41 replies to this topic

[KaeserZen]

That's something that has always bugged me in Mass Effect 2...

 

Why didn't Sovereign use the Collectors over the Geth ? Has it been explained anywhere ?

 

I mean, why make use of outside agents to counteract a Prothean sabotage when you can use repurposed Protheans with a better understanding of Prothean culture ? We know that the Protheans have sufficient might and technology to conduct hit and run abduction raids on highly defended human colonies without attracting the attention of surrouding systems or the military. They have atmospheric capable cruiser/dreadnaught ships of the size of Sovereign who wouldn't need to expose himself.

 

And they were already known throughout the galaxy.

 

Now, I don't mind that Sovereign took the Geth as pawns, they were a pretty cool enemy in ME1, but I really wonder why he didn't take advantage of the thrall vanguard the Reapers already had in the Milky Way.

 

What are your thoughts on the topic ?

[Taki17]

Probably because the collectors weren't as numerous as the geth. Tthey were used only as a last resort when Sovereign failed to open the Citadel. Even then, they avoided open conflicts, paralyzed their abductees and made hit-and-run attacks. Plus, Sovereign states that the geth - being machines - are still easier to control than any indoctrinated creature, and their numbers could be replenished much more easier. Remember, Sovereign needed an expendable army to assault the Citadel, and my guess is that the collectorts did not have the numbers and too many would've perished and a Reapers would've lost an important asset.

[Vazgen]

1. The Collectors had one ship. One that can be taken out by a frigate (even without upgraded cannons). Not really a force to assault the Citadel with

2. Collectors don't have better understanding of the Protheans, just as husks don't have better understanding of humans. Regardless, their understanding is irrelevant, Sovereign wanted to do everything without intermediaries. 

[Ithurael]

Yeah...it seemed it just comes down to numbers. While the collectors had some great tech, they were more a spec ops force. The heretic geth seem to have a bit more gusto when it comes to assaulting the most secure place in the galaxy.

 

But no, it is never said in the trilogy why sovereign didn't just use them.

 

Personally, this is what happens when you don't fully plan out a trilogy with a branching narrative.

 

I will say this about the collectors though, they were perfect villains for the game they were in. ME2 just felt like a blackops mission. In a silly way I always thought the suicide mission was like the part of Predator where Ahhhnold and company just blow away a rebel base. IDK...that is just me being silly.

[Vazgen]

Makes sense with ME2 playing as a parody to a Schwarzenegger movie

[Laughing_Man]

Makes sense with ME2 playing as a parody to a Schwarzenegger movie

 

And than came ME3 and "made up" for it with forced angst and never ending boring dreams. I would take Schwarzenegger over this any day.

 

OP: I would guess that the collectors were simply there as "Plan B".

[nos_astra]

The trilogy was made up as they went. The simple explanation is that neither the Collectors nor the Catalyst existed when the plot around Sovereign was created.
Both are tacked on ... and ME is particularly bad at even attempting to reconcile previously established lore with new additions.
 
I'd say the Collectors didn't even work as antagonists in ME2 alone because their plan was never explained and made no sense. What's the point of making up convoluted reasons as to why these adversaries where super important that no one couldn't be bothered (neither Sovereign, nor the Reapers, nor the Council, nor the Alliance). At that point you can easily re-imagine the whole trilogy and get rid of the useless proxy evil dudes that were invented as an antagonist for Shepard's dirty dozen.

[Vazgen]

And than came ME3 and "made up" for it with forced angst and never ending boring dreams. I would take Schwarzenegger over this any day.

 

OP: I would guess that the collectors were simply there as "Plan B".

You would. I prefer playing more human characters. 

[Iakus]

The trilogy was mage up as they went. The simple explanation is that neither the Collectors nor the Catalyst existed when the plot around Sovereign was created.

Both are tacked on ... and ME is particularly bad at even attempting to reconcile previously established lore with new additions.

 

I'd say the Collectors didn't even work as antagonists in ME2 alone because their plan was never explained and made no sense. What's the point of making up convoluted reasons as to why these adversaries where super important that no one couldn't be bothered (neither Sovereign, nor the Reapers, nor the Council, nor the Alliance). At that point you can easily re-imagine the whole trilogy and get rid of the useless proxy evil dudes that were invented as an antagonist for Shepard's dirty dozen.

Yeah, they had no idea where tehy were going with the story.  And it shows.

 

I mean, some Collectors augmented with seeker swarms going through the Conduit would have ended the stroy right there.  Shepard would have stood there paralysed in the Presidium like an idiot as the dark space relay opened

[themikefest]

The collectors were under the control of Harbinger who had them do other stuff while Sovereign used the Geth and Saren 

[Iakus]

Now that I think about it, if Harbinger controlled the Collectors, why did the Reapers even need a vanguard?

[Vazgen]

Now that I think about it, if Harbinger controlled the Collectors, why did the Reapers even need a vanguard?

Can be a punishment for bad harvesting in the previous cycle

Other than that, the vanguard sends the signal to open the Citadel relay. The Collectors can't send it, probably because it needs to be distinctively Reaper signal, not something sent through intermediaries.

[KrrKs]

My guess is that the Collectors were also periodically used by Sovy to check for viable reaperization targets and the general state of the milky way. Harby only came in after Sovereign failed.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Yeah, they had no idea where tehy were going with the story. And it shows.

I mean, some Collectors augmented with seeker swarms going through the Conduit would have ended the story right there. Shepard would have stood there paralysed in the Presidium like an idiot as the dark space relay opened

Truth.

[ZerebusPrime]

Keeping the Collectors separate from the Reaper left to watch the galaxy in person allows for basic redundancy should one or the other be uncovered or be destroyed.  Moreover, the Reapers are incredibly particular about not leaving too much evidence of their involvement in the galaxy.  If the Collectors were fighting open wars it'd not take long for the galactic community to trace their DNA back to the Protheans.  Besides, how else could Sovereign masquerade as a Geth ship? 

[SagaX]

The reason was because developers had to create new elements on new games. On ME1 we had as main enemies Geths, on ME2 Collectors and on 3 had reapers(I mean Reaper faction small enemies, not the big ships themselves). ME4 will have a different new main enemy faction.
But its always fun to imagine reasons and logic

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Drew Karpyshyn hadn't thought of the Collectors when he wrote Mass Effect 1. It's that simple. They were making up the story as they went along. In ME2 they needed a big bad for Cerberus to fight.

[Ice Cold J]

Sort of a "lore-hole," but as some have said, Collectors weren't "invented" yet.

 

That being said, the Geth are arguably the greatest military force in the galaxy, with ground units rivaling the Krogan and a fllet whose size and scope would rival the Quarians and Turians.

[Reaper-Synthetic]

My guess is that the writers hadn't thought of the Collectors yet. 

 

And as far as I know ME2&3 had different writers than ME1 had, so I'd reckon the Collectors hadn't been thought up yet.

[Gago]

They are beyond our comprehension. Also BW invented them later. Or some totally other reason but I won't bet on it.

[Rosstoration]

The Collectors weren't as numerous or robust as the Geth. It's safe to assume the Collectors only had a single ship, since it is the only thing they came to the defense of their base in ME2, and it was also the ship abducting colonists. The collector ship would not have lasted long attacking the Citadel Fleet, the Collectors also, would not have lasted long fighting against the numerical superior, well armed and well armored forces on the Citadel.

 

The strength of the Collectors is dubious. In ME2, they restrict their operations to poorly defended back-water colonies, thus seeming a lot more powerful than they actually are (let's not touch on questionably canon forces depicted in ME3 multiplayer). Seekers can also be defeated with sufficient thermal and biotic power, as well as physical barriers, of which the Citadel has in abundance. Seekers are also not numerous enough to spread themselves effectively across the presidium and the wards.

 

The final point that can not be ignored is the "nation" aspect described of all Reapers, the extent to which Sovereign has any control in the duties of the Collectors, which seem to be directly under Harbinger's administration, is unknown. We know the Collectors are tasked with a purpose separate from Sovereigns. They seem to be intelligence gathering agents rather than soldiers and warriors, testing the species of the cycle to deduce which are worth harvesting, eventually they are tasked with creating the Human Reaper - a job far more important than Sovereigns, and for that purpose I doubt Harbinger would risk their destruction when other forces would suffice.

[Iakus]

But the Collectors could have been sent through the Conduit while the geth attacked.  And their seeker swarms are real game changers.  With those a few dozen geth can take over a colony of tens of thousands, no mater how well defended.  THey  could certainly have cleared and secured a path for Saren to the COuncil chambers.  ANd no one, not even Shepard, would have had a defense against it (as Mordin had not yet created his anti seeker tech)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Harbinger: Listen to me, Starbrat, Sovereign's been doing this for billions of years, and isn't this getting boring?

Starbrat: No.

Harby: Yes it is. Look, open the Citadel and Harvest the galaxy. Over and over and over again. We've been doing it for over a billion years. It's boring.

S: What do you suggest?

H: We'll use the Collectors.

S: How's that any different? Sovereign is trying to get here with Geth. It's perfect. Are you saying we assist him with Collectors?

H: No, let Sovvy fail. I'll have the Collectors start building a new reaper, a human reaper. They breed like cockroaches. And we'll send that reaper to open the Citadel.

S: But isn't that risky? What if someone stops the construction or blows up the Collectors?

H: That's the fun in it. The risk. Then we just blitz the galaxy. We don't need the Citadel anyway. It's only for the assured victory. This way we have a little sport about it. Give the organics a bit of a chance. What do you say?

S: Oh, alright.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Harbinger: Listen to me, Starbrat, Sovereign's been doing this for billions of years, and isn't this getting boring?
Starbrat: No.
Harby: Yes it is. Look, open the Citadel and Harvest the galaxy. Over and over and over again. We've been doing it for over a billion years. It's boring.
S: What do you suggest?
H: We'll use the Collectors.
S: How's that any different? Sovereign is trying to get here with Geth. It's perfect. Are you saying we assist him with Collectors?
H: No, let Sovvy fail. I'll have the Collectors start building a new reaper, a human reaper. They breed like cockroaches. And we'll send that reaper to open the Citadel.
S: But isn't that risky? What if someone stops the construction or blows up the Collectors?
H: That's the fun in it. The risk. Then we just blitz the galaxy. We don't need the Citadel anyway. It's only for the assured victory. This way we have a little sport about it. Give the organics a bit of a chance. What do you say?
S: Oh, alright.

Bingo. /thread.

[dgcatanisiri]

Sovereign used the geth because its intention was to get to the Citadel and open the relay to dark space, like they typically do each cycle. The Citadel is taken, the relay activated, the Reapers swarm into the galaxy and overwhelm local fleets. Their central government is taken immediately, likely causing fracturing of the remaining elements to, as they fight Reapers, also try and jockey for their own personal power. The geth were convenient tools for that goal, as they are a known threat within the galaxy, so if the geth are on the move, then the Citadel gets additional protection and, look at that, more of the space-faring species' fleets are right there at the Citadel when the Reapers swarm through.

 

The Collectors, meanwhile, were being used for the purposes of creating the new Reaper. This required a scalpel rather than a club - keep a low profile, go for the colonies on the Terminus, allow them to be considered just 'pirate raids' and such, and all the while, they're building a Reaper that can tear through ships and fleets like tissue paper. Particularly with the geth being blamed for the attack on the Citadel, the Reapers were a) dealing with the threat of humanity while still bolstering their numbers and able to maintain the illusion that Sovereign was an isolated incident and lulling the galaxy into a false sense of security.

 

Obviously, out-of-universe, it's because the Collectors were thought up as the antagonists for ME2, but explaining things from that perspective is boring.