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[GamerGalKat]

This is my first post. I'm hoping that someone might be able to help me here...

I'm setting up my Keep for my second playthrough's World State, and the major issue I'm coming across is being forced to choose an option that I absolutely KNOW I didn't make on my games. Now this is all in one playthrough, from the same save files that was imported and everything...

In Awakening, Nathaniel *is* alive and well. In fact, he and my BtoAmell (male mage Warden) are best friends. In DA2, my rogue FemHawke saves Yevhen's son, Merin, during the Fool's Gold quest. That's what happened/what I did in-game...
However, when I choose that option, the Keep forces me to change my choice from Nathaniel being alive to dead. Now I know this is not what happened in my games.

I *saved* Merin and Nathaniel *is* alive.

Is this some sort of bug, or coding error, or what? I'm very picky when it comes to my characters... they only help certain characters for a reason. It shows others who they really are as a person... I just want to keep true to them. I owe to them that much for going through all this chaos with them (as silly as that sounds). >.>

Can anyone provide aid or maybe an answer? Or did I post this in the wrong thing..?

[Aedral]

In this regard gamergal, there was a bug that if Nathanial was not in your end party in DA:O-A, then he is considered dead. When that happens it activates the merin side quest for DA2. Merin is officially only saveable if Nathaniel is dead. That's all there is to it.

[GamerGalKat]

That's sad... I wish there was some sort of fix around that. To keep both choices... :c

I shall ponder my choices then when I finally finish DA2. My characters are important to me.. It sounds silly, but it's the truth.
Thank you for your help! I'll still check here in case others here have more insight to share.

[Get Magna Carter]

this irritates me

Awakening said Nathaniel survived but in Dragon Age II I got the Yehven quest and not the Nathaniel quest

This was not in itself a problem - as Hawke didn't meet everyone who survived Awakening and the Yehven quest had no story link to Nathaniel being dead.

 

The problem is the keep not allowing me to accurately enter my playthrough.

 

If it had been a story contradiction (e.g. Nathaniel dying in Awakening and afterwards meeting Hawke) then that would be understandable but there is no contradiction here 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Finding Nathaniel is how your playthrough should have happened. So in a way it's more accurate than your playthrough.

[Get Magna Carter]

Finding Nathaniel is how your playthrough should have happened. So in a way it's more accurate than your playthrough.

that's an unusual usage of "accurate"

 

This is fiction with many combinations of decisions/events depending on the player.  That one combination was not intended by the designers did not mean that it did not "happen" in the game (and there is nowhere else that these events happen)

[Kantr]

that's an unusual usage of "accurate"

 

This is fiction with many combinations of decisions/events depending on the player.  That one combination was not intended by the designers did not mean that it did not "happen" in the game (and there is nowhere else that these events happen)

It happened because the game thought nathaniel was dead

[Get Magna Carter]

It happened because the game thought nathaniel was dead

which means the "game" was wrong when it thought that.

 

At the end of the day; it happened in the game, there is no contradiction caused by it happening.  Therefore, it should be allowed in the Keep.

[Kantr]

which means the "game" was wrong when it thought that.

 

At the end of the day; it happened in the game, there is no contradiction caused by it happening.  Therefore, it should be allowed in the Keep.

No, instead we should have had a choice between saving this guys sons, or saving nathaniel in the original game

[Get Magna Carter]

..and I maintain the keep should allow players to enter the decisions made in game (unless there is a story contradiction) and not expect players to enter outcomes of quests that they did not play

[Kantr]

Tough luck

[Ranadiel Marius]

which means the "game" was wrong when it thought that.

 

At the end of the day; it happened in the game, there is no contradiction caused by it happening.  Therefore, it should be allowed in the Keep.

 

The combination didn't happen in the game though. Nathaniel was dead in your DA2 playthrough, you just didn't know it. You never had a save where Nathaniel was alive and Merin was alive. You can completely recreate your save (Nathaniel dead, Merin saved) or you can correct the bug that was created by the DA2 importer. There is no reason why they should allow the creation of a world state that was impossible in game.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The fact that you got the quest to save Merin at all was a mistake. The Keep meant specifically to correct mistakes.

[Lucie_J24]

..and I maintain the keep should allow players to enter the decisions made in game (unless there is a story contradiction) and not expect players to enter outcomes of quests that they did not play

 

Unless, as you said, there is a "story contradiction".

Basically, the quest you played is a result of a bug. Should it be allowed in the Keep, it would most certainly result in a "story contradiction" if you take the whole Dragon Age universe.

It's actually the Keep purpose to avoid such bugs to occur in the first place, or at least to fix them (and the crappy import system of DA2). Congratulations, you did a quest that you were not supposed or be able to. But to ask that to be possible in the Keep is to go the complete opposite of what it is supposed to do...

[movieguyabw]

Think of it this way:  if Nathaniel survives, then Merin is never put in that situation in the first place.  That's the way it was supposed to be.

 

So if you save Nathaniel, you save Merin and his family.

[CENIC]

I think this is a case where the mutually exclusive tile shouldn't have appeared at all, so you don't have to feel bad about not helping someone you didn't even meet.

[Kantr]

You mean have the tiles not show due to a previous choice? Thats a hard thing to implement. Better the autosolver which tells you to save the kids nathaniel needs to be dead.

[Get Magna Carter]

Think of it this way:  if Nathaniel survives, then Merin is never put in that situation in the first place.  That's the way it was supposed to be.

 

So if you save Nathaniel, you save Merin and his family.

If there was a story explanation of why Merin was never in that situation then I would be more accepting as then (and only then) would it qualify as a story contradiction.

(By story contradiction I mean that I'm fine with Hawke not being allowed to encounter Nathaniel if Nathaniel died in Awakening as that would be a story contradiction as Hawke cannot meet dead people ...except for Anders ... and Leiliana ....and...)

As it is - it seems to be purely down to "plot flags" rather than events in Thedas so not a story contradiction so no reason to disallow the option

[Kantr]

If there was a story explanation of why Merin was never in that situation then I would be more accepting as then (and only then) would it qualify as a story contradiction.

(By story contradiction I mean that I'm fine with Hawke not being allowed to encounter Nathaniel if Nathaniel died in Awakening as that would be a story contradiction as Hawke cannot meet dead people ...except for Anders ... and Leiliana ....and...)

As it is - it seems to be purely down to "plot flags" rather than events in Thedas so not a story contradiction so no reason to disallow the option

The reason is that Bioware wanted to give a deep roads quest to people who killed him. Story reason: Merrins sons dont go into the deep roads if he lives

[Get Magna Carter]

The reason is that Bioware wanted to give a deep roads quest to people who killed him. Story reason: Merrins sons dont go into the deep roads if he lives

Story reasons require a coherent link between cause and effect.

Merrin's sons wondering about going into the deep roads but deciding not to because Nathaniel is still alive does not, by itself, make any coherent sense 

[Lucie_J24]

Story reasons require a coherent link between cause and effect.

Merrin's sons wondering about going into the deep roads but deciding not to because Nathaniel is still alive does not, by itself, make any coherent sense 

 

Why ? You can't imagine it ? You can't fill the blanks ? You need the game to tell you everything that happens ?

What if, the choices being in the Keep, Bioware plan to make something of it in a futur DA game ?

In the Keep, Nathaniel is alive, so you never encountered Merin and his brothers. And then, in this future game, you meet them and they tell you all about when Nathaniel saved them in the roads, just before Hawke saw him in DA2. It makes sense, no ?

 

Beyond that, the fact is that having both is a bug. I think the amount of choice we have in the whole serie is admirable. And it demands a lot of work for the developpers. Why would they add to that what is the result of a BUG ? A bug you had because the import of DA2 was awful. Which is basically why they made the Keep. Do you see the logic there ?

 

And if storywise, you really really need for it to make sense IN DA2, well use your imagination !

[Get Magna Carter]

Why ? You can't imagine it ? You can't fill the blanks ? You need the game to tell you everything that happens ?

What if, the choices being in the Keep, Bioware plan to make something of it in a futur DA game ?

In the Keep, Nathaniel is alive, so you never encountered Merin and his brothers. And then, in this future game, you meet them and they tell you all about when Nathaniel saved them in the roads, just before Hawke saw him in DA2. It makes sense, no ?

 

Beyond that, the fact is that having both is a bug. I think the amount of choice we have in the whole serie is admirable. And it demands a lot of work for the developpers. Why would they add to that what is the result of a BUG ? A bug you had because the import of DA2 was awful. Which is basically why they made the Keep. Do you see the logic there ?

 

And if storywise, you really really need for it to make sense IN DA2, well use your imagination !

I can imagine lots of stuff - BUT what I imagine is just head-canon - it should not dictate the options available in the keep

 

The options in the keep should reflect what happened in the game

unless

1) the combination is only available through the player interfering with gameplay (hacks, cheats, mods) - so mage Hawke and Bethany reaching Kirkwall alive should not be available, nor should a player who did the Merin family quest be allowed to also have Hawke save Nathanial as its impossible to do both without cheating

or 2) it contradicts the Lore of the game ..i.e. the details of story/world as defined in the game ... nothing that you or I may choose to imagine which is not reflected in the game constitutes lore (nor does any behind the scenes plot-flags not seen by the player during the game - they are game mechanics not lore)

[movieguyabw]

Well, https://www.youtube....h?v=0nNoyFM1TSg - that was the intended reason I believe.  Merin was supposed to be with Nathaniel's crew in the Deep Roads when you met him.  I know this scene is considered to be cut; however I heard Merin is in the background in one of the scenes during Nathaniel's mission.  I'm not 100% on that, because I've never actually *played* Nathaniel's mission.  But even so, it's a reason as to why he'd be safe.

[Lucie_J24]

I can imagine lots of stuff - BUT what I imagine is just head-canon - it should not dictate the options available in the keep

 

The options in the keep should reflect what happened in the game

unless

1) the combination is only available through the player interfering with gameplay (hacks, cheats, mods) - so mage Hawke and Bethany reaching Kirkwall alive should not be available, nor should a player who did the Merin family quest be allowed to also have Hawke save Nathanial as its impossible to do both without cheating

or 2) it contradicts the Lore of the game ..i.e. the details of story/world as defined in the game ... nothing that you or I may choose to imagine which is not reflected in the game constitutes lore (nor does any behind the scenes plot-flags not seen by the player during the game - they are game mechanics not lore)

 

 

Well I believe that what you want is a bit of BOTH reasons it shouldn't be allowed in the Keep.

 

1) It may not be the player directly interfering in the Keep but it's a bug. By definition it's an anomaly. As you said you can't do both. There is a reason for that (and apparently that's what you are desperatly looking for...).

2) The reason is linked to the lore of the game. It is not because it's not explained that it isn't lore...Basically if Nathaniel is alive at the end of DAA, you get his quest. If he is dead, you get Yehven's. That is both the lore and the games mechanics.

 

So not to repeat myself (even if I feel like I do...) but the fact is what you got wasn't supposed to be possible ! It's actually exactly the same as if you are a mage Hawke and that Bethany survives instead of Carver. In DA-verse it's not a possible outcome. But it doesn't mean that you can't tweak the game to do it.

Here you didn't tweak the game. Because the horrendous DA2 import system screwed it up for you.

[Get Magna Carter]

end of the day .. I have OCD tendencies and so would like what I have in the Keep to EXACTLY reflect what happened in my game

 

I do not see any reason why this should be a problem as

1) I got it through playing normally without any cheat or mod

2) there is no story contradiction in what happened

3) the writers can simply say Nathanial died off-screen in Dragon Age II if not met by Hawke (or something) so allowing the Merin quest as an alternative to the Nathanial quest (regardless of whether Nathanial survived awakening or not) doesn't really create any significant problems for them