22 réponses à ce sujet

[Andrew Waples]

If there is a grey warden dlc and it involves the aspects of the calling. Wouldn't I don't know be a bad idea. I guess what gives a grey wardens power to permently kill an arch demon could be same reason that grey warden's hear "music" when it is time to go to the deep roads. Do we know what controls the "music"?

[Vuko]

Curing the Calling is probably equivalent of removing Blight from Grey Wardens' blood, which would indeed make him unable to kill Archdemon.

However Calling simply indicates that taint is about to overcome warden, so its choice between honorable death and turning into darkspawn. Either way killing Archdemon wont be possible.

 

"Music" is whole different concept, only things capable of "singing" are both types of Lyrium and the Blight. All three can be used as source of power, have different properties and seems to be sentient to some extent. Other than that we have no idea what's the cause or how to control "music". I didn't read "the Calling" though there may be some answers there.

[Kantr]

You wouldn't cure Grey Wardens during a blight.

[Koneko Koji]

As far as I'm aware, the calling is the song of the darkspawn hive mind which is caused by the calls of the archdemon.

To cure this would be interesting and bring its own set of problems - we know from previous lore exposition that many of the wardens are conscripted criminals etc who are in a way, similar to the Legion of the Dead in that they are given an ultimately fatal last chance to redeem themselves.

 

If this cure was available to all Wardens, it could potentially wipe out the order (are people really going to fight as hard and as recklessly if there is a way out?).
However, the upper echelons could decide to keep the information to themselves and offer it to those who are experiencing the calling as a choice - go out in glory, or be cured.

But this then opens up more problems - especially for the dwarves. If no more Wardens are going down to the Deep Roads to go out with a bang, they are solely reliant on their own forces and will eventually be overwhelmed (this will happen eventually due to the declining birth rate with the dwarves).

 

So if all these issues were brought up, juggled and handled well - then, yes - I'd love to see this as a  DLC

[TK514]

The Calling is the point at which the taint in the Grey Warden's blood has progressed to almost the ghoul stage.

 

A Warden's choices are either sit around and become a mindless, dangerous husk or go out fighting.

 

Curing the Calling would have zero impact on the Order's ability to kill Archdemons, because individuals would still have to go through the Joining.  All it would do is give Wardens who are nearing the end of their shortened lifespan a way to get the normal lifespan back, and remain productive, useful members of the Order.  Or retire, if that's what they want to do.  They would no longer have to sacrifice themselves to a violent death in order to avoid becoming a blight controlled husk of their former selves.

 

Imagine if experienced, verteran Wardens no longer had to throw their lives away, and could instead take up roles as trainers and administrators of the Order.  They could pass on their years of accumulated experience to more than just one or two additional batches of recruits.  They could give the Order more continuity with regards to outside negotiations.  The Order could become even more effective in their roles as a defense against Blights because they wouldn't be constantly hemmoraging their best and brightest.

 

And, in a pinch, they'd have a defense against the sort of thing Corypheus tried to pull.

[Koneko Koji]

The Calling is the point at which the taint in the Grey Warden's blood has progressed to almost the ghoul stage.

 

A Warden's choices are either sit around and become a mindless, dangerous husk or go out fighting.

 

Curing the Calling would have zero impact on the Order's ability to kill Archdemons, because individuals would still have to go through the Joining.  All it would do is give Wardens who are nearing the end of their shortened lifespan a way to get the normal lifespan back, and remain productive, useful members of the Order.  Or retire, if that's what they want to do.  They would no longer have to sacrifice themselves to a violent death in order to avoid becoming a blight controlled husk of their former selves.

 

The Calling is caused by the taint in the blood taking over and turning the Warden into a ghoul - so to cure this, the taint would need to be removed, which means the Wardens could then NOT slay an archdemon because the Old God's soul is drawn out of the body and into the nearest tainted one when killed.

[TK514]

The Calling is caused by the taint in the blood taking over and turning the Warden into a ghoul - so to cure this, the taint would need to be removed, which means the Wardens could then NOT slay an archdemon because the Old God's soul is drawn out of the body and into the nearest tainted one when killed.

 

No, only the Wardens who were actually experiencing their Calling would be cured.  Plenty of 'Not Yet Hearing the Calling' Wardens would be around the slay the Archdemon.

 

If they were just going to cure the Taint, then they don't need some big quest, they just stop doing the Joining ritual.

[Koneko Koji]

Although I do wonder with the Wardens whether they're hiding some serious stuff like the Seekers with the tranquility and the templars with lyrium - because the first blight was ended by Wardens ... yet we're told that the joining requires a drop of arch demon blood ... so the original wardens, where and HOW did they come into existence if they were fighting the first arch demon?

I'm honestly starting to consider that something is up (especially since the guys in Weishaupt are all secretive and what not) - and that the joining is the same as a lyrium leash for a templar; because seriously - if the archdemon follows the taint into the body, then surely anyone infected could slay the demon.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Presumably they managed to kill the archdemon a few times before Wardens appeared. Then the archdemon just reformed leaving behind a dead body full of its blood. Or they injured it in battle getting blood from an open wound.

Hard to say as to whether anyone infected could do it. It may require a certain degree of taint for the archdemon to perceive you as a viable host. If not, then you would still need to get the tainted person to the archdemon which would be hard since most of the time you can tell that non-grey wardens are infected only when they start keeling over like Aveline's husband.

[Koneko Koji]

Hmm it is something to think upon, but it depends on the level of blight infection - the Dalish Warden is infected by the eluvian in Origins and manages to get all the way to Ostagar and to the joining without issue.

From what's been said, the soul of the archdemon goes to the nearest tainted individual - regardless of taint level. Otherwise Morrigan's dark ritual would be useless (brand new life with a speck of taint) or she would have gone for Riordan who'd been a warden longer if stronger taint was required.

 

I also wonder why they're called Grey Wardens - and wonder if the original group were indeed infected with the blight and transforming into ghouls - which turns the skin grey.

 

The first archdemon was killed before and then rose again, so it is possible that they got their hands on its blood there - but who on Thedas told them to consume its blood?!

[Eliastion]

The OGB wasn't even tainted, really - the taint tends to spread, after all, and GW children, though rare, are perfectly healthy from what we know... It seems that it being fathered by a GW was a component that allowed Morrigan to cheat Archdemon's "homing sense" so that it would end up in the baby. Despite there actually being tainted beings closer - it's the Warden that strikes the killing blow if the Ritual has been performed.

[Vuko]

Curing the Calling would have zero impact on the Order's ability to kill Archdemons, because individuals would still have to go through the Joining.  All it would do is give Wardens who are nearing the end of their shortened lifespan a way to get the normal lifespan back, and remain productive, useful members of the Order.  Or retire, if that's what they want to do.  They would no longer have to sacrifice themselves to a violent death in order to avoid becoming a blight controlled husk of their former selves.

 

I disagree, Grey Wardens are defined by their sacrifice. This was emphasized in book more than in game. I believe that inevitability of death is what drives wardens, it's where their tenacity and effectiveness come from. Perspective of retirement would be devastating for morale, if warden fate isn't final, how many would be willing to die for the cause? Besides those who got rid of Blight from their blood wouldn't be able to fight Darkspawn, im not talking about killing Archdemon. Joining ritual gives warden immunity, without it single scratch is enough to turn one into a Darspawn.

 

For example look at Grand Enchanter Fiona, i mean she used to be a Grey Warden. She got cured of Blight though, even though she wanted to stay in the Order, she was unable to go though another Joining. Other wardens felt cheated which turned into animosity and she was forced to leave in the end.

 

 

I also wonder why they're called Grey Wardens - and wonder if the original group were indeed infected with the blight and transforming into ghouls - which turns the skin grey.

 

The first archdemon was killed before and then rose again, so it is possible that they got their hands on its blood there - but who on Thedas told them to consume its blood?!

 

Name Night's Watch was already taken 

Given the time - supremacy of Tevinter Imperium, blood magic was probably widely practiced and blood consumption especially dragon's isn't unheard of even in more recent times, king Calenhad, reavers, im sure we could find more. Lore point this out very often, there's power in blood, it's logical first Grey Wardens turned to it.

[Caddius]

I disagree, Grey Wardens are defined by their sacrifice. This was emphasized in book more than in game. I believe that inevitability of death is what drives wardens, it's where their tenacity and effectiveness come from. Perspective of retirement would be devastating for morale, if warden fate isn't final, how many would be willing to die for the cause? Besides those who got rid of Blight from their blood wouldn't be able to fight Darkspawn, im not talking about killing Archdemon. Joining ritual gives warden immunity, without it single scratch is enough to turn one into a Darspawn.

 

For example look at Grand Enchanter Fiona, i mean she used to be a Grey Warden. She got cured of Blight though, even though she wanted to stay in the Order, she was unable to go though another Joining. Other wardens felt cheated which turned into animosity and she was forced to leave in the end.

 

 

 

Name Night's Watch was already taken 

Given the time - supremacy of Tevinter Imperium, blood magic was probably widely practiced and blood consumption especially dragon's isn't unheard of even in more recent times, king Calenhad, reavers, im sure we could find more. Lore point this out very often, there's power in blood, it's logical first Grey Wardens turned to it.

I think many Wardens would still be willing to die slaying the Archdemon if they knew they could be cured of the Calling. Same way people in real life are willing to sacrifice their life when they're not about to die of some malignant disease.

Fiona was ostracized because the rest of them just had to look forward to dying of the Calling in a non-Blight. (Jokes on them. )

Nakiri, a Warden from the Donarks, suggested drinking darkspawn blood, as his people drank the blood of their enemies to gain their power. Tevinter Magisters added their knowledge, as did elves with their knowledge from Arlathan. This created the first Joining Ritual.

In older sources, I saw it claimed that the first Joining was after Dumat's death, when the followers of the Wardens, who all died in the Battle of the Silent Plains, took up their mantle. This doesn't particularly make much sense, though.

And yeah, they would only be familiar with the Archdemon's ability to body-hop because, after managing to slay Dumat, he showed up again somewhere else. Presumably they slew him many times. Why would Dumat not risk himself? Grey Wardens weren't around before.

[Ash Wind]

You wouldn't cure Grey Wardens during a blight.

Indeed, in fact, you might have more recruits become Grey Wardens during a blight since becoming one wouldn't be an automatic death sentence.

[Andrew Waples]

Indeed, in fact, you might have more recruits become Grey Wardens during a blight since becoming one wouldn't be an automatic death sentence.

well you'd still have to go through the joining process...

[Eliastion]

Indeed, in fact, you might have more recruits become Grey Wardens during a blight since becoming one wouldn't be an automatic death sentence.

The main problem is not the Calling but the mortality rate of recruits. Many don't live through Joining.

Also, neither Calling nor dangers of Joining are necessarily common knowledge. Some people outside the order do know to an extent, but I got the impression that they're relatively rare and far between.

[Koneko Koji]

The main problem is not the Calling but the mortality rate of recruits. Many don't live through Joining.

Also, neither Calling nor dangers of Joining are necessarily common knowledge. Some people outside the order do know to an extent, but I got the impression that they're relatively rare and far between.

 

We know from Origins that the details of the Joining are kept secret so that the recruits don't freak out and try to back out (like Ser Jory), but I don't think the Calling is such a closely guarded secret, it's probably not 'common' knowledge to all, but for example - the dwarves in Orzammar - are certainly familiar with it.

[Ash Wind]

well you'd still have to go through the joining process...

To a certain point, that is certainly a valid point, no doubt. But in-game Joinings don't seem to make it the devious, 50/50 proposition that is implied.

 

DAO

The Warden: Survives

Daveth: Dies

Jory: Disqualified because he is killed refusing

 

DAA

Mhairi (sp?): Dies

Sigrun:  Survivies

Velanna:  Survives

Nathan Howe: Survives

Anders:  Survivies

Oghren:  Survives.... and hilariously states, "not bad."

 

That's a ratio of 6:2 survival rate.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Joining ritual gives warden immunity, without it single scratch is enough to turn one into a Darspawn.

 

For example look at Grand Enchanter Fiona, i mean she used to be a Grey Warden. She got cured of Blight though, even though she wanted to stay in the Order, she was unable to go though another Joining. Other wardens felt cheated which turned into animosity and she was forced to leave in the end.

I was under the impression that Fiona's experiences were evidence against your idea that cured Wardens are less effective, since the fact that she wasn't able to successfully retake the Joining implied that she no longer had to worry about becoming a ghoul instead of now needing to worry about it even more. She wouldn't have been able to kill an Archdemon if she ran into one, and she could no longer sense darkspawn, but she now has the power to sneak up on darkspawn (if she leaves the other Wardens behind for a bit) and to live a full life training the next generation or two of Wardens. I really have no idea why the Wardens thought a resource like that was worth parting with, jealousy or not.

[Eliastion]

To a certain point, that is certainly a valid point, no doubt. But in-game Joinings don't seem to make it the devious, 50/50 proposition that is implied.

 

DAO

The Warden: Survives

Daveth: Dies

Jory: Disqualified because he is killed refusing

 

DAA

Mhairi (sp?): Dies

Sigrun:  Survivies

Velanna:  Survives

Nathan Howe: Survives

Anders:  Survivies

Oghren:  Survives.... and hilariously states, "not bad."

 

That's a ratio of 6:2 survival rate.

Yeah, they've kinda driven themselvves into corner by allowing Joining for lots of more or less "important" characters Players would be furious to see dying that way... It could be helped (though not in a very elegant way) by introducing some nameless dying-in-joining wardens, but as it is, I must admit that the lore and what we see don't match all too well...

 

(and you even missed Loghain from DA:O, surviving too)

[Vuko]

That's not how statistics and probability works i'm afraid. There's nothing wrong with survivability ratio of the Joining or it's depiction in game.

 

 

I was under the impression that Fiona's experiences were evidence against your idea that cured Wardens are less effective, since the fact that she wasn't able to successfully retake the Joining implied that she no longer had to worry about becoming a ghoul instead of now needing to worry about it even more. She wouldn't have been able to kill an Archdemon if she ran into one, and she could no longer sense darkspawn, but she now has the power to sneak up on darkspawn (if she leaves the other Wardens behind for a bit) and to live a full life training the next generation or two of Wardens. I really have no idea why the Wardens thought a resource like that was worth parting with, jealousy or not.

 

I can see Your point but we don't know if inability to partake another Joining was caused by immunity to the corruption or something else. It does seem weird for Wardens to throw away such resource. After all Fiona was one of the most talented mages in the Order, met sentient darkspawn and survived the Calling. Her insight should be invaluable, yet she was expelled nevertheless. Maybe she was simply harmful for morale, maybe it was something bigger, we have no way of knowing. But hey, we are talking Grey Wardens here, the "experts" on the Blight, guess they know what they're doing.

[Eliastion]

A couple additional things about Joining - I don't know all their sources, but wiki page suggests a couple things:
- few survive (so our companions would need to be the select "lucky" few)
- it's not just luck; only those deemed to have a relatively good chance of survival are taken as recruits and...
- it's to some extent psychological: being driven enough raises your chances while doubt decreases them

If probability of success is grounded in individual's conviction and willpower, that would make for a good reason why the major characters, taking the Joining willingly, tend to pass the ritual and live despite average survivability not being too good.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I can see Your point but we don't know if inability to partake another Joining was caused by immunity to the corruption or something else. It does seem weird for Wardens to throw away such resource. After all Fiona was one of the most talented mages in the Order, met sentient darkspawn and survived the Calling. Her insight should be invaluable, yet she was expelled nevertheless. Maybe she was simply harmful for morale, maybe it was something bigger, we have no way of knowing. But hey, we are talking Grey Wardens here, the "experts" on the Blight, guess they know what they're doing.

My understanding is that she simply No-Sold it when they tried it. That almost certainly means immunity to the Taint.