138 réponses à ce sujet

[B.A. Broska]

There's a lot of information about the topic available to you. If someone wants to educate you, that's cool, but why take up someone else's time when you could just Google the topic?

 

Because Google does not exactly enlighten me on why transgender people feel the way that they do, sure it will give me the definition of transgender but the all important question of what factors lead to a transgender person questioning their gender identity, what does it mean to be a man or a woman if not the genitals and physiology you were born with?

 

At best my understanding from what I have read is that it is the values and roles assigned to gender by society or people who are a big part of the transgender person's life that cause them to question their gender identity, but without being transgender myself I can't say with certainty that this is true. But if this is true then where does Krem fit into all this? As we all know outside of the Qun (though was that later retconned?) gender roles don't really exist in Thedas and outside of the Tevinter nobility nobody really cares about homosexuality. Krem would not have had to dress up as a man to earn the respect of the chargers(because the people of Thedas are much more progressive in that regard) nor would she have any cause to feel uncomfortable about being attracted to the same gender (if she is indeed attracted to the same gender) because there is no stigma surrounding homosexuality.

 

Perhaps I am missing the point by a large margin but that is why I was hoping somebody could give me a better perspective on things

[daveliam]

Because Google does not exactly enlighten me on why transgender people feel the way that they do, sure it will give me the definition of transgender but the all important question of what factors lead to a transgender person questioning their gender identity, what does it mean to be a man or a woman if not the genitals and physiology you were born with?

 

At best my understanding from what I have read is that it is the values and roles assigned to gender by society or people who are a big part of the transgender person's life that cause them to question their gender identity, but without being transgender myself I can't say with certainty that this is true. But if this is true then where does Krem fit into all this? As we all know outside of the Qun (though was that later retconned?) gender roles don't really exist in Thedas and outside of the Tevinter nobility nobody really cares about homosexuality. Krem would not have had to dress up as a man to earn the respect of the chargers(because the people of Thedas are much more progressive in that regard) nor would she have any cause to feel uncomfortable about being attracted to the same gender (if she is indeed attracted to the same gender) because there is no stigma surrounding homosexuality.

 

Perhaps I am missing the point by a large margin but that is why I was hoping somebody could give me a better perspective on things

 

This post is long, but if you are interested in learning more, perhaps it is helpful?

 

I think you are confusing sexual orientation, biological sex, and gender.  Try thinking of it this way (and know that this is a kind of simplistic way, but I hope it is helpful):

 

Biological sex - Genetically, are you male or female (XX or XY)?  Or, as you put it, "What do you have between your legs?"

Sexual Orientation - Who are you attracted to?  Do you find men attractive?  Women?  Both?  Neither?

Gender - Do you see yourself as a male or female (not biologically, but how do you identify)?  How do you feel?

 

If we think of each of them as a continuum (which it's not really, but it helps illustrate it), then every person falls somewhere along the continuum for each one.  That is, it's three different continua.

 

So, if you are the 'typical' (cisgendered, which is a term that I don't really like) straight guy, you would be biologically a male (XY).  You would identify as a male and always would have.  As a little boy, you'd always have known you were a boy.  And you'd be attracted to women. 

 

In my case, I'm biologically a male (XY).  I identify as a male and always has.  As a little boy, I always knew I was a boy.  But I'm attracted solely to other men.

 

Krem would be biologically a female (XX), but would identify as a male and always would have.  As a little boy, he knew he was a boy.  We're not sure who he's attracted to:   could be males, females, or both (sounds like he might be either straight or bisexual from what other posters are saying based on banter). 

 

Think of it this way?  If you are a male (I'm assuming here), have you ever thought of yourself as a female?  When you were a kid and they said, "Boys in one line and girls in the other", did you question which line you should be in?  Or did you ever know that you really should be in the girls line, but weren't sure why you were considered a boy?  As a teenager, did you start to hate your body because it was developing into the 'wrong' sex for your identity?  Those are the kinds of things that a transperson might have experienced.  From my understanding, it's not about gender roles as much as gender identity.  It's about your outside fundamentally not matching your inside. 

 

I don't know what it's like to be trans, because I'm not.  I have a few trans friends, but I've never really discussed that aspect of their lives.  They are just friends of mine and I don't treat their gender (transmen, like Krem) any differently than I do any of my other guy friends.  They're just guys who I'm friends with.  If they were closer friends, maybe I'd bring it up.  Or maybe they'd bring it up.  Who knows.  So I can only speak to what I've heard and seen from other people's perspectives.  There are actually a bunch of trans posters on the BSN.  I'm sure some of them have lurked in this thread already.  Maybe one of them can offer their firsthand perspective.

[sillymonkboy]

Because Google does not exactly enlighten me on why transgender people feel the way that they do, sure it will give me the definition of transgender but the all important question of what factors lead to a transgender person questioning their gender identity, what does it mean to be a man or a woman if not the genitals and physiology you were born with?

Re: What makes a Trans person feel the way that they do: (current scientific hypothesis; TLDR version)

 All humans embryos start out as biologially female.  At ~ 8 weeks, a series of hormonal washes - dependant primarily on your chromosonal composition, e.g., XX, XY, XXX, XXY, XXXX, XXYY, XXYYY, Mosaic, etc, but also some other factors - trigger changes throughout the body (including the brain).  If these hormonal washes do not proceed in exactly a certain way in certain amounts at a certain time, the embryo will not be definitively XX - hetero female, or XY - hetero male.  Generally, it's "close enough", but not always.  Since these changes are body-wide, they also effect brain development, and thus self-awareness and thought.  This can lead to, for example, possessing "male" genitalia with a "female" brain, among a wide variety of states. It's not a mistake or error. It is perhaps uncommon, but still perfectly within the expected parameters of human development, much like having a particular combination of hue, shade, tint and tone makes your exact skin, hair or eye color.

This is a vast, vast, over-simplification just for the sake of helping you begin to understand the basic mechanisms behind "why".  The intersection of physiology, psychology and sexuality is an immense ocean and this is but a drop.  Even discovering a small fraction of it is an exhaustive swim.  Good luck.

[B.A. Broska]

Gender - Do you see yourself as a male or female (not biologically, but how do you identify)?  How do you feel?

 

This is the part I am trying to address, what is it about transgender people that makes them identify more with the opposite sex, what defines being a man or a woman to these people and what is it about themselves that they feel does not match the definition of the gender they were born with? A word only has the value we assign it and it would seem the words "male" and "female" have been assigned more value or a totally different definition than a person's biological makeup.

[daveliam]

This is the part I am trying to address, what is it about transgender people that makes them identify more with the opposite sex, what defines being a man or a woman to these people and what is it about themselves that they feel does not match the definition of the gender they were born with? A word only has the value we assign it and it would seem the words "male" and "female" have been assigned more value or a totally different definition than a person's biological makeup.

 

Well, let me flip that back on you.  Why do you identify with the gender that you do?  What is it about that word that you identify with? 

[Texhnolyze101]

You get the Masterwork Archon Staff from "Track Spies in Vyrantium", one of a series of wartable quests from the Qunari, which are said to have a dramatic impact on Qunari society if you succeed with the quests.

 

What exactly is the dramatic impact?

[B.A. Broska]

Well, let me flip that back on you.  Why do you identify with the gender that you do?  What is it about that word that you identify with? 

 

Well I have a penis so I guess that make me male, I have not really assigned much more importance to the word than that.

[sillymonkboy]

A word only has the value we assign it and it would seem the words "male" and "female" have been assigned more value or a totally different definition than a person's biological makeup.

One of the hallmarks of animal intelligence is pattern recognition. In humans, this is highly developed even extending to abstract concepts. To facilitate rapid identification of patterns, we label them. To communicate them to others, we communally agree on the parameters and limits of these labels. The problem is that labels work best for specific, rigid, fixed things. Human existence is none of those things. So labels only work well for human things in broad, general terms. Example: I say "penis". You get a basic idea, but no understanding of length, thickness, color, turgidity, bends/angles, texture, veins, circumcised, etc.

"Male" and "Female" are just as limited.

[daveliam]

Well I have a penis so I guess that make me male, I have not really assigned much more importance to the word than that.

 

So if you were in a tragic accident tomorrow and your penis were severed, you would start identifying as a woman?  Serious question. 

[Texhnolyze101]

So if you were in a tragic accident tomorrow and your penis were severed, you would start identifying as a woman?  Serious question. 

 

You made me spit soda on my laptop screen lol.

[Killdren88]

That staff is too good for me to spare the chargers sooo yeah..Plus I have this thing where I try to collect all the schematics.

[B.A. Broska]

So if you were in a tragic accident tomorrow and your penis were severed, you would start identifying as a woman?  Serious question. 

 

You know what I mean, I was born with a Y chromosome and my biological makeup is that of a male so I identify as a male. If for some reason my penis were cut off tomorrow it would not change the fact that I was born a man and still have most of the biological characteristics of a man, I would not all of a sudden grow ovaries and a uterus just because my penis was removed.

[Walrider]

You know what I mean, I was born with a Y chromosome and my biological makeup is that of a male so I identify as a male. If for some reason my penis were cut off tomorrow it would not change the fact that I was born a man and still have most of the biological characteristics of a man, I would not all of a sudden grow ovaries and a uterus just because my penis was removed.

 

Then that makes the presence of genitalia a moot point in terms of gender. You said that you look between your legs, see a penis, and thus identify as male. Which is completely fine.

 

But the lack of - sudden lack or not - a penis does not suddenly make you female. If someone is born already feeling like their body doesn't suit their gender identity, than their well within their rights to say, "Hey, I'm a woman," when born XY or, "Hey, I'm a man," when born XX. It can be difficult to understand things when you never personally experience them, and that's fine too. But at the end of the day, what a person identifies as has no real bearing on your life.

It matters that you're trying to understand, but it also matters that you understand that it's something you may never will, so long as you don't treat someone who is trans as less than someone who isn't. People are people. There are good people and bad people. What pronoun they go by will not change that.

[daveliam]

You know what I mean, I was born with a Y chromosome and my biological makeup is that of a male so I identify as a male. If for some reason my penis were cut off tomorrow it would not change the fact that I was born a man and still have most of the biological characteristics of a man, I would not all of a sudden grow ovaries and a uterus just because my penis was removed.

 

But why do you identify as a male?  Why did you accept that you were a boy?  Can you explain why?  When you were a little kid, you didn't know that you had a Y chromosome, but you still thought of yourself as a boy.  Why?

 

My point is this:  Gender =/= biological sex.  You keep talking about biological sex (reproductive organs, secondary sex characteristics).  That's not the same as gender.  Your gender happens to match your biological sex.  That happens in over 99% of people.  But for the others, it doesn't.  And the fact that transgender people know this from an early age (prior to understanding biological sex, gender norms, etc.), indicates that this is a not a biological concept.  It's a psychological one.  There's actually a fairly large amount of research out there on this, if you are interested.

 

It would be like, when you were a kid, if everyone had called you a girl all the time.  And you said, but I'm actually a boy.  And everyone else said, nope you're a girl.  It would be confusing because you would know that you are a boy.  That's what it's like.

 

You might not ever be able to understand what they feel like.  Or ever truly 'get it', but that doesn't mean that it's not a real thing.  Does that make sense?

[drummerchick]

You know what I mean, I was born with a Y chromosome and my biological makeup is that of a male so I identify as a male. If for some reason my penis were cut off tomorrow it would not change the fact that I was born a man and still have most of the biological characteristics of a man, I would not all of a sudden grow ovaries and a uterus just because my penis was removed.

That's because your brain is wired to match your dangly bits. If your dangly bits were cut off, it would not change your brain's wiring.  Transgendered folk's brains are cross-wired from the get go, so their bits do not match up to how they feel.

Sillymonkboy explained it a bit more eloquently above.

[Cervin]

...and this "discussion" belongs here, in a gaming forum..about DA:I? Silly ppl...

[LostInReverie19]

The only thing bad about Krem is the writing where you learn he is a "he". The conversation really doesn't seem to allude to him being born as a female but living as a man. He makes some comment about Bull's pillowy man bosoms and then you get to ask about his gender... what?

 

Dunno if anyone else responded to you, but the reason we get to ask about his gender identity is because he mentions that he could give IB tips on binding, i.e. binding breasts. 

 

To be more on topic, gender is a social construct. Like others have said it may or may not match your biological sex. Gender and biological sex do not equal the same thing. For example, I am a cisgender woman, but I identify more with so-called masculine qualities over feminine ones as society defines them. The key here is society. Society defines expectations for each gender. Some people feel that their biological parts do not match the gender they feel themselves to be. 

[sillymonkboy]

...and this "discussion" belongs here, in a gaming forum..about DA:I? Silly ppl...

This "discussion" stems from and is relevant to a player asking other players to help him understand the nature, drives and motivation of a character in that game. You could make an argument asking this to be moved to the Story, Campaign & Characters sub-forum, but it does contain spoilers, so this is an equally appropriate place for it.

[Cervin]

nah this discussion belong in off-topic forum tbh. just read the last posts on this page. nothing about the game itself as far as I see.. Sure the OP was asking a game oriented question but it´s now about trans gender etcetc..

[BackdoorPaco]

nah this discussion belong in off-topic forum tbh. just read the last posts on this page. nothing about the game itself as far as I see.. Sure the OP was asking a game oriented question but it´s now about trans gender etcetc..

Meh, this is how every thread turns out anyway. It won't get moved/locked until someone gets their feelings hurt.

[BigEvil]

Not really. Unless you count roleplaying as gameplay... which you could, I guess.

 

Roleplaying, in an RPG? What crazy things will people come up with next.

[daveliam]

Why are people 'concern policing' this thread?  There's a conversation happening that is not at all heated.  It's directly related to a character in the game, specifically coming from a question about that character.  Not seeing the big issue here......

[Giantdeathrobot]

nah this discussion belong in off-topic forum tbh. just read the last posts on this page. nothing about the game itself as far as I see.. Sure the OP was asking a game oriented question but it´s now about trans gender etcetc..

 

No one's forcing you to read the thread, you know. 

[Texhnolyze101]

Why are people 'concern policing' this thread?  There's a conversation happening that is not at all heated.  It's directly related to a character in the game, specifically coming from a question about that character.  Not seeing the big issue here......

 

Because people on BSN are soft and have easily hurt feelings.

[calvinien]

Does saving the chargers get you anything from a gameplay perspective?

It feels like the right thing to do. The qun is evil so losing their support is not something I really miss. And bull is clearly not cut out to stay in the qun, he all but admits it.