44 réponses à ce sujet

[Kantr]

The whole story only happens if nathaniel is dead or vice versa. The keep exists for valid worldstates. Which yours is not.

[movieguyabw]

If you're going to argue that we should be able to have the Keep reflect 100% everything that happened in the game even if it was due to a glitch; then I submit that there should be an option to say you romanced both Morrigan and Leliana simultaneously.

Also, given that my journal said my Amell warden met someone I only could have met in the Dwarven noble origin story, and had an Aeducan son (was a common glitch with Origins) this should be represented as well in the Keep.

Look, I get where you're coming from. It took me a while to decide which outcome to choose with the whole Merin/Nathaniel thing too. Hell, I actually just changed the decision in my canon state after already having played through Inquisition with it. It's hard to decide when you've only ever seen what happens when its glitched.

But you're suggesting that they change the Keep options to reflect a glitched outcome, solely because it happened in your game. Again, I'm sure we can all make a list of glitches that have occurred in our games that contradict the Keep. I don't see why they should change the Keep options to reflect those, however. They weren't intended.

[unclee]

end of the day .. I have OCD tendencies and so would like what I have in the Keep to EXACTLY reflect what happened in my game

 

I do not see any reason why this should be a problem as

1) I got it through playing normally without any cheat or mod

2) there is no story contradiction in what happened

3) the writers can simply say Nathanial died off-screen in Dragon Age II if not met by Hawke (or something) so allowing the Merin quest as an alternative to the Nathanial quest (regardless of whether Nathanial survived awakening or not) doesn't really create any significant problems for them 

 

No, you didn't get it by playing normally. You got it because the import glitched and imported the wrong state for a character. You didn't use any cheats or mods, yes, but a glitch still caused what you got in-game.

[Get Magna Carter]

No, you didn't get it by playing normally. You got it because the import glitched and imported the wrong state for a character. You didn't use any cheats or mods, yes, but a glitch still caused what you got in-game.

so you are saying playing Dragon Age II with an imported save is not playing it normally?

I disagree.  I say I did play it normally and any abnormalities in my play through were NOT down to what I did.

 

If a player uses cheats or mods they are deliberately breaking the storyline by their own choice and they are responsible for doing so.

 

What happened to me was not my choice - it was the result of a coding error by Bioware - which makes it Bioware's fault/responsibility.

Players are NOT responsible for the coding errors of developers no matter what you may say to the contrary

[Lucie_J24]

so you are saying playing Dragon Age II with an imported save is not playing it normally?

I disagree.  I say I did play it normally and any abnormalities in my play through were NOT down to what I did.

 

If a player uses cheats or mods they are deliberately breaking the storyline by their own choice and they are responsible for doing so.

 

What happened to me was not my choice - it was the result of a coding error by Bioware - which makes it Bioware's fault/responsibility.

Players are NOT responsible for the coding errors of developers no matter what you may say to the contrary

 

No what you don't understand is that all you are arguing about is your save importation. THAT is the problem here.

 

You are right in saying that you played the game normally. But what you want is not only about DA2. It's about the link between DAO (or DAA) and DA2.

And that's where the game screwed up. And that's not unusual. The save importation system of DA2 is known for being shitty.

But the fact is, DA2 didn't read your save correctly and that's why you were able to do the quest. To the game, Nathaniel was dead. To you, he wasn't.

 

Yes what happened was because of Bioware's mess. Yes it is their responsibility.

No, it is certainly NOT their responsibility to incorporate the results of a glitch in the Keep. Especially if you consider that it's not the same teams at all.

Programming is hard, glitchy as hell and sometimes bugs occur. Ask programmers. 

We could argue that even afterwards they didn't seem to care about it either but this is a forum to help people or give reasonable feedback, not to keep making outrageous demands (even after being explained that it wouldn't happen and why) and debate about QA...

If it is such a hardship for you, sue Bioware. A judge will tell you if it really was their responsibility. But frankly you need to consider your priorities. Yes it may be 'inconvenient' for your head-canon playthrough, but it's not a life or death matter...

 

Bottom line, it won't happen. You can rant all you want but it won't change anything.

[Get Magna Carter]

It is not an "outrageous demand" but a reasonable request

It should not cause any significant hardship for the writers

it does not require adding any more decisions or options to the tapestry.

So it should be no trouble

So the question is "Why not?"

 

and the answers so far do not give a good reason and can be summarised with the word "because"

 

 

 

 

I would stop posting on the thread but I feel a need to respond to all the nonsensical rants that have been added.

[Kantr]

It is not an "outrageous demand" but a reasonable request

It should not cause any significant hardship for the writers

it does not require adding any more decisions or options to the tapestry.

So it should be no trouble

So the question is "Why not?"

 

and the answers so far do not give a good reason and can be summarised with the word "because"

 

 

 

 

I would stop posting on the thread but I feel a need to respond to all the nonsensical rants that have been added.

Because it's not a valid option. The quest only happens with dead nathaniel. The game thought he was dead and thats what counts

[Lucie_J24]

It is not an "outrageous demand" but a reasonable request

It should not cause any significant hardship for the writers

it does not require adding any more decisions or options to the tapestry.

So it should be no trouble

So the question is "Why not?"

 

and the answers so far do not give a good reason and can be summarised with the word "because"

 

 

 

 

I would stop posting on the thread but I feel a need to respond to all the nonsensical rants that have been added.

It is not a reasonable request since it goes against everything the Keep stands for.

 

For now it doesn't change anything. But what about the future ? Something that you need to keep in mind is that the Keep team has nothing to do with the writers of the games. So they can 'choose' what decisions to put in the Keep, but they can certainly not put something that is not in the story or against it !

 

So we didn't answer 'because'.

We tried to explain to you that is the way the writers want the story (and it's a very logical way).

And it is not the only quest like that. In DA2 there is a lot of quests conditionned by certain events in DAO (and DAA). If there is no 'incompatibility', should we change the outcome there too ?

 

In the end, it's not even a Keep request here ! You are asking the writers of the franchise to reconsider a quest possibility because : it happened to you when it was not supposed to ; there is no explained incompatibility between them.

About the first : well, THAT is why the Keep was created.

About the second : as I said fill the blanks.

 

And it is very ironic of you to say that we are the ones with the 'nonsensical rants'.

You are the nonsensical one, since you can't seem to understand that THE RESULT OF A BUG IS NOT A VALID OPTION !

 

(Kantr summarized that very well. I'm ranting a bit).

[Get Magna Carter]

Because it's not a valid option. The quest only happens with dead nathaniel. The game thought he was dead and thats what counts

i.e. "because"

[Get Magna Carter]

It is not a reasonable request since it goes against everything the Keep stands for.

 

For now it doesn't change anything. But what about the future ? Something that you need to keep in mind is that the Keep team has nothing to do with the writers of the games. So they can 'choose' what decisions to put in the Keep, but they can certainly not put something that is not in the story or against it !

 

So we didn't answer 'because'.

We tried to explain to you that is the way the writers want the story (and it's a very logical way).

And it is not the only quest like that. In DA2 there is a lot of quests conditionned by certain events in DAO (and DAA). If there is no 'incompatibility', should we change the outcome there too ?

 

In the end, it's not even a Keep request here ! You are asking the writers of the franchise to reconsider a quest possibility because : it happened to you when it was not supposed to ; there is no explained incompatibility between them.

About the first : well, THAT is why the Keep was created.

About the second : as I said fill the blanks.

 

And it is very ironic of you to say that we are the ones with the 'nonsensical rants'.

You are the nonsensical one, since you can't seem to understand that THE RESULT OF A BUG IS NOT A VALID OPTION !

 

(Kantr summarized that very well. I'm ranting a bit).

You said that an individual player's head canon should dictate the options in the keep

you said the writers were too incompetent to handle the situation

I disagreed with both

 

One reason the keep was created because of console generations and the difficulty transferring saves between them - not relevant to this conversation except the big question as to why the keep was created.

and it also SHOULD prevent problems in future imports from bugs into Inquisition onwards

SO your assertion that it's sole purpose is to retcon player's earlier gameplays is untrue

 

There are many possibilities that are available from decisions throughout the game.

The possibility that Hawke could have done the Merrin quest with Nathanial alive and possibly dying offscreen in DA2 is so close to the possibilities that are available that I cannot conceive it causing any difficulty whatever

 

I'm not ranting, I'm just talking normally but you persist in refusing to listen to reason and complaining about a possible problem that would never exist

[Lucie_J24]

You said that an individual player's head canon should dictate the options in the keep

you said the writers were too incompetent to handle the situation

I disagreed with both

 

I never said that.

If I say that something is not black, do you automatically assume it's white ? 

 

 

One reason the keep was created because of console generations and the difficulty transferring saves between them - not relevant to this conversation except the big question as to why the keep was created.

and it also SHOULD prevent problems in future imports from bugs into Inquisition onwards

SO your assertion that it's sole purpose is to retcon player's earlier gameplays is untrue

 

The difficulty of transferring saves IS the purpose of this conversation, since what you want is precisely the result of it.

As you said the Keep was created to 'smooth' the transfer accross different consoles generation and to avoid the catastrophe that was DA2.

Which is directly the reason of this topic. If your save had transferred correctly, we wouldn't have this conversation.

 

There are many possibilities that are available from decisions throughout the game.

The possibility that Hawke could have done the Merrin quest with Nathanial alive and possibly dying offscreen in DA2 is so close to the possibilities that are available that I cannot conceive it causing any difficulty whatever

 

I'm not ranting, I'm just talking normally but you persist in refusing to listen to reason and complaining about a possible problem that would never exist

 

I'm not saying there is a problem. There is no problem at all. I actually said that there was not obvious incompatibilites between the two.

What I'm saying is that :

First, all this decision is the matter of the writer of the games. They are the one who choose which quest is possible, the outcomes, etc. It has nothing to do with the Keep. The Keep job is to retranscript these possible outcomes. Yours is not story-wise.

Second, while what you are saying is possible (doing the quest with Nathaniel alive), it could create inconsistencies with the future games. We don't know what the writers have planned.

 

And I think there is 'sort of' an explanation as to why you can't do both quest. Apparently Merin was supposed to have a larger role and ultimatly join the Wardens. Go check the Dragon Age Wiki.

[Get Magna Carter]

I never said that.

If I say that something is not black, do you automatically assume it's white ? 

 

 

 

The difficulty of transferring saves IS the purpose of this conversation, since what you want is precisely the result of it.

As you said the Keep was created to 'smooth' the transfer accross different consoles generation and to avoid the catastrophe that was DA2.

Which is directly the reason of this topic. If your save had transferred correctly, we wouldn't have this conversation.

 

 

I'm not saying there is a problem. There is no problem at all. I actually said that there was not obvious incompatibilites between the two.

What I'm saying is that :

First, all this decision is the matter of the writer of the games. They are the one who choose which quest is possible, the outcomes, etc. It has nothing to do with the Keep. The Keep job is to retranscript these possible outcomes. Yours is not story-wise.

Second, while what you are saying is possible (doing the quest with Nathaniel alive), it could create inconsistencies with the future games. We don't know what the writers have planned.

 

And I think there is 'sort of' an explanation as to why you can't do both quest. Apparently Merin was supposed to have a larger role and ultimatly join the Wardens. Go check the Dragon Age Wiki.

I assumed you were trying to make a point.  If you were not or had just strayed from the point of the discussion so far as to be meaningless, then I apologise.

 

What happened to me should not have happened plot-flag-wise but there was no story reason for it to not happen so it was possible storywise

 

Ultimately this boils down to 3 in-game moments/decisions

1) Did the Warden recruit Nathaniel

2) Was Vigil Keep fully strengthened ready for the darkspawn attack?

3) Did Hawke do the Merin quest?

It was possible for any 1 or 2 of the 3 to be done in the game and so have to be allowed for by writers already.

Allowing all 3, which was not intended by the writers but still happened due to Bioware's mistake, should not create too much problem.

The only conceivable problem would be if there was a problem with the consequences of Merin's quest being completed and Nathaniel still being alive which could easily be resolved by ruling that if Hawke did not meet Nathaniel then Nathaniel died during DA II.  Problem solved.

I have every faith in the writer's ability to handle that despite the doubts you have about their abiiities.

 

and as for Kantr's last post (I generally don't directly discuss with Kantr because I don't like hitting my head on a brick wall) if the only problem is that it has been defined as an "invalid option" then if Bioware redefined it to be a valid option (which is all I am asking for) then that disagreement would cease to be a problem..

[Lucie_J24]

I assumed you were trying to make a point.  If you were not or had just strayed from the point of the discussion so far as to be meaningless, then I apologise.

 

Is there an insult there somewhere ? I wonder...

 

What happened to me should not have happened plot-flag-wise but there was no story reason for it to not happen so it was possible storywise

 

Ultimately this boils down to 3 in-game moments/decisions

1) Did the Warden recruit Nathaniel

2) Was Vigil Keep fully strengthened ready for the darkspawn attack?

3) Did Hawke do the Merin quest?

It was possible for any 1 or 2 of the 3 to be done in the game and so have to be allowed for by writers already.

Allowing all 3, which was not intended by the writers but still happened due to Bioware's mistake, should not create too much problem.

The only conceivable problem would be if there was a problem with the consequences of Merin's quest being completed and Nathaniel still being alive which could easily be resolved by ruling that if Hawke did not meet Nathaniel then Nathaniel died during DA II.  Problem solved.

I have every faith in the writer's ability to handle that despite the doubts you have about their abiiities.

 

and as for Kantr's last post (I generally don't directly discuss with Kantr because I don't like hitting my head on a brick wall) if the only problem is that it has been defined as an "invalid option" then if Bioware redefined it to be a valid option (which is all I am asking for) then that disagreement would cease to be a problem..

 

I understand your frustration. I understand that you would like your head-canon playthrough to be legitimate.

I'm not saying that what you are asking is impossible to implement. I'm saying that there is 'almost' absolutely no chance for it to be implemented.

First, because frankly this is not the place to ask that. As I keep repeating, the Keep merely retranscript the possible outcomes. The decision to make them possible outcomes depends of the writers of the games. And those are not the same teams. Yes, you can suggest the choice here. But then the Keep team will ask the writers that will then answer. The fact that, despite not being the first time this subject was mentioned, no bioware employee ever answered (I think) is telling...

Secondly, because while there may not be anything planned concerning either Nathaniel or Merin, the two quests are mutually exclusive, and admitting them to not be could, I believe, greatly reduce the potential for any follow up.

 

Ultimately, we go back to the fact that the Keep job is to be able to import world states, free of any bug or glitches.

So yes, what you want would be possible story-wise. But it was never planned as such.

The Keep does its job. Asking to change this decision because "there is no legitimate reason that this is not possible", when the possibility is the reason the Keep exists, is a bit redundant, don't you think ? Especially if you consider that if they allow it for this choice, they should allow it for all choices which are similar and aren't conflicting in the story. It would be a gigantic mess.

 

So yes, maybe the reason is really 'because'.

But the truth is, just as a parent will say 'because' to a child and never give a reason, Bioware will not give a reason.

Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't.

[Kantr]

i.e. "because"

I deliberately did that.

 

I assumed you were trying to make a point.  If you were not or had just strayed from the point of the discussion so far as to be meaningless, then I apologise.

 

What happened to me should not have happened plot-flag-wise but there was no story reason for it to not happen so it was possible storywise

 

Ultimately this boils down to 3 in-game moments/decisions

1) Did the Warden recruit Nathaniel

2) Was Vigil Keep fully strengthened ready for the darkspawn attack?

3) Did Hawke do the Merin quest?

It was possible for any 1 or 2 of the 3 to be done in the game and so have to be allowed for by writers already.

Allowing all 3, which was not intended by the writers but still happened due to Bioware's mistake, should not create too much problem.

The only conceivable problem would be if there was a problem with the consequences of Merin's quest being completed and Nathaniel still being alive which could easily be resolved by ruling that if Hawke did not meet Nathaniel then Nathaniel died during DA II.  Problem solved.

I have every faith in the writer's ability to handle that despite the doubts you have about their abiiities.

 

and as for Kantr's last post (I generally don't directly discuss with Kantr because I don't like hitting my head on a brick wall) if the only problem is that it has been defined as an "invalid option" then if Bioware redefined it to be a valid option (which is all I am asking for) then that disagreement would cease to be a problem..

Whether or not it's a forced decision doesn't matter.

 

Bioware won't re-define it as they never intended for it to happen, it's a mistake with the import process. If it's made valid then what about the quest you get from his sister. Perhaps Bioware should have given you the option to choose, but then that would mean favouring "Nathaniel Alive" over "Nathaniel Dead"

 

Why stop with making that option valid, there are plenty of other glitches and console hacks? The keep would become a mess then.

[Get Magna Carter]

Is there an insult there somewhere ? I wonder...

 

 

I understand your frustration. I understand that you would like your head-canon playthrough to be legitimate.

I'm not saying that what you are asking is impossible to implement. I'm saying that there is 'almost' absolutely no chance for it to be implemented.

First, because frankly this is not the place to ask that. As I keep repeating, the Keep merely retranscript the possible outcomes. The decision to make them possible outcomes depends of the writers of the games. And those are not the same teams. Yes, you can suggest the choice here. But then the Keep team will ask the writers that will then answer. The fact that, despite not being the first time this subject was mentioned, no bioware employee ever answered (I think) is telling...

Secondly, because while there may not be anything planned concerning either Nathaniel or Merin, the two quests are mutually exclusive, and admitting them to not be could, I believe, greatly reduce the potential for any follow up.

 

Ultimately, we go back to the fact that the Keep job is to be able to import world states, free of any bug or glitches.

So yes, what you want would be possible story-wise. But it was never planned as such.

The Keep does its job. Asking to change this decision because "there is no legitimate reason that this is not possible", when the possibility is the reason the Keep exists, is a bit redundant, don't you think ? Especially if you consider that if they allow it for this choice, they should allow it for all choices which are similar and aren't conflicting in the story. It would be a gigantic mess.

 

So yes, maybe the reason is really 'because'.

But the truth is, just as a parent will say 'because' to a child and never give a reason, Bioware will not give a reason.

Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't.

not "head canon" - that's what people make up -the only place in the vault for such things are the ones with a pen symbol (name,background) for players to edit.

 

I would like the events in my playthrough to be stored and available to be passed on to future games.

Which is the whole purpose of the vault (and all methods of transferring story data between games)

forcibly retconning player's vault states to not reflect the events of the game is contrary to the vault's purpose.

If Bioware wanted to disregard and retcon the events in player's game playthroughs they wouldn't need the vault to do so.

 

This is the feedback and suggestions board and thus an appropriate place to make suggestions.

Sure, Bioware may ignore it and do nothing (as they have on many other matters) but that should not prevent suggestions from being made

[Kantr]

It's not intended to happen which is why it's the way it is. If you could do the quest with nathaniel alive then it would be saying so.

[Get Magna Carter]

It's not intended to happen which is why it's the way it is. If you could do the quest with nathaniel alive then it would be saying so.

The question is "Was the developer's intent that the Merrin quest was not compatible with Nathaniel being alive or was it that players got one (and only one) of 2 quests in the deep roads with the Nathaniel one not occurring if he was dead (as that would be a story contradiction)?"

and, of course, only Bioware can answer that question.

 

There is nothing in the Merrin quest to say that they are only going down to the deep roads because Nathaniel died in Vigil Keep so no story contradiction getting that quest INSTEAD of the Nathaniel quest. 

[SofaJockey]

which means the "game" was wrong when it thought that.

 

At the end of the day; it happened in the game, there is no contradiction caused by it happening.  Therefore, it should be allowed in the Keep.

 

No.

The purpose of the Keep is to channel world state data for future games.

It is not possible to have met the dwarves and Nathaniel as there is only one further Deep Roads mission.

 

If you saved one of the dwarves then Nathaniel died after DAA even if it did not happen on your watch.

 

(Though in practice I would be surprised if we ever see those dwarves or Nathaniel again in any game.)

[Get Magna Carter]

No.

The purpose of the Keep is to channel world state data for future games.

It is not possible to have met the dwarves and Nathaniel as there is only one further Deep Roads mission.

 

If you saved one of the dwarves then Nathaniel died after DAA even if it did not happen on your watch.

 

(Though in practice I would be surprised if we ever see those dwarves or Nathaniel again in any game.)

I have stated that I am happy with only getting one of the quests and with Nathaniel dying after the events of Awakening - so you are not actually disagreeing with me 

[Ranadiel Marius]

I would like the events in my playthrough to be stored and available to be passed on to future games.

The events as they happened in your game are available. Nathaniel was dead in your save. If you load up an Awakening save in the final dungeon, the game will tell you as such in his codex entry. DA2 recognizes this and gives the appropriate quest. The epilogue is the only thing that disagrees, and well that can say Anders is dead....so we know how canon that is.