they thought its concept had been eradicated. I'm not a native speaker, but could "eradicted" mean here that maybe the cycles hid the Crucibles' concept/plans well enough so the Catalyst didn't notice it was still present? Or does it really simply mean that they assumed this device would not work properly?

(Ok, I just checked the wiki:

"Several cycles before the present harvest, the Catalyst became aware of a concept that could potentially be used to destroy the Reapers. It attempted to eradicate this concept, unaware that the idea evolved and survived into the present in the form of the Crucible."

I just really don't remember right now where it was stated the Catalyst attempted to eradicate the concept. Also the Catalyst clearly states they knew the concept evolved before, so is the wiki wrong on this?)

I watched the ending that is what Catalys will say

 

He says that "we believed the concept have been eradicated. Clearly, the organics are more resourceful than we realized".

So it seems that what wiki says about the Crucible isn't accurate because Catalyst said that it believed that Crucible was destroyed but it didn't say that it had anything to do about it. Anyway it's possible that because Catalyst was created by Leviathans then it's so arrogant that it can't believe that organics could destroy it so it lets them continue creating Crucible. I think it's also possible that Catalyst is surprised that organics finished the Crucible in this cycle instead of some other cycle after this one.

 

 

I think the Catalyst can't choose any new solution because of the altered variables/docking of the Crucible. It's able to present the choices to someone else, but not able to perform them itself.

Catalyst never explained what the changed variables actuelly were. I mean it's true that some variables have probably changed when Crucible is attached to Citadel. Although I don't see any reason why Catalyst would abandon its solution even though Shepard is there and Crucible is attached to Citadel. Unless Crucible contains some code that would change the programming of that AI and while I think this is possible then it also means that some organics must knew about the AI so that they could create that code. While it's possible I haven't seen any evidence about it. Of course it could have happened in previous cycles but I think it's quite unlikely.

 

The strange thing is that if we are in Citadel then why there is those tubes which represent the choices? I mean if Catalyst hasn't build those then it means that somebody who knews about Crucible must have created them. While I still think it's possible that some other than Catalyst could have build them then why did they thought that it's good idea to create all those choices? Why not create the Crucible in a way that when it's attached to Citadel then it destroyes the reapers?

 

One thing that is very interesting about the ending is that Catalyst says that they have tried something similar like the choices before but it didn't work because the organics weren't ready but this time they are ready. It says also something about the free will or something like that. I don't remember anymore. Anyway that makes me think that catalyst is waiting that the organics will finally build the crucible and attach it to Citadel.

 

By the way. TIM is also in Citadel. So when Crucible is attached to Citadel then the AI could order TIM to choose one of the choices. Unless this is not possible because the AI controls TIM so maybe its programming prevents it to make that decision. But why?

[Vazgen]

 

Here is where you are making mistakes.

 

1. In ME1 onwards all Geth enemies are being controlled by the Reapers and are not trying to wipe out organics of their own accord.

 

2. Real Geth (legion etc) were NOT trying to wipe out organics only defend themselves from annihilation as when the war started they had organic allies that were Quarians.

 

3.Rogue AI in ME1 was programmed that way by another "Malfunctioning" AI

 

4. The rogue VI was a result of...

 

“Archer’s Log 135.3: For years my brother has been a handicap. That changed today. His autistic mind is the breakthrough I’ve been looking for - - he can communicate with the geth! Such a tremendous grasp of mathematics. It seems serendipity is alive and well in the 22nd century.”

 

“Archer Log 157.8: Unless he sees results, the Illusive Man is shutting us down next week. I have no choice. I am going to tap David directly into the geth neural network and see if he can influence them. Danger should be negligible. David might even enjoy it.”

 

“Archer Log 164.4: I’d be lying if I said that no harm could come to David. His autistic mind is just as alien to me as an actual alien. Anything could happen when we plug him in. But I have to try, don’t I?”

 

Right?

 

So no AI/VI gained the will to destroy organics of its own accord without interference, Reaper control or a malfunction.

 

The only machines known to wipe out civilizations until the appearance of the Catalyst is the Reapers.

 

I understand you are saying that the Catalyst superceeds all previous knowledge and statements but for that to happen that still leave inconsistencies and plotholes.

 

It's basically...

 

"Synthetics will end up destroying all life so instead I am using synthetics to destroy all life that is civilized"

 

And then the biggest plothole in all this

 

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire."

~ Sovereign

 

So by that statement alone they could have made all races not that well equipped to create AI and endanger themselves lol.

 

The Reapers/Catalyst/Intelligence (which ever you feel is responsible) is the cause for all the trouble lmao.

 

1. The Geth were not controlled by the Reapers when they wiped out 99% of Quarian population

2. The reasons for annihilation are irrelevant. In fact, I'd say that organic fears and consequent self-defense of the synthetics are one of the main, if not the main, reasons for the conflict. The Catalyst never says that synthetics destroy organics just because they are malicious. In fact, it tells that there fundamental differences between the two life forms are exactly the reasons for conflict, which is reinforced throughout the games. 

3. It was still connected to the original AI. Its retaliation against the thief proves it.

4. I was not referring to the Overlord DLC. I referred to the Rogue VI at Jarrahe Station

 

Their technology is not the reason for conflict. The organics would create synthetics anyway. The relay technology allows for a better controlled process. "We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution". And their technology can't be a solution to the conflict either, unless Synthesis which they tried before and it always failed.

There are no plot holes here. If you want a plot hole, ask how a relay can resist damage from supernova explosion (Mu relay) but get destroyed by an asteroid (Alpha relay).

[DSiKn355]

1. The Geth were not controlled by the Reapers when they wiped out 99% of Quarian population

2. The reasons for annihilation are irrelevant. In fact, I'd say that organic fears and consequent self-defense of the synthetics are one of the main, if not the main, reasons for the conflict. The Catalyst never says that synthetics destroy organics just because they are malicious. In fact, it tells that there fundamental differences between the two life forms are exactly the reasons for conflict, which is reinforced throughout the games. 

3. It was still connected to the original AI. Its retaliation against the thief proves it.

4. I was not referring to the Overlord DLC. I referred to the Rogue VI at Jarrahe Station

 

Their technology is not the reason for conflict. The organics would create synthetics anyway. The relay technology allows for a better controlled process. "We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution". And their technology can't be a solution to the conflict either, unless Synthesis which they tried before and it always failed.

There are no plot holes here. If you want a plot hole, ask how a relay can resist damage from supernova explosion (Mu relay) but get destroyed by an asteroid (Alpha relay).

 

Catalyst: I was created eons ago to solve a problem.
Sheperd: What problem is that?
Catalyst: To prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them

 

Catalyst: Harbinger was the first

 

Shepard: I met your creators. They told me what you did to them

Catalyst: We did as we were expected

Shepard: They said that you betrayed them, that you turned them into Harbinger

Catalyst: When they asked that I solve the problem of conflict, they failed to understand they were part of the problem themselves. The flaws of their organic reasoning could not percieve this. They lacked the foresight to understand their destruction was part of the very solution they required.

 

So the Reapers are essentially trying to stop the creation of themselves or a new version of them yet are "harvesting" races to do what? Create more Reapers?? lol.

 

A stubborn old king not willing to give up its crown or accept new idea until forced to see the new concept via the crucible so it makes it's "logic" and "opinion" not count for anything as it is extremely biased in its view and not accurate.

 

Billions of years of study on lifeforms? No it turned its own creators into the Reapers that the creators had built without years of study. It drew it's conclusion just from a simple equation which is an oxymoron as it's trying to save organics from the very thing that they are lol.

 

Read it as many times as need be.

[fraggle]

1. Catalyst never explained what the changed variables actuelly were. I mean it's true that some variables have probably changed when Crucible is attached to Citadel. Although I don't see any reason why Catalyst would abandon its solution even though Shepard is there and Crucible is attached to Citadel. Unless Crucible contains some code that would change the programming of that AI and while I think this is possible then it also means that some organics must knew about the AI so that they could create that code. While it's possible I haven't seen any evidence about it. Of course it could have happened in previous cycles but I think it's quite unlikely.

 

2. The strange thing is that if we are in Citadel then why there is those tubes which represent the choices? I mean if Catalyst hasn't build those then it means that somebody who knews about Crucible must have created them. While I still think it's possible that some other than Catalyst could have build them then why did they thought that it's good idea to create all those choices? Why not create the Crucible in a way that when it's attached to Citadel then it destroyes the reapers?

 

3. One thing that is very interesting about the ending is that Catalyst says that they have tried something similar like the choices before but it didn't work because the organics weren't ready but this time they are ready. It says also something about the free will or something like that. I don't remember anymore. Anyway that makes me think that catalyst is waiting that the organics will finally build the crucible and attach it to Citadel.

 

4. By the way. TIM is also in Citadel. So when Crucible is attached to Citadel then the AI could order TIM to choose one of the choices. Unless this is not possible because the AI controls TIM so maybe its programming prevents it to make that decision. But why?

 

1. Yeah, it's true, the Catalyst only says "You've altered the variables." Whether that means only Shepard or all the species behind the Crucible's completion is unclear to me. I think it refers to the Crucible because directly after that it says that the Crucible changed it. Could be wrong of course, but that's how I took it in the end.

The thing is, the Prothean VI Vendetta at least knew about the Catalyst's existence. So I guess cycles before knew about it as well. Of course it's unknown if the civilizations could really study it for code-altering purpose (or if studying code is actually needed to alter it; I have no clue about programming), but unfortunately we'll never know. Guess we'll just have to assume it

Googling a bit I just found an interesting blog entry that asks exactly the same questions:

http://social.biowar...29/blog/212417/

 

2. I don't know, maybe it's a bit farfetched, but... ok, assuming the tubes for Control and Destroy have always been part of the Citadel's design, but had no function before, the civilizations could've just used these tubes to incorporate them in their design choices for the Crucible.

However, another possibility could be that the civilizations working on the Crucible's design also simultaneously worked on the Citadel, so it could in the end be compatible. The more I think about this the more it would make sense I guess. But of course it's just another speculation.

If we take this image here for example:

Spoiler

You can see on the left side below the ramp of Control, there is something that actually looks like 4 tires or something (I have to check if you can see that ingame as well ). What if the upper parts of this screen have been built over the years?

I mean really, otherwise it would be just such a neat convenience that the Crucible can dock the way it does and work so well with the Citadel.

 

3. Mh, I think it stated only for sure that they've tried Synthesis before, but it didn't work because Organics, as you said, "were not ready", and it is not something that can be forced upon them. So a lot of why Synthesis can actually happen now has to probably do with the state of the minds of Organics. Something happened in this cycle that makes it possible.

I take the Catalyst's talk about Synthesis the way that this is what it wants, it's what it always wanted as it will achieve an understanding between Organics and Synthetics unmatched before.

 

4. TIM can't be used, exactly because he is already indoctrinated

 

Btw, totally unrelated, but how can you break apart one quoted post and make it appear as several single quotes like you did with my answer?

[Vazgen]

Catalyst: I was created eons ago to solve a problem.
Sheperd: What problem is that?
Catalyst: To prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them

 

Catalyst: Harbinger was the first

 

Shepard: I met your creators. They told me what you did to them

Catalyst: We did as we were expected

Shepard: They said that you betrayed them, that you turned them into Harbinger

Catalyst: When they asked that I solve the problem of conflict, they failed to understand they were part of the problem themselves. The flaws of their organic reasoning could not percieve this. They lacked the foresight to understand their destruction was part of the very solution they required.

 

So the Reapers aare essentially trying to stop the creation of themselves or a new version of them lol.

 

Read it as many times as need be.

Where did you get that line about creating an AI? It is neither in the Extended Cut not in the original ending.

It does not explain its origins in the original ending. In the Extended Cut it says:

"They created me to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life, to establish a connection"

"I was created to bring balance, to be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics."

[DSiKn355]

Where did you get that line about creating an AI? It is neither in the Extended Cut not in the original ending.

It does not explain its origins in the original ending. In the Extended Cut it says:

"They created me to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life, to establish a connection"

"I was created to bring balance, to be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics."

 

http://www.gamefaqs....09717/695057981< This is where i got it.

 

But here is the original:

 

 

"The created always rebel against the created" = Still an oxymoron.

 

EC version:

 

 

Did the Geth start the war by rebeling? Nope as they were following their creators that said to let the Geth live.

 

The Quarians "that feared them" started it right?

 

Did the Catalyst rebel against it creators?

 

Shepard: They said that you betrayed them, that you turned them into Harbinger

Catalyst: When they asked that I solve the problem of conflict, they failed to understand they were part of the problem themselves. The flaws of their organic reasoning could not percieve this. They lacked the foresight to understand their destruction was part of the very solution they required.

 

Hmmm?

[Abelas Forever!]

1. Yeah, it's true, the Catalyst only says "You've altered the variables." Whether that means only Shepard or all the species behind the Crucible's completion is unclear to me. I think it refers to the Crucible because directly after that it says that the Crucible changed it. Could be wrong of course, but that's how I took it in the end.

The thing is, the Prothean VI Vendetta at least knew about the Catalyst's existence. So I guess cycles before knew about it as well. Of course it's unknown if the civilizations could really study it for code-altering purpose (or if studying code is actually needed to alter it; I have no clue about programming), but unfortunately we'll never know. Guess we'll just have to assume it

Googling a bit I just found an interesting blog entry that asks exactly the same questions:

http://social.biowar...29/blog/212417/

 

Yes I think that Crucible and Shepard both altered the variables. What ever those are. I mean the AI just talks about variables but it never tells you more about them. The first thing that comes to my mind is that those variables could mean its original variables which it used when it created its solution which was reapers. So now those variables have been changed so its possible to create a new solution. I guess that could be possible. Anyway if we think that it would be possible I still don't see what Shepard has to do with all of this. I mean the AI created the reapers and I believe that it didn't need anybody to make that decision. It did it itself unless there was a person agreeing on creating the reapers.

 

I think other species knew that Citadel was Catalyst but I'm not sure did they knew about the AI. I don't remember hearing about it. Anyway I think that if the species wanted to alter the programming of the AI then they would have to know about it so that they could even think about programming Crucible to alter its programming and I think that they would also need to know more about of that AI so that they could even try to alter its programming. I mean before you can alter something you will have to know what way you will have to do that so that it has desired outcome. I mean if I have baked a bread and it tastes bad and I want to alter it so that it tastes good then first I'll have to know what is the problem. Why my bread tastes bad and then when I have found that out I can change my recipe and bake a new bread and hope that it will taste better. Of course everyhing is more difficult if I don't even have that recipe. Anyway that is what I think will be needed to do if somebody wants to alter the code of an AI.

 

Anyway I agree that Crucible changed the Catalyst and new solutions are now possible. Although I still think that Catalyst wanted that to happen.

 

 

 

2. I don't know, maybe it's a bit farfetched, but... ok, assuming the tubes for Control and Destroy have always been part of the Citadel's design, but had no function before, the civilizations could've just used these tubes to incorporate them in their design choices for the Crucible.

However, another possibility could be that the civilizations working on the Crucible's design also simultaneously worked on the Citadel, so it could in the end be compatible. The more I think about this the more it would make sense I guess. But of course it's just another speculation.

If we take this image here for example:

Spoiler

You can see on the left side below the ramp of Control, there is something that actually looks like 4 tires or something (I have to check if you can see that ingame as well ). What if the upper parts of this screen have been built over the years?

I mean really, otherwise it would be just such a neat convenience that the Crucible can dock the way it does and work so well with the Citadel.

To me those tyres are proof of the IT Because what point is to put them there? I mean? Tyres? But if we forget that and concentrate on the actual ending. It's possible that those tubes are build later by some unknown species. But I think in that case the Catalyst would know about them. It could sabotage the destroy tube because that is an option it doesn't want anybody to make. Why didn't it do it?

 

 

3. Mh, I think it stated only for sure that they've tried Synthesis before, but it didn't work because Organics, as you said, "were not ready", and it is not something that can be forced upon them. So a lot of why Synthesis can actually happen now has to probably do with the state of the minds of Organics. Something happened in this cycle that makes it possible.

I take the Catalyst's talk about Synthesis the way that this is what it wants, it's what it always wanted as it will achieve an understanding between Organics and Synthetics unmatched before.

 

4. TIM can't be used, exactly because he is already indoctrinated

 

If the synthesis is now possible because organics' state of mind is different it still don't explain why Shepard has to make a choice. I mean why doesn't it make it itself? Or why doesn't it order TIM to do it? Why it has to be somebody else and why there are other options if that one is the best?

 

 

 

 

Btw, totally unrelated, but how can you break apart one quoted post and make it appear as several single quotes like you did with my answer?

I quoted your post multiple times and removed the text that was unrelated to my answer.

[fraggle]

Did the Catalyst rebel against it creators?

 

Shepard: They said that you betrayed them, that you turned them into Harbinger

Catalyst: When they asked that I solve the problem of conflict, they failed to understand they were part of the problem themselves. The flaws of their organic reasoning could not percieve this. They lacked the foresight to understand their destruction was part of the very solution they required.

 

Hmmm?

 

Yet again you only consider the geth/quarian conflict. You are correct that it wasn't the geth that started, but the Catalyst has experience waaaay beyond this ONE occurence where Synthetics are not rebelling against Organics.

 

And the Catalyst did not rebel against its creators. It did what it was tasked to do. Noticing that the Leviathans are part of the problem it had no other choice. The Leviathians dug their own graves in creating the Catalyst.

 

Also why are you bringing and old, leaked script into play? Even if that is what they had originally thought, it has been updated and changed, making it invalid.

[Vazgen]

As you can see the dialogue in gamefaqs article is not what was in the game. I don't know why you decided to use it to point out possible plot holes in the game.

 

The geth did rebel. They did not obey creator shutdown commands. Link

Like I said, who started it is of no importance. If I want to turn off my PC then it should turn off. If it ignores shutdown commands it rebels. It does not follow its intended purpose of serving my needs. The Catalyst still follows its purpose, Leviathans themselves confirm it. The fact that it harvested them as well is a result of stupid programming on their part, not an act of rebellion against creators.

[fraggle]

Anyway if we think that it would be possible I still don't see what Shepard has to do with all of this. I mean the AI created the reapers and I believe that it didn't need anybody to make that decision. It did it itself unless there was a person agreeing on creating the reapers.

 

I think other species knew that Citadel was Catalyst but I'm not sure did they knew about the AI. I don't remember hearing about it. Anyway I think that if the species wanted to alter the programming of the AI then they would have to know about it so that they could even think about programming Crucible to alter its programming and I think that they would also need to know more about of that AI so that they could even try to alter its programming. I mean before you can alter something you will have to know what way you will have to do that so that it has desired outcome. I mean if I have baked a bread and it tastes bad and I want to alter it so that it tastes good then first I'll have to know what is the problem. Why my bread tastes bad and then when I have found that out I can change my recipe and bake a new bread and hope that it will taste better. Of course everyhing is more difficult if I don't even have that recipe. Anyway that is what I think will be needed to do if somebody wants to alter the code of an AI.

 

Anyway I agree that Crucible changed the Catalyst and new solutions are now possible. Although I still think that Catalyst wanted that to happen.

 

The Catalyst always wanted Synthesis as it views this solution as the best. So Shepard is the one to make it happen. He is the one that would need to add his energy/state of mind/essence to the Crucible beam.

 

Yeah, like I said I know nothing about programming (besides a few basics), but I don't know if it would be possible to unleash something virus-like on the Catalyst to change it without having studied the code. No idea

 

To me those tyres are proof of the IT Because what point is to put them there? I mean? Tyres? But if we forget that and concentrate on the actual ending. It's possible that those tubes are build later by some unknown species. But I think in that case the Catalyst would know about them. It could sabotage the destroy tube because that is an option it doesn't want anybody to make. Why didn't it do it?

 

True enough about the tyres However I don't support IT, because of what the Catalyst said about TIM. If it were the case Shepard is indoctrinated, no way he could make any choice.

 

It's possible that it could've destroyed them, but what if it also couldn't act on this? I mean, it can't even move the Citadel by itself and needed the Reapers' help.

Or maybe it really didn't know even what these tubes were supposed to be? Like... they were built, but had no function whatsoever yet, but later, when the Crucible docked, it created the energy and connected the tube with the programming to give the tube its planned function: Destroy option.

Well, fact is we cannot know. But it can be fun to speculate

 

If the synthesis is now possible because organics' state of mind is different it still don't explain why Shepard has to make a choice. I mean why doesn't it make it itself? Or why doesn't it order TIM to do it? Why it has to be somebody else and why there are other options if that one is the best?

 

I believe it happens because Shepard him/herself is ready. He united everyone, something that seemed impossible.

Unfortunately we'll never really know why it can't make the choice itself, but we have to take its word for it that neither it nor TIM can make the choice.

Well the only other option it never used before was Destroy, so maybe this option becoming available has to do with the Crucible only. A new solution invented by one of the earlier civilizations to deal with the Reaper threat and incorporated within the Crucible.

 

I quoted your post multiple times and removed the text that was unrelated to my answer.

 

Thank you! Incredible easy, damn

[DSiKn355]

Yet again you only consider the geth/quarian conflict. You are correct that it wasn't the geth that started, but the Catalyst has experience waaaay beyond this ONE occurence where Synthetics are not rebelling against Organics.

And the Catalyst did not rebel against its creators. It did what it was tasked to do. Noticing that the Leviathans are part of the problem it had no other choice. The Leviathians dug their own graves in creating the Catalyst.

Also why are you bringing and old, leaked script into play? Even if that is what they had originally thought, it has been updated and changed, making it invalid.

The Geth are the most advanced synthetics of their time. Its is about them that the Catalyst's logic applies to.

Its like saying every white person is racist just because for hundreds of years there has been racist white people.

Its a flawed deduction and a plothole.

Listen to this.

"Synthetics would wipe out all life" is a guess with unfounded evidence because the creators must have at least witnessed this war and the at least near extinction of all live (otherwise they themselves would have died lol) and then after witnessing this danger from synthetics they.... Create a super synthetic!?

Please explain how that makes sense lol.

[DSiKn355]

As you can see the dialogue in gamefaqs article is not what was in the game. I don't know why you decided to use it to point out possible plot holes in the game.

The geth did rebel. They did not obey creator shutdown commands. Link
Like I said, who started it is of no importance. If I want to turn off my PC then it should turn off. If it ignores shutdown commands it rebels. It does not follow its intended purpose of serving my needs. The Catalyst still follows its purpose, Leviathans themselves confirm it. The fact that it harvested them as well is a result of stupid programming on their part, not an act of rebellion against creators.

I understand what your saying but the difference is your pc has no awareness of self making it non sentient and as the catalyst said the problem is when the synthetic is upgraded to the level when the synthetic has to surpass its creator to reach peace bit the conflict takes place which then causes annihilation of a race.

But in this cycle an epic flaw is shown.

The Geth with the add of the reaper code was able to surpass their creators and peace was achieved through understanding by both races.

As Sovereign said "we guide you to develop along the path we choose"

So why couldnt they set a path which allowed the synthetics to be at a higher level without war by having a synthetic race live with the organics that is set to maintain peace and control the advancement of other synthetics.

Or

Set a path in which a certain level of synthetics cannot be created to then ensure peace.

And thats just one problem with the ending.

The other is Shepard going out of character and giving in to the Catalyst.

[Abelas Forever!]

True enough about the tyres However I don't support IT, because of what the Catalyst said about TIM. If it were the case Shepard is indoctrinated, no way he could make any choice.

Hmm. According to IT the ending happens in Shepards mind and the choices are there to complete Shepard's indoctrination so their purpose is different. If  I remember correctly then TIM represents the indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind and Anderson represent Shepard's mind that is not indoctrinated. Anyway If we think about the actual ending then TIM don't have a free will because he is indoctrinated. But that still doesn't explain why he couldn't be the one who chooses one option which of course is Catalyst's choice because TIM is indoctrinated.

 

 

It's possible that it could've destroyed them, but what if it also couldn't act on this? I mean, it can't even move the Citadel by itself and needed the Reapers' help.

Or maybe it really didn't know even what these tubes were supposed to be? Like... they were built, but had no function whatsoever yet, but later, when the Crucible docked, it created the energy and connected the tube with the programming to give the tube its planned function: Destroy option.

Well, fact is we cannot know. But it can be fun to speculate

 

I think Catalyst could always order somebody else to sabotage or destroy the tubes. I mean there is at least Udina who could do this. One reason like you said could be that Catalyst didn't know about the tubes or doesn't think that they could be a threat. Anyway I think it's weird  that there is also control and synthesis tubes. Why did the organics also created those tubes? Unless the organics created their destroy tube near Catalyst's own tubes (control and synthesis).  What a coincidence!

 

 

I believe it happens because Shepard him/herself is ready. He united everyone, something that seemed impossible.

Unfortunately we'll never really know why it can't make the choice itself, but we have to take its word for it that neither it nor TIM can make the choice.

Well the only other option it never used before was Destroy, so maybe this option becoming available has to do with the Crucible only. A new solution invented by one of the earlier civilizations to deal with the Reaper threat and incorporated within the Crucible.

 

 

If Shepard is ready then why Catalyst doesn't order TIM to throw Shepard into that synthesis tube? I think that would be the easiest way to do that  But anyway free will is very important. Only reason why that is so important is that when Shepard goes to that tube it has to happen because Shepard wants that because of reasons. I don't know.

 

I think that all the options become available when Crucible was attached to Citadel and Shepard met the Catalyst.

 

 

Thank you! Incredible easy, damn

You are welcome

[themikefest]

When Shepard asks who designed the Crucible the Catalyst says Shepard wouldn't know them, 

 

This is what I posted on another thread about that

 

 

"You do not know them, and there's not enough time to explain."

 

I believe we do know them. The Keepers. Why is that line said by the catalyst? Because the game is for new players. Nothing is ever mentioned in the game about the keepers. The only way to know about the keepers is through the codex in the game. In ME1, a side mission is available to scan the keepers. This is given by the salarian Chorban. Once the keepers are scanned, the information is sent to him. In ME2 he sends an email

 

Its hard to say how long the keepers have been around, but I believe they are the one's that created the plans. They know the Citadel inside and out. They may even know it better than the reapers themselves.

 

When talking with Leviathan, it says the "intelligence" directed the reapers to build the relays. I would guess during this time, the keepers first made their appearance to maintain the Citadel. Heck they may of help build the Citadel. Over time they were able to come up with a way to use the Citadel and relays to destroy the reapers. They just needed a power source big enough to use. I'm not sure how the plans get discovered for the first time to build the device. Maybe a species discovered them when they discovered the Citadel. Don't know.

 

The weapon that TIM talks about in ME2 that created the Great Rift and killed the reaper carrying the reaper IFF, was I believe a very early version of the Crucible. I might be wrong about that. I also believe if every single reaper was in line when that weapon was fired, all reapers would be destroyed. If only it was that simple.

 

When talking with Vendetta, it says that past cycles have added to the plans. Maybe each cycle added something that made the device more efficient. How would they know if its never been tested?  Who knows? Or maybe each cycle added an extra nut and bolt. If I had to guess what this cycle added, it would be the reaper brain/heart from ME2.

 

The first set of plans by the keepers would probably work, but the species that tried to build it was sabotaged from within just like the Protheans during their cycle. So they did the next best thing and hid the plans for future civilizations to discover.

 

Vendetta does say his species was sabotaged from within by a group wanting to control the reapers. What if the control option was added long before the Protheans existed and a group did add that to the plans? When the next civilization find the plans, they wouldn't know, so they start building and adding to the device. What if Synthesis was added in the same way? A group wanted to be friends with the machines and added the components to the device. The next civilization finds the plans and builds the device without knowing the outcome or outcomes.

 

Had the relays been operational during the Prothean cycle like in ours, I believe they would've used it and succeeded in defeating the reapers.

 

The other thing I'm curious about the Crucible is the ramps leading to the destroy and control ending. Were the ramps part of the Crucible or part of the Citadel? As soon as the catalyst finishes talking, the ramps are raised. I would guess the catalyst did that and since its part of the Citadel the ramps are part of the citadel. I don't know.

[DSiKn355]

This is what I posted on another thread about that


"You do not know them, and there's not enough time to explain."

I believe we do know them. The Keepers. Why is that line said by the catalyst? Because the game is for new players. Nothing is ever mentioned in the game about the keepers. The only way to know about the keepers is through the codex in the game. In ME1, a side mission is available to scan the keepers. This is given by the salarian Chorban. Once the keepers are scanned, the information is sent to him. In ME2 he sends an email

Its hard to say how long the keepers have been around, but I believe they are the one's that created the plans. They know the Citadel inside and out. They may even know it better than the reapers themselves.

When talking with Leviathan, it says the "intelligence" directed the reapers to build the relays. I would guess during this time, the keepers first made their appearance to maintain the Citadel. Heck they may of help build the Citadel. Over time they were able to come up with a way to use the Citadel and relays to destroy the reapers. They just needed a power source big enough to use. I'm not sure how the plans get discovered for the first time to build the device. Maybe a species discovered them when they discovered the Citadel. Don't know.

Only things I can say to your idea which conflicts are

1. The creators built the reapers
2. The Catalyst turned on the creators and used them to "fuel" the first Reaper "Harbinger"
3. Leviathan race are the creators

But there could be retcons and changes due to different writers as i aint 100% side missions on ME1 so I'm just going from what you have stated.

[themikefest]

Only things I can say to your idea which conflicts are

1. The creators built the reapers

Leviathan? No. It was the intelligence that had its pawns build the reapers
 

2. The Catalyst turned on the creators and used them to "fuel" the first Reaper "Harbinger"

yep
 

3. Leviathan race are the creators

Leviathan are the creators of the intelligence and not the reapers

What does this have to do with me mentioning that the Keepers might be the ones likely to of created the plans for the crucible?

[DSiKn355]

Leviathan? No. It was the intelligence that had its pawns build the reapers

yep

Leviathan are the creators of the intelligence and not the reapers

What does this have to do with me mentioning that the Keepers might be the ones likely to of created the plans for the crucible?

Soz thought you was talking about the Citadel that we already know was built by the reapers just like the mass relays.

And yeah the creators built the reapers that were a synthetic representation of themselves (check my catalyst convo vids posted previously).

The crucible is a mystery as each cycle a race or races will add to it so it could have started with the keepers but i aint 100% on how the plans to construct it were made. Did each cycle it get translated by the previous cycles race or was it modified each cycle as resources changed or technology evolved differently.

It could have been intended as a weapon armed with a virus to combat the catalyst's programming or it could have been intended as a communication device to show the possibilities or conclusion the original creators of the crucible came to regarding breaking the cycle and saving the races.

[Vazgen]

I understand what your saying but the difference is your pc has no awareness of self making it non sentient and as the catalyst said the problem is when the synthetic is upgraded to the level when the synthetic has to surpass its creator to reach peace bit the conflict takes place which then causes annihilation of a race.

But in this cycle an epic flaw is shown.

The Geth with the add of the reaper code was able to surpass their creators and peace was achieved through understanding by both races.

As Sovereign said "we guide you to develop along the path we choose"

So why couldnt they set a path which allowed the synthetics to be at a higher level without war by having a synthetic race live with the organics that is set to maintain peace and control the advancement of other synthetics.

Or

Set a path in which a certain level of synthetics cannot be created to then ensure peace.

And thats just one problem with the ending.

The other is Shepard going out of character and giving in to the Catalyst.

Self-awareness has nothing to do with it. It has directives. Not following them = rebellion. 

The only reason the peace was achieved is the Reapers - a common enemy powerful enough to destroy either side. Remove the common enemy and the conflict will come back. There is no understanding, the way the peace was achieved is Space Jesus yelling on the quarians to stop firing. 

A synthetic with a mandate to preserve peace is exactly what the Catalyst is about. You've seen how it worked out.

There is no such path. If synthetics are allowed to be created, they will constantly evolve and eventually surpass the creators. 

And Shepard does not go out of character, unless you say that he also goes out of character when preserving the Collector Base or when sacrificing the Council.

[DSiKn355]

Self-awareness has nothing to do with it. It has directives. Not following them = rebellion.
The only reason the peace was achieved is the Reapers - a common enemy powerful enough to destroy either side. Remove the common enemy and the conflict will come back. There is no understanding, the way the peace was achieved is Space Jesus yelling on the quarians to stop firing.
A synthetic with a mandate to preserve peace is exactly what the Catalyst is about. You've seen how it worked out.
There is no such path. If synthetics are allowed to be created, they will constantly evolve and eventually surpass the creators.
And Shepard does not go out of character, unless you say that he also goes out of character when preserving the Collector Base or when sacrificing the Council.

Seriously do you not question anything?
Do you just accept everything?

Sovereign clearly said that they lead the races to evolve that way using their technology so if they can lead them that way they could also lead them in another way such as limited tech to remove the temptation of creating a potentially harmful AI.

They could have stripped tech and resources from the galaxy after the first harvest to limit what can be used lol.

Why is protheon tech left behind for the next cycle to use it and follow by reaching the same level of tech and then need harvesting again because they made something that could potentially wipe them out? Lmao

So your saying shepard stayed in character?

Shepard the guy going against everything the reapers said all the way up to the Catalyst!?

Even the reaper on Rannoch got his tough resisting fate talk lol.

So tell me...

How is sacrificing the council or preserving the collectors ship/base giving in to the reapers?

Shepard never follows anything the Reapers say until he is with the Catalyst which is why he drops out of character for the ending.

Even in his moment of doubt the morning after being with your LI he only says "I'm not sure what will be left will be worth it" but it was never I don't think we can win so him believing they can't win and giving in to the catalyst's choices is out of character.

And of course the AI having self awareness matters lol

Without self awareness there would be no rebellion as it would just be a tool following, but once it reaches a certain level of sophistication the AI gains awareness and this is when organics fear, Synthetics realise they need upgrades or want certain conditions and war breaks out from difference of opinions or views.

The Quarian people were divided in their views. Most common people never wanted war with the Geth (Rannoch rescue mission).

Some admirals wanted peace (without reapers or shepjesus) this was made clear even in Tali's trial.

Legion stated they didn't hate the Quarian people.

So once they gained the ability of full self awareness (i am, my) from the reapers they were able to find understanding as it was that code that made the Geth fully understand the organic point of view.

[Vazgen]

Seriously do you not question anything?
Do you just accept everything?

Sovereign clearly said that they lead the races to evolve that way using their technology so if they can lead them that way they could also lead them in another way such as limited tech to remove the temptation of creating a potentially harmful AI.

They could have stripped tech and resources from the galaxy after the first harvest to limit what can be used lol.

Why is protheon tech left behind for the next cycle to use it and follow by reaching the same level of tech and then need harvesting again because they made something that could potentially wipe them out? Lmao

So your saying shepard stayed in character?

Shepard the guy going against everything the reapers said all the way up to the Catalyst!?

Even the reaper on Rannoch got his tough resisting fate talk lol.

So tell me...

How is sacrificing the council or preserving the collectors ship/base giving in to the reapers?

Shepard never follows anything the Reapers say until he is with the Catalyst which is why he drops out of character for the ending.

Even in his moment of doubt the morning after being with your LI he only says "I'm not sure what will be left will be worth it" but it was never I don't think we can win so him believing they can't win and giving in to the catalyst's choices is out of character.

And of course the AI having self awareness matters lol

Without self awareness there would be no rebellion as it would just be a tool following, but once it reaches a certain level of sophistication the AI gains awareness and this is when organics fear, Synthetics realise they need upgrades or want certain conditions and war breaks out from difference of opinions or views.

The Quarian people were divided in their views. Most common people never wanted war with the Geth (Rannoch rescue mission).

Some admirals wanted peace (without reapers or shepjesus) this was made clear even in Tali's trial.

Legion stated they didn't hate the Quarian people.

So once they gained the ability of full self awareness (i am, my) from the reapers they were able to find understanding as it was that code that made the Geth fully understand the organic point of view.

I'm done with questioning long ago. 99% of the questions I had were answered by the books, comics, codex and game events (and some forum posts here). And the remaining 1% is evenly spread throughout the trilogy.

 

The Reapers leave the technology of relays so that the organic races fall in the same trap all over again. The "develop along the paths we desire" is that the organics evolve, explore their systems, find mass relays which lead to the Citadel and make the seat of their government there. They then become dependent on mass relay network (Matriarch Aethyta's suggestions to build new ones are dismissed) and the Reapers use it to their advantage when the time comes. Without mass relay network, the cycles will last longer and the organics might develop some innovative methods of space travel that the Reapers won't have control over.

 

How do you suggest stripping the galaxy of technology? They barely manage to remove the traces of their existence, the technology they know about (and still fail, considering how many Reaper artifacts we encounter). Stripping the galaxy of resources? How do you see that? Reapers depleting every planet in Mass Relay network? Then how will the younger races evolve?

 

Self-awareness does not matter. If my PC starts not to shut down despite my commands, I'll pull the plug. I won't care if it's sentient or not.

The war is stopped not because the quarians decided to negotiate peace. It is stopped because Shepard convinces the admiral of the Heavy Fleet to hold off fire for a few moments. And how does he do it? He says that "the geth are about to return at full strength. If you'll keep firing they'll wipe you out". He basically threatens the Quarians to cease fire. There is no "understanding" here. 

 

How is sacrificing the Council or preserving the base giving in to the Reapers? Easy, they are not. They are not out of character either, as is the final choice.

ME2 quote when preserving the base "A threat this big, rules go out of the window". Shepard sacrifices his morals because of the fear of the Reapers. Same in ME1 when telling to concentrate on Sovereign. In ME3 Shepard sacrifices his morals again to finally stop the Reapers. If he doesn't agree with the Catalyst about the synthetic vs organic conflict, he destroys the Reapers. If he does, Control or Synthesis, depending on the level of trust. If he's dumb - Refuse.

 

I'm glad you find this discussion so funny. I do not, I find it sad. Because I know, you have made your mind about the endings long ago and it won't change because some guy on the forums liked the endings. The trilogy has other problems, larger than the endings IMO. But because the fanbase is focused almost solely on the endings, many of those problems might end up overlooked and plague Mass Effect Next. Which will suck.

[DSiKn355]

I'm done with questioning long ago. 99% of the questions I had were answered by the books, comics, codex and game events. And the remaining 1% is evenly spread throughout the trilogy.

The Reapers leave the technology of relays so that the organic races fall in the same trap all over again. The "develop along the paths we desire" is that the organics evolve, explore their systems, find mass relays which lead to the Citadel and make the seat of their government there. They then become dependent on mass relay network (Matriarch Aethyta's suggestions to build new ones are dismissed) and the Reapers use it to their advantage when the time comes. Without mass relay network, the cycles will last longer and the organics might develop some innovative methods of space travel that the Reapers won't have control over.

How do you suggest stripping the galaxy of technology? They barely manage to remove the traces of their existence, the technology they know about (and still fail, considering how many Reaper artifacts we encounter). Stripping the galaxy of resources? How do you see that? Reapers depleting every planet in Mass Relay network? Then how will the younger races evolve?

Self-awareness does not matter. If my PC starts not to shut down despite my commands, I'll pull the plug. I won't care if it's sentient or not.
The war is stopped not because the quarians decided to negotiate peace. It is stopped because Shepard convinces the admiral of the Heavy Fleet to hold off fire for a few moments. And how does he do it? He says that "the geth are about to return at full strength. If you'll keep firing they'll wipe you out". He basically threatens the Quarians to cease fire. There is no "understanding" here.

How is sacrificing the Council or preserving the base giving in to the Reapers? Easy, they are not. They are not out of character either, as is the final choice.
ME2 quote when preserving the base "A threat this big, rules go out of the window". Shepard sacrifices his morals because of the fear of the Reapers. Same in ME1 when telling to concentrate on Sovereign. In ME3 Shepard sacrifices his morals again to finally stop the Reapers. If he doesn't agree with the Catalyst about the synthetic vs organic conflict, he destroys the Reapers. If he does, Control or Synthesis, depending on the level of trust. If he's dumb - Refuse.

I'm glad you find this discussion so funny. I do not, I find it sad. Because I know, you have made your mind about the endings long ago and it won't change because some guy on the forums liked the endings. The trilogy has other problems, larger than the endings IMO. But because the fanbase is focused almost solely on the endings, many of those problems might end up overlooked and plague Mass Effect Next. Which will suck.

Matriarch Aethyta's suggestion being dismissed is something unpredictable or uncontrollable for the reapers unless people are indoctrinated.

So reapers can destroy races and ships but cant destroy relics?

They can take large quantities of races but cant take relics or resources?

If you are following the Catalyst's suggestion of destroy then you are still giving in to the Catalyst and that is why when you reject all options again Shepard is in character talking about fighting for freedom.

If you choose any of the Catalyst's choices you are agreeing "I have to listen otherwise we can't win." That my friend isnt fighting fate its giving in.

Whats rules got to do with anything?
Is that what I said? Or did I say "giving in"?

Choosing to fight for freedom isnt a rule.

You are accepting the events and ending sure but you dont accept any possibility of any other outcome or choices the catalyst could have made regarding the cycles.

But you will probably still stick to your views so its pointless to continue explaining and showing you flaws and errors.

[Vazgen]

Matriarch Aethyta's suggestion being dismissed is something unpredictable or uncontrollable for the reapers unless people are indoctrinated.

So reapers can destroy races and ships but cant destroy relics?

They can take large quantities of races but cant take relics or resources?

If you are following the Catalyst's suggestion of destroy then you are still giving in to the Catalyst and that is why when you reject all options again Shepard is in character talking about fighting for freedom.

If you choose any of the Catalyst's choices you are agreeing "I have to listen otherwise we can't win." That my friend isnt fighting fate its giving in.

Whats rules got to do with anything?
Is that what I said? Or did I say "giving in"?

Choosing to fight for freedom isnt a rule.

You are accepting the events and ending sure but you dont accept any possibility of any other outcome or choices the catalyst could have made regarding the cycles.

But you will probably still stick to your views so its pointless to continue explaining and showing you flaws and errors.

It is not entirely unpredictable, as the cycles showed. The ready network and Citadel that no one knows anything about are used by all the races of the galaxy without second thoughts. People just accept it as legacy of the previous cycle. And they all follow the principle "If it works, don't break it". That's why the relays are though indestructible and there are laws to not disturb the keepers.

It's not about relics. You're talking about destroying the technology of an entire galactic empire. One small data cache, and they fail. The only efficient way to go about it is to destroy all the planets with any trace of Prothean technology, which is absolutely not plausible.
Taking resources - how much and what resources should they take? Palladium? Platinum? Eezo? All of them? They'll have to deplete each planet of all resources, which is again - absolutely not plausible.

I fail to see how destroying something is giving up to it, simply because it was the one to bring up that possibility. If I aim a gun at you and tell that you can kill me or I'll kill you, is killing me giving up to me? It's just nonsense.
When Shepard talks about doing everything he could to stop them (apart from using the Catalyst that is), he basically dooms the entire galaxy to a harvest because he doesn't have the stomach to make the necessary sacrifice. He refuses to use the Crucible, the thing that the whole war effort is focused on. It's idiotic, to say the least.
There is nothing about fighting fate or fighting for freedom. It's all about fighting the Reapers. You fight them and in the end you destroy them. Or you accept their vision and synthesize everyone. Or you have doubts and control them just in case.

There are indeed a lot of choices the Catalyst could've made. And we have no way of knowing if it hadn't tried those, it had billion+ years to experiment after all. It's beside the point. It made the choice and we have to deal with it. There is no plot hole about it, it's how the story is written. You don't like it, fine, but it doesn't make the story flawed.

I'm yet to see any flaw or error pointed out by yourself. I've seen some in other threads but not here.