407 réponses à ce sujet

[DSiKn355]

It is not entirely unpredictable, as the cycles showed. The ready network and Citadel that no one knows anything about are used by all the races of the galaxy without second thoughts. People just accept it as legacy of the previous cycle. And they all follow the principle "If it works, don't break it". That's why the relays are though indestructible and there are laws to not disturb the keepers.

It's not about relics. You're talking about destroying the technology of an entire galactic empire. One small data cache, and they fail. The only efficient way to go about it is to destroy all the planets with any trace of Prothean technology, which is absolutely not plausible.
Taking resources - how much and what resources should they take? Palladium? Platinum? Eezo? All of them? They'll have to deplete each planet of all resources, which is again - absolutely not plausible.

I fail to see how destroying something is giving up to it, simply because it was the one to bring up that possibility. If I aim a gun at you and tell that you can kill me or I'll kill you, is killing me giving up to me? It's just nonsense.
When Shepard talks about doing everything he could to stop them (apart from using the Catalyst that is), he basically dooms the entire galaxy to a harvest because he doesn't have the stomach to make the necessary sacrifice. He refuses to use the Crucible, the thing that the whole war effort is focused on. It's idiotic, to say the least.
There is nothing about fighting fate or fighting for freedom. It's all about fighting the Reapers. You fight them and in the end you destroy them. Or you accept their vision and synthesize everyone. Or you have doubts and control them just in case.

There are indeed a lot of choices the Catalyst could've made. And we have no way of knowing if it hadn't tried those, it had billion+ years to experiment after all. It's beside the point. It made the choice and we have to deal with it. There is no plot hole about it, it's how the story is written. You don't like it, fine, but it doesn't make the story flawed.

I'm yet to see any flaw or error pointed out by yourself. I've seen some in other threads but not here.

 

I have pointed out many flaws but you choose not to accept them or ignore them lol.

 

you want another?

 

"We harvest life to make way for the lesser races"

 

Really? Let me tell you evolution doesn't work like that. The only way another race could impose on another's evolution is if it eradicated them.

 

Whether an enemy (always attacking the lesser race) or ignorant (doesn't care about the lesser race) the lesser race will still evolve.

It's only it's adaptability that will adjust to it environment e.g always lives in cave = sensitive to light, small or hunched over etc etc.

 

And how does leaving a mass relay system help say... a worm evolve into a thresher maw?

The lesser race would first need to evolve before the mass relay could even matter so that point is complete bull lol.

 

Not plausible to take/destroy each technology of the protheons over the however many worlds they colonized yet the reapers are able to not leave a single body on any said colony? I guarantee you their was more bodies then protheon becons and other technologies lol.

 

here's the thing with destroy...

 

1. The prediction of cycles repeating still

 

For this to happen it would mean Reapers would still exist somewhere meaning destroy is not 100% true as it just holds of this wave or a prediction of a new type of reaper being made by another race during a cycle.

 

2. The Plothole

 

If reapers will be made again because the original reapers are not there to interfere then they don't need to interfere in the first place as all organics would not be wiped out as one of the races would repeat the cycle and create their version of a reaper right? So the original reapers would not need to interfere as the harvesting would still be done anyway and all organics would never ever face annihilation because the process of a reaper being created would happen anyway.

 

And this:

 

"There are indeed a lot of choices the Catalyst could've made. And we have no way of knowing if it hadn't tried those, it had billion+ years to experiment after all."

 

Is a mistake as the Catalyst/Intelligence turned on its creators and made them the first Reaper Harbinger meaning within that cycle they drew that "Reaper's are the answer" and stuck to it since then.

 

And lets not forget that "The creators built the Reapers in their own image" so this means it was the plan from day 1 and the intelligence or Catalyst saw no other solution and didn't even attempt to process the data differently if any such data was given in the first place as no other method was used.

 

The ultra simple solution of "remove the cause" was not attempted.

Instead it was "Allow them to get to the point of.. Then harvest them."

 

https://youtu.be/MnoTHbvl2Wg?t=3m9s

[angol fear]

@DSiK355,

for someone who is 33years old and father, I think you spend a lot of time on internet. I think you have spent too much time reading/watching haters, and not enough understanding what the developers said. But that's my opinion, and luckily, you're here to explain us why we're ( those who defend the game and the developers themselves) wrong.

 

"You never answered my one question lol.

 

I never said about mass effect 1?  Pretty sure I mentioned ME1.

And what codex things did you mention?

 

Are you talking about 2 posts ago or even further back??"

 

That's quite a childish answer. Did you see that I said quite politely that? what I said was between parenthesis, you're supposed to be old enough to know that parenthesis are not that important. And I said that :  (And I noticed that you answered none of my questions!)

You can take a look at my posts, there are questions that you may have though to be rhetorical questions but it wasn't.  So why did I need your answer? Because as long as you take the same method the hater use, you'll be hating the game. What is their method? It's easy : just ignore what the developers said ( or simply interpete it in a wrong way ) and always talk about details. If you take a puzzle and only talk about it pieces by pieces, you never see the picture. You have to see the picture to know why the pieces are put together.

 

Mentionning Me1 isn't enough you didn't tell me anything about your expectations when you played Mass Effect 1. that's an important question because there are answers in Mass Effect 1. And when I talked about the different levels : Shepard who doesn't read the codex, it's the player who read the codex, I asked if you agree with me, once again, I needed your answer to go further.

So I'll do as if you said that you were ok that there are different levels. So the first level is the narration where Shepard is, and he's stuck in the events, he can't see the big picture, and he doesn't have time. The second level is the player's. The player can step back from the events, he reads the codex, he can ask himself some questions and he can make an analysis of the structure of the narration. Some clues are given to the players.

If you accept that you have to accept that the A.I. is on another level, on a "higher level".

 

So you're upset about why Shepard didn't rebel? There can be several explanations.

-Shepard is almost dead, he doesn't the strenght.

-Shepard is psychologycally destroyed by what he learns : almost everything was wrong.

-Shepard understands that the A.I. could be right.

-Shepard understands that he needs the A.I. to stop the harvest, he can't stop the reapers without him (it?).

 

You can add other explanations if you want. But you'll noticed that there is no refusal ending in the original ending. At least Shepard is supposed to understand that if he wants to stop the reapers he has to "agree" with the A.I. which is on a level that is beyond what Shepard thought. It's the same thing in Alan Moore's Watchmen, or Bon joon ho's snowpiercer. Maybe the player can disagree but he has to accept the truth, just like Shepard does.

[DSiKn355]

@DSiK355,
for someone who is 33years old and father, I think you spend a lot of time on internet. I think you have spent too much time reading/watching haters, and not enough understanding what the developers said. But that's my opinion, and luckily, you're here to explain us why we're ( those who defend the game and the developers themselves) wrong.

"You never answered my one question lol.

I never said about mass effect 1? Pretty sure I mentioned ME1.
And what codex things did you mention?

Are you talking about 2 posts ago or even further back??"

That's quite a childish answer. Did you see that I said quite politely that? what I said was between parenthesis, you're supposed to be old enough to know that parenthesis are not that important. And I said that : (And I noticed that you answered none of my questions!)
You can take a look at my posts, there are questions that you may have though to be rhetorical questions but it wasn't. So why did I need your answer? Because as long as you take the same method the hater use, you'll be hating the game. What is their method? It's easy : just ignore what the developers said ( or simply interpete it in a wrong way ) and always talk about details. If you take a puzzle and only talk about it pieces by pieces, you never see the picture. You have to see the picture to know why the pieces are put together.

Mentionning Me1 isn't enough you didn't tell me anything about your expectations when you played Mass Effect 1. that's an important question because there are answers in Mass Effect 1. And when I talked about the different levels : Shepard who doesn't read the codex, it's the player who read the codex, I asked if you agree with me, once again, I needed your answer to go further.
So I'll do as if you said that you were ok that there are different levels. So the first level is the narration where Shepard is, and he's stuck in the events, he can't see the big picture, and he doesn't have time. The second level is the player's. The player can step back from the events, he reads the codex, he can ask himself some questions and he can make an analysis of the structure of the narration. Some clues are given to the players.
If you accept that you have to accept that the A.I. is on another level, on a "higher level".

So you're upset about why Shepard didn't rebel? There can be several explanations.
-Shepard is almost dead, he doesn't the strenght.
-Shepard is psychologycally destroyed by what he learns : almost everything was wrong.
-Shepard understands that the A.I. could be right.
-Shepard understands that he needs the A.I. to stop the harvest, he can't stop the reapers without him (it?).

You can add other explanations if you want. But you'll noticed that there is no refusal ending in the original ending. At least Shepard is supposed to understand that if he wants to stop the reapers he has to "agree" with the A.I. which is on a level that is beyond what Shepard thought. It's the same thing in Alan Moore's Watchmen, or Bon joon ho's snowpiercer. Maybe the player can disagree but he has to accept the truth, just like Shepard does.

You open with an attack on me (Character defamation) yet call me childish?

Bravo lol.

The internet is accessable everywhere nowadays even from phones so you have the freedom to use it while at work FYI lol.

Well with the 3 endings only Synthesis is supposed to be the permanent solution.

Destroy = the cycle will continue again at some point

Control = no guarantee Shepards consciousness can maintain control indefinitely

Synthesis = permanent solution but goes against preserving life (plothole) as it creates a new DNA shared by all so that means human, quarian, turian etc etc etc all their DNA is now corrupted/changed thus no longer preserved.

See liquidizing a race into a reaper can be argued as perservation via DNA as the DNA remains intact and untouched but synthesis has no such argument which would then mean the Catalyst is going against its own programming.

What I expected from ME after playing ME1...

An epic battle against the reapers who are looking to invade in the future.

And yes the codex is obviously an information source for the player to better understand and connect with the games universe/narrative.

[Vazgen]

I have pointed out many flaws but you choose not to accept them or ignore them lol.

 

you want another?

 

"We harvest life to make way for the lesser races"

 

Really? Let me tell you evolution doesn't work like that. The only way another race could impose on another's evolution is if it eradicated them.

 

Whether an enemy (always attacking the lesser race) or ignorant (doesn't care about the lesser race) the lesser race will still evolve.

It's only it's adaptability that will adjust to it environment e.g always lives in cave = sensitive to light, small or hunched over etc etc.

 

And how does leaving a mass relay system help say... a worm evolve into a thresher maw?

The lesser race would first need to evolve before the mass relay could even matter so that point is complete bull lol.

 

Not plausible to take/destroy each technology of the protheons over the however many worlds they colonized yet the reapers are able to not leave a single body on any said colony? I guarantee you their was more bodies then protheon becons and other technologies lol.

 

here's the thing with destroy...

 

1. The prediction of cycles repeating still

 

For this to happen it would mean Reapers would still exist somewhere meaning destroy is not 100% true as it just holds of this wave or a prediction of a new type of reaper being made by another race during a cycle.

 

2. The Plothole

 

If reapers will be made again because the original reapers are not there to interfere then they don't need to interfere in the first place as all organics would not be wiped out as one of the races would repeat the cycle and create their version of a reaper right? So the original reapers would not need to interfere as the harvesting would still be done anyway and all organics would never ever face annihilation because the process of a reaper being created would happen anyway.

 

And this:

 

"There are indeed a lot of choices the Catalyst could've made. And we have no way of knowing if it hadn't tried those, it had billion+ years to experiment after all."

 

Is a mistake as the Catalyst/Intelligence turned on its creators and made them the first Reaper Harbinger meaning within that cycle they drew that "Reaper's are the answer" and stuck to it since then.

 

And lets not forget that "The creators built the Reapers in their own image" so this means it was the plan from day 1 and the intelligence or Catalyst saw no other solution and didn't even attempt to process the data differently if any such data was given in the first place as no other method was used.

 

The ultra simple solution of "remove the cause" was not attempted.

Instead it was "Allow them to get to the point of.. Then harvest them."

 

https://youtu.be/MnoTHbvl2Wg?t=3m9s

I explained how each of the "flaws" you brought was not a flow but you chose to ignore or don't accept it. LOL

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Protheans forced other races to become subjects of their empire. They guided their evolution (asari biotics). How is it not interfering? Humans too were planned to become such a subject. Had the Reapers not harvested the Protheans, humanity would've been a subject of the Prothean empire. It leaves "younger ones alone" to evolve in peace. Then they develop space travel and find mass relays. The technology of the relays is much more advanced than theirs and the discovery results in a technological leap. It also means that the technology of all races becomes predictable and with certain limitations. 

 

OK, let's see. Say you are able to capture every human on Earth now (which even the Reapers can't do BTW). How would you make sure that there is no trace of human technology left? Make the whole planet a charred rock? Because that is pretty much the only way of making sure that technology does not survive in the next cycle. Do you suggest them to destroy all the planets in mass relay network? Furthermore, they don't need to destroy that technology. Prothean technology too is based on Reaper tech. Finding and using it is all part of the same trap.

 

The prediction of cycle repeating is not a plothole. And it certainly does not mean that there are still Reapers left somewhere. If the cycle repeats itself and the Reapers were destroyed, the organics have an "I win" button - the Crucible. 

 

The child says that their "efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required". You seem to forget that there were races subservient to Leviathans and they were the ones creating synthetics. That was the whole reason for the Catalyst's creation. We don't know for how long did it try different solutions before coming up with the idea of the Reapers. When talking about Synthesis it says that they tried "a similar solution in the past. But it has always failed".

 

And ultra simple solution of "remove the cause" is attempted every cycle. They give races of the galaxy 50.000 years to figure out the solution themselves and leave a vanguard to monitor the situation. Our cycle created the geth - we failed. 

[DSiKn355]

I explained how each of the "flaws" you brought was not a flow but you chose to ignore or don't accept it. LOL

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Protheans forced other races to become subjects of their empire. They guided their evolution (asari biotics). How is it not interfering? Humans too were planned to become such a subject. Had the Reapers not harvested the Protheans, humanity would've been a subject of the Prothean empire. It leaves "younger ones alone" to evolve in peace. Then they develop space travel and find mass relays. The technology of the relays is much more advanced than theirs and the discovery results in a technological leap. It also means that the technology of all races becomes predictable and with certain limitations.

OK, let's see. Say you are able to capture every human on Earth now (which even the Reapers can't do BTW). How would you make sure that there is no trace of human technology left? Make the whole planet a charred rock? Because that is pretty much the only way of making sure that technology does not survive in the next cycle. Do you suggest them to destroy all the planets in mass relay network? Furthermore, they don't need to destroy that technology. Prothean technology too is based on Reaper tech. Finding it and using it is all part of the same trap.

The prediction of cycle repeating is not a plothole. And it certainly does not mean that there are still Reapers left somewhere. If the cycle repeats itself and the Reapers were destroyed, the organics have an "I win" button - the Crucible.

The child says that their "efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required". You seem to forget that there were races subservient to Leviathans and they were the ones creating synthetics. That was the whole reason for the Catalyst's creation. We don't know for how long did it try different solutions before coming up with the idea of the Reapers. When talking about Synthesis it says that they tried "a similar solution in the past. But it has always failed".

And ultra simple solution of "remove the cause" is attempted every cycle. They give races of the galaxy 50.000 years to figure out the solution themselves and leave a vanguard to monitor the situation. Our cycle created the geth - we failed.

Why does it have to be nuke the planet to remove the tech? They would have 1000's of years until the next races rises to a sentient form so they would have plenty of time to search throughly and remove all tech.

Yes exactly the tech left behind just causes a repeat to the cycle and the actual issue is antagonized as the jump in tech encourages the production of high level synthetics which the conflict is born from and speeds up the time to harvesting which then cuts short the natural life cycle of those races.

And the Geth is one race of synthetics that had a war with their creators but never threatened organics on a whole. Hell if the quarians left them alone there would have been no further conflicts. Peace could have been achieved by just leaving them alone. They were not the galactic threat the catalyst spoke of.

Subserviant to the Leviathan yet couldnt follow commands or orders for peace? Or was it just the Leviathans didnt even think to issue such commands?

I mean think about it. If you just witnessed the near extinction of an entire galaxy (which the Leviathans needed to have seen to then draw the conclusions they did) why the hell would you then permit synthetics of such a high class to be in existence if your goal is preserving the organic races?

Could you explain that for me?

[fraggle]

Its like saying every white person is racist just because for hundreds of years there has been racist white people.
Its a flawed deduction and a plothole.

 

I believe that's called prejudice and not plothole.

 

Hmm. According to IT the ending happens in Shepards mind and the choices are there to complete Shepard's indoctrination so their purpose is different. If  I remember correctly then TIM represents the indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind and Anderson represent Shepard's mind that is not indoctrinated. Anyway If we think about the actual ending then TIM don't have a free will because he is indoctrinated. But that still doesn't explain why he couldn't be the one who chooses one option which of course is Catalyst's choice because TIM is indoctrinated.

 

Ah, I see, I forgot about that aspect. That would make sense of course, but then again I am really no supporter of Shepard being indoctrinated

Do you think maybe this could be Reaper-related? Maybe the Crucible doesn't allow reaperized beings to make one of the choices. And when it docked, assuming that the solutions were added with the Crucible, then he couldn't have used it because of the indoctrination.

 

I think Catalyst could always order somebody else to sabotage or destroy the tubes. I mean there is at least Udina who could do this. One reason like you said could be that Catalyst didn't know about the tubes or doesn't think that they could be a threat. Anyway I think it's weird  that there is also control and synthesis tubes. Why did the organics also created those tubes? Unless the organics created their destroy tube near Catalyst's own tubes (control and synthesis).  What a coincidence!

 

Ah, I thought about this thread here yesterday, and especially this post here: http://forum.bioware...ble/?p=18754376

The whole thread is interesting though

 

If Shepard is ready then why Catalyst doesn't order TIM to throw Shepard into that synthesis tube? I think that would be the easiest way to do that  But anyway free will is very important. Only reason why that is so important is that when Shepard goes to that tube it has to happen because Shepard wants that because of reasons. I don't know.

 

I think that all the options become available when Crucible was attached to Citadel and Shepard met the Catalyst.

 

Haha, that would've been funny, but I guess yes, it has to do with the "free will" thing again. Catalyst said that Synthesis can't be forced, so what would happen is that it would not work if Shepard is thrown in against his will? Maybe?

 

I believe we do know them. The Keepers. Why is that line said by the catalyst? Because the game is for new players. Nothing is ever mentioned in the game about the keepers. The only way to know about the keepers is through the codex in the game. In ME1, a side mission is available to scan the keepers. This is given by the salarian Chorban. Once the keepers are scanned, the information is sent to him. In ME2 he sends an email

[...]

Vendetta does say his species was sabotaged from within by a group wanting to control the reapers. What if the control option was added long before the Protheans existed and a group did add that to the plans? When the next civilization find the plans, they wouldn't know, so they start building and adding to the device. What if Synthesis was added in the same way? A group wanted to be friends with the machines and added the components to the device. The next civilization finds the plans and builds the device without knowing the outcome or outcomes.

The other thing I'm curious about the Crucible is the ramps leading to the destroy and control ending. Were the ramps part of the Crucible or part of the Citadel? As soon as the catalyst finishes talking, the ramps are raised. I would guess the catalyst did that and since its part of the Citadel the ramps are part of the citadel. I don't know.

 

 

But doesn't the e-mail only talk about discovering that the Keepers are made of the same bio...structure or something as Sovereign? And Chorban came to the conclusion that the Citadel actually wasn't built by Protheans, as assumed at this point, but by something else? Were the Crucible plans even mentioned in the e-mail?

 

For the other thing, yes, that's what I always believed, too. Someone might have built in these solutions, because I just can't see why the Catalyst would build them in. Maybe Control and Synthesis, but never Destroy as it's clearly against that.

You make a good point about the ramps, I think it is the Catalyst that moves them, just as it lifted up Shepard on the platform. So in a certain way, it does have at least a bit control of the Citadel. Or maybe the Catalyst also only activates these things now because it was re-programmed by the Crucible to do so?

 

If you choose any of the Catalyst's choices you are agreeing "I have to listen otherwise we can't win." That my friend isnt fighting fate its giving in.
[...]
You are accepting the events and ending sure but you dont accept any possibility of any other outcome or choices the catalyst could have made regarding the cycles.

 

You know why we accept this? Because it's what we got. You wanted something else? That's fine. You say it was out of character for your Shepard? Ok, it wasn't for mine. You know how often there was talk about stopping the Reapers at any cost, including Shepard saying it? ("I'll do whatever it takes.") So what, then the cost is to sacrifice and "give in", taking the Catalyst by its word and choose Destroy. The ultimate goal is achieved.

Slowly I come to the conclusion that the ideal choice for you would be Refuse. If you don't want to give in to the Catalyst that's your only choice. And before you say "but we could've had more/other choices" again, yes, we could have, but we didn't get them. What you want is a hypothetical other solution, but we did not get it in this game. Why did the Catalyst choose what it did, why do we sometimes choose certain things and not see other solutions? It's not always about rationality. And you know how sometimes other people can open our eyes and present a solution we didn't see because they have an "outside perspective"? It could apply to the Catalyst as well.

 

1. The prediction of cycles repeating still

For this to happen it would mean Reapers would still exist somewhere meaning destroy is not 100% true as it just holds of this wave or a prediction of a new type of reaper being made by another race during a cycle.

 

That is so not what Destroy is about. Destroy is about that Synthetics again evolve to a point where they surpass Organics and rebel. The Catalyst doesn't talk about repeating the cycles again, but about the Synthetics/Organics conflict ("the chaos will come back").

[angol fear]

You open with an attack on me (Character defamation) yet call me childish?

Bravo lol.

 

I said " a childish answer"! Childish, adjective, and answer, noun. Where did you see that you were childish? It's the answer that is childish! Sorry but I shouldn't have to explain something like this!

 

 

The internet is accessable everywhere nowadays even from phones so you have the freedom to use it while at work FYI lol.

 

Ok, I never use my cellphone when I work.

 

 

Destroy = the cycle will continue again at some point

 

The game never said that the cycle continues. There are cycles because there are reapers.

 

 

What I expected from ME after playing ME1...

An epic battle against the reapers who are looking to invade in the future.

 

You should be glad because Mass Effect 3 is an epic battle against the reapers. Epic has a meaning that most people don't understand. Epic comes from the antic writing. Homer did epic work. And Odyseus stayed prisoner on an island without doing nothing. When Shepard realise at the end that he can't do nothing that "accept" what the A.I. offers to him, that's epic. Shepard has been fighting something that is beyond human scale. That's what epic is! It's not what the hollywood writing do.

 

 

Synthesis = permanent solution but goes against preserving life (plothole) as it creates a new DNA shared by all so that means human, quarian, turian etc etc etc all their DNA is now corrupted/changed thus no longer preserved.

 

So DNA = life? If DNA changes we're all dead? I don't think that it's what life means. Do you know how DNA works?

[Vazgen]

Why does it have to be nuke the planet to remove the tech? They would have 1000's of years until the next races rises to a sentient form so they would have plenty of time to search throughly and remove all tech.

Yes exactly the tech left behind just causes a repeat to the cycle and the actual issue is antagonized as the jump in tech encourages the production of high level synthetics which the conflict is born from and speeds up the time to harvesting which then cuts short the natural life cycle of those races.

And the Geth is one race of synthetics that had a war with their creators but never threatened organics on a whole. Hell if the quarians left them alone there would have been no further conflicts. Peace could have been achieved by just leaving them alone. They were not the galactic threat the catalyst spoke of.

Subserviant to the Leviathan yet couldnt follow commands or orders for peace? Or was it just the Leviathans didnt even think to issue such commands?

I mean think about it. If you just witnessed the near extinction of an entire galaxy (which the Leviathans needed to have seen to then draw the conclusions they did) why the hell would you then permit synthetics of such a high class to be in existence if your goal is preserving the organic races?

Could you explain that for me?

Because the technology is too widespread. Take Feros, for example. There is one huge Prothean city that covers 2/3 of the land mass. How do you suggest destroying/collecting all that tech?

Technology does not encourage creation of synthetics. It's merely a tool. The decision to create synthetics is the one organics make themselves. The Reaper and Prothean technology does not have blueprints for creating AIs.

 

How do you know? All I know is that the geth wiped out 99% of quarian population and are building a superstructure that is suspiciously similar to a Reaper.

 

The more strict the mind control is, the less capable the thrall becomes. That's an established fact in ME universe. The subservient races most likely required some autonomy to produce the tribute the Leviathans required.

 

The Leviathans did not witness near extinction. They witnessed their subservient races constantly creating synthetics and getting killed by them. They created an intelligence with a task to solve that issue. It tried different solutions. All of them failed, conflict had always arisen. So it deduced that the Leviathans too were a part of the problem. But it has a mandate to preserve organic life. So the solution was to harvest them. It was the intelligence that deduced that the conflict will eventually result in the loss of all organic life, not the Leviathans. And it bases its assumption on billion+ years of experience. 

[DSiKn355]

I said " a childish answer"! Childish, adjective, and answer, noun. Where did you see that you were childish? It's the answer that is childish! Sorry but I shouldn't have to explain something like this!

You either missed the point or you are intentionally ignoring it lol

Defamation of character was not saying childish, it was making the personal attack "you are 33..." lmao

Ok, I never use my cellphone when I work.

Thats what technology is there for

The game never said that the cycle continues. There are cycles because there are reapers.

Yes the chaos will continue my bad i have since been corrected

You should be glad because Mass Effect 3 is an epic battle against the reapers. Epic has a meaning that most people don't understand. Epic comes from the antic writing. Homer did epic work. And Odyseus stayed prisoner on an island without doing nothing. When Shepard realise at the end that he can't do nothing that "accept" what the A.I. offers to him, that's epic. Shepard has been fighting something that is beyond human scale. That's what epic is! It's not what the hollywood writing do.

Are you trying to tell me what my definition of an epic battle is?
Are you really trying to impose your beliefs on me?

So DNA = life? If DNA changes we're all dead? I don't think that it's what life means. Do you know how DNA works?

Please you tell me what the reapers were preserving of the humans when they liquidized them to put them into the baby reaper?

It was obviously not their form so the only thing of their life preserved is their DNA.

If Synthesis is done everyones DNA changes and becomes "a new DNA"

If you believe I am wrong please point out where I am wrong and what the reapers preserve of the races they harvest.

[themikefest]

But doesn't the e-mail only talk about discovering that the Keepers are made of the same bio...structure or something as Sovereign? And Chorban came to the conclusion that the Citadel actually wasn't built by Protheans, as assumed at this point, but by something else? Were the Crucible plans even mentioned in the e-mail?

The plans were not mentioned in the email. I only posted Chorban to establish that we knew about the keepers by doing his side mission. Of course that side mission is optional. In an ME3 default playthrough we learn nothing about the keepers and I don't believe they're mentioned at all in any dialogue.

 

Here's the email Chorban sends in ME2

Spoiler

From: Chorban

 

I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered... and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago... by the same people who made Sovereign!

 

You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to... something, some signal or something... about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.

 

Whoever did this... well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any of the old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.

 

Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me.

 

-Chorban

[fraggle]

 

The plans were not mentioned in the email. I only posted Chorban to establish that we knew about the keepers by doing his side mission. Of course that side mission is optional. In an ME3 default playthrough we learn nothing about the keepers and I don't believe they're mentioned at all in any dialogue.

 

Here's the email Chorban sends in ME2

Spoiler

From: Chorban

 

I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered... and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago... by the same people who made Sovereign!

 

You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to... something, some signal or something... about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.

 

Whoever did this... well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any of the old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.

 

Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me.

 

-Chorban

 

 

Ok, but I'm a bit lost here So you mean that the Keepers created the plans for the Crucible? Because they know the Citadel inside out and would then know how to "dock" it correctly? It's an interesting thought, but how would it work? I mean, sure, they maintain the Citadel and help species that discovered the Citadel settle in from what I know. You think the Keepers could somehow turn against their purpose of maintaining the Citadel to free themselves from the grasp of the Reapers by creating the plans? (from the wiki: "According to Vigil, the keepers were likely once a race that was either created, conquered, or indoctrinated by the Reapers, possibly even the first race they enslaved.")

But then why would the Catalyst lie about us not knowing them (we might not know much about them, but at least we've seen them and the Catalyst must know that), it seems truthful enough about everything else it says.

[themikefest]

 

But then why would the Catalyst lie about us not knowing them (we might not know much about them, but at least we've seen them and the Catalyst must know that), it seems truthful enough about everything else it says.

The catalyst didn't lie. 

 

ME3 is the game to start playing a trilogy. If the catalyst mentions the keepers, new people would not know about the keepers unless they played the previous games. 

[Vazgen]

The catalyst didn't lie. 

 

ME3 is the game to start playing a trilogy. If the catalyst mentions the keepers, new people would not know about the keepers unless they played the previous games. 

There are keepers in ME3. One of them patrols the docking bay. And they could have a cutscene showing the keepers, like they did for Extended Cut descriptions.

[fraggle]

There are keepers in ME3. One of them patrols the docking bay. And they could have a cutscene showing the keepers, like they did for Extended Cut descriptions.

 

Haha yeah, that little bugger always tried to push me away when I was listening to the 2 female NPCs at the side.

[themikefest]

There are keepers in ME3. One of them patrols the docking bay. And they could have a cutscene showing the keepers, like they did for Extended Cut descriptions.

Never said they weren't in ME3. Unless a new player doesn't read the codex about them, he/she would not know what they are or what they do. The codex just gives a brief description. ME1 is where the player learns about them and has some understanding of their purpose. Even Anderson in ME2 makes a comment about them when talking with Shepard

[angol fear]

Are you trying to tell me what my definition of an epic battle is?
Are you really trying to impose your beliefs on me?

 

I'm telling you that the word "epic" has a meaning and if you use it like I've seen people using it, then you are wrong. So be careful when you use it. I only gave you few elements for you to see if that's what you meant.

 

 

Please you tell me what the reapers were preserving of the humans when they liquidized them to put them into the baby reaper?

It was obviously not their form so the only thing of their life preserved is their DNA.

If Synthesis is done everyones DNA changes and becomes "a new DNA"

If you believe I am wrong please point out where I am wrong and what the reapers preserve of the races they harvest.

 

Mass Effect 2 answer is that it's the essence of species. At 4minutes:

 

You'll see that the revelation of the reapers being both organic and synthetic is explicit in Mass Effect 2 and you'll see that there a concept that is used : the essence. If the writers wanted to talk about DNA they would have used that word, I think.

[DSiKn355]

I'm telling you that the word "epic" has a meaning and if you use it like I've seen people using it, then you are wrong. So be careful when you use it. I only gave you few elements for you to see if that's what you meant.

 

 

 

Mass Effect 2 answer is that it's the essence of species. At 4minutes:

 

 

You'll see that the revelation of the reapers being both organic and synthetic is explicit in Mass Effect 2 and you'll see that there a concept that is used : the essence. If the writers wanted to talk about DNA they would have used that word, I think.

 

Your idea of Epic is different to mine

 

Here is the word Epic and it's definition from the English dictionary:

 

ep·ic

ˈepik/

noun

noun: epic; plural noun: epics

1. 1.

   a long poem, typically one derived from ancient oral tradition, narrating the deeds and adventures of heroic or legendary figures or the history of a nation.

   synonyms: heroic poem; More

   story, saga, legend, romance, chronicle, myth, fable, tale

   "the epics of Homer"

   • the genre of epic poems.

     "the romances display gentler emotions not found in Greek epic"
   • a long film, book, or other work portraying heroic deeds and adventures or covering an extended period of time.

     "a Hollywood biblical epic"

     synonyms: long film;

     informalblockbuster

     "a big Hollywood epic"

adjective

adjective: epic

1.

of, relating to, or characteristic of an epic or epics.

"England's national epic poem Beowulf"

synonyms: heroic, long, grand, monumental, Homeric, Miltonian

"a traditional epic poem"

 

your one idea of the word epic is not the only meaning or usage of the word and it was not the kind of Epic I expected or wanted after playing ME1.

 

You can argue the word epic all you like but it will not change the facts just like this is the definition of preservation:

 

preserve

 

[pri-zurv]

 

 

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

verb (used with object), preserved, preserving.

1.

to keep alive or in existence; make lasting:

to preserve our liberties as free citizens.

2.

to keep safe from harm or injury; protect or spare.

3.

to keep up; maintain:

to preserve historical monuments.

4.

to keep possession of; retain:

to preserve one's composure.

5.

to prepare (food or any perishable substance) so as to resist decomposition or fermentation.

6.

to prepare (fruit, vegetables, etc.) by cooking with sugar, pickling, canning, or the like.

7.

to maintain and reserve (game, fish, etc.) for continued survival or for private use, as in hunting or fishing.

verb (used without object), preserved, preserving.

8.

to preserve fruit, vegetables, etc.; make preserves.

9.

to maintain a preserve for game or fish, especially for sport.

noun

10.

something that preserves.

11.

that which is preserved.

12.

Usually, preserves. fruit, vegetables, etc., prepared by cooking with sugar.

13.

a place set apart for protection and propagation of game or fish, especially for sport.

 

So to melt someone down to their "essence" would not be "preserving"

 

Full Definition of ESSENCE

1

a :  the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being

 

b :  the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence <a painting that captures the essence of the land>

 

c :  the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is

2

:  something that exists :  entity

3

a (1) :  a volatile substance or constituent (as of perfume) (2) :  a constituent or derivative possessing the special qualities (as of a plant or drug) in concentrated form; also :  a preparation of such an essence or a synthetic substitute

 

b :  odor, perfume

4

:  one that possesses or exhibits a quality in abundance as if in concentrated form <she was the essence of punctuality>

5

:  the most significant element, quality, or aspect of a thing or person <the essence of the issue>

 

The writers used the word "Essence" but did they understand the meaning of the word just like their usage of preserve?

 

You can't preserve something and change it.

Just like you can't have the essence of something and it not be individual or have the properties of the said thing e.g male form and female form.

 

4:07 and again at 4:40

[angol fear]

Great! A basic dictionary, that's how you try to understand literature and philosophy. It's useless talking with you, I give up!

[DSiKn355]

Great! A basic dictionary, that's how you try to understand literature and philosophy. It's useless talking with you, I give up!

 

LMFAO

[angol fear]

LMFAO

33 years old and two children...

[Abelas Forever!]

Ah, I see, I forgot about that aspect. That would make sense of course, but then again I am really no supporter of Shepard being indoctrinated

ok Personally I like very much about the idea that Shepard is struggling against indoctrination because that is not what you would expect. That aspect also gives more personal meaning to the ending and there is also a possibility to break free from the indoctrination and I believe that nobody has done that before. While you might not defeat the reapers you would still accomplish something great.

 

 

Do you think maybe this could be Reaper-related? Maybe the Crucible doesn't allow reaperized beings to make one of the choices. And when it docked, assuming that the solutions were added with the Crucible, then he couldn't have used it because of the indoctrination.

It's possible that there is some kind of defense mechanism which prevents choosing from indoctrinated and it could also prevent choosing from AIs. The prothean VI in Thessia can identify indoctrinated people because it indentifies Kai Leng so it seems that Protheans were able to identify indoctrinated or at least they could build that AI so it is possible. Although Catalyst could always hack Crucible to allow choosing from indoctrinated or it could prevent choosing from Sheaprd. Unless of course the Crucible forces the AI to allow Shepard to decide and I think that leads back to the situation where people who were building Crucible did know about the AI and they could create that code in Crucible. Unless the leviathans helped in that but then again you can play the game without meeting them so that doesn't explain how that code was added to Crucible if it ever was there.

 

Ah, I thought about this thread here yesterday, and especially this post here: http://forum.bioware...ble/?p=18754376

The whole thread is interesting though

So the destroy tube and control tubes came from Crucible? I find it odd that people who are building Crucible would create so many different uses for it because creating them must take a lot of resources and I believe people who are building it don't have much time and resources. Of course people who are building it might not know about all of the ways to use that device and they could still try to build it and use it and expand it. That would explain why there is so many possibilities to use that thing.

 

I find it also weird that the Catalyst will present you the choices. Unless of course the Crucible will force it to do that. If that is not the case then it's sounds very suspicious because I don't trust that AI

 

 

Haha, that would've been funny, but I guess yes, it has to do with the "free will" thing again. Catalyst said that Synthesis can't be forced, so what would happen is that it would not work if Shepard is thrown in against his will? Maybe?

 

Yes. The free will is very important so that synthesis will work so it doesn't work if TIM would just throw Shepard into that synthesis beam. Because it's not explained at any way why that free will is important it sounds so weird. I mean I can understand the control. The device can separate your mind from your body because it's so advanced. I can undestand the destroy because Crucible is so powerfull that it destroys all synthetics because it has that effect. But what I think about the synthesis is that all you need is the body which can be used. Why you need somebody's mind and that person's free will? I mean. Does it matter what you think when you step into that that beam? Sounds very volatile.

 

Because we don't know anything about Crucible it's possible that it can do a lot of things. It has some code that forces the AI to help you, all those possible ways to use it will work because some brilliant minded people created them and this cycle was finally able to built it and you were the one who could finally use it. I like the ending because  it doesn't explain everything and that way it can be interpreted so many ways. I mean IT can be true or the ending can be seen as it is. Although I would want to know whether IT is true or not

[DSiKn355]

33 years old and two children...

 

Awwww boohoo, you gonna cry?

 

Need to try make it personal just because for all your talk of philosophy, literature and narration you cannot deny the simple logic of the mistake and misuse of the English language which then leads to broken logic and mistakes in storytelling?

 

You cannot change a word's meaning unless you write that the word means something else within the story... No such rule or lore was written.

 

 

I mean damn for the ending to even take place Shepard is sent to the Crucible in space which is open to space (not a sealed off or enclosed ship) and he/she miraculously doesn't float off into space or even suffocate!?

 

Brilliant how the logic is kept right? No break down at all right? Very valid ending, lord knows why people complain lmao.

[Torgette]

Awwww boohoo, you gonna cry?

Need to try make it personal just because for all your talk of philosophy, literature and narration you cannot deny the simple logic of the mistake and misuse of the English language which then leads to broken logic and mistakes in storytelling?

You cannot change a word's meaning unless you write that the word means something else within the story... No such rule or lore was written.



I mean damn for the ending to even take place Shepard is sent to the Crucible in space which is open to space (not a sealed off or enclosed ship) and he/she miraculously doesn't float off into space or even suffocate!?

Brilliant how the logic is kept right? No break down at all right? Very valid ending, lord knows why people complain lmao.

Here's a good one: Shep actually goes into a coma after being hit with a beam before reaching the conduit and everything after that is a dream. The hidden scene of her breathing was actually her waking up in the rubble of London, nobody actually defeated the reapers at the end of ME3. D:

[DSiKn355]

Here's a good one: Shep actually goes into a coma after being hit with a beam before reaching the conduit and everything after that is a dream. The hidden scene of her breathing was actually her waking up in the rubble of London, nobody actually defeated the reapers at the end of ME3. D:

 

Lololololololol

 

YES!!

 

Or even the entire war was won at that point without Shepard as all that was needed was Shepard to rally everyone together to destroy the Reapers so he could literally sleep out the rest of it lol.

 

Gosh the logic is so stupid for that ending to work.

 

The Catalyst had Billion+ years of study (apparently) to find different methods.

Would regularly build Reapers.

Yet never thought of building a Crucible or just stripping all advanced tech from the universe?

 

Their goal is "the preservation of life"... Well they didn't give a fuk when the Batarian planet was destroyed by THEIR mass relay which was hit by an asteroid which is hard to believe never ever happened to any other mass relay in the billion+ years they have been around and killed untold about of "Young lifeforms" lol.

[Torgette]

Lololololololol

YES!!

Or even the entire war was won at that point without Shepard as all that was needed was Shepard to rally everyone together to destroy the Reapers so he could literally sleep out the rest of it lol.

Gosh the logic is so stupid for that ending to work.

The Catalyst had Billion+ years of study (apparently) to find different methods.
Would regularly build Reapers.
Yet never thought of building a Crucible or just stripping all advanced tech from the universe?

Their goal is "the preservation of life"... Well they didn't give a fuk when the Batarian planet was destroyed by THEIR mass relay which was hit by an asteroid which is hard to believe never ever happened to any other mass relay in the billion+ years they have been around and killed untold about of "Young lifeforms" lol.

Hell, let's say the crucible gets converted into a wormhole bomb, and the Ark was built to carry all those workers and scientists who built the thing.