824 réponses à ce sujet

[LOLandStuff]

Oh Lob, you and your talent at derailing any thread just so you can talk about your Dalish and headcanon.

[Ryriena]

Yeah having a surge of magic in their children would not make sense, as magic is an genetic trait, so if a trait is dying in the bread it becomes no more. Thus their couldn't really be a surge in the bread. I paid to much attention in science class, when I was in school.

[Heidirs]

Yeah having a surge of magic in their children would not make sense, as magic is an genetic trait, so if a trait is dying in the bread it becomes no more. Thus their couldn't really be a surge in the bread. I paid to much attention in science class, when I was in school.

 

Genetics don't always work like they are supposed to. Though, yes, it would be unlikely.

[Ryriena]

Genetics don't always work like they are supposed to.

Mutations can be extremely rare usually can be environmenal reasons, to breeding said mutations.

[Iakus]

Vivienne did everything in her power to escape the trappings of the Circle, she doesn't really prove anything when it comes to circle life.

 

Sure it does.

 

She was able to escape the trappings of the Circle.  And quite easily, given how she described it.  She didn't even seem to think she was unique in that, which is telling, giving her ego.

[Sarielle]

But yeah that because she had a noble backing her and thus was given more leeway ie The Game.

 

She does tell us that most Circles allowed mages to live off the grounds with approval from the First Enchanter of said Circle. Now that seems odd based on what happened in Origins, but it's not impossible that the Warden's Circle (if mage origin chose) was also one of the stricter ones.

 

She displays knowledge of Kirkwall's treatment, she'd be likely to know other First Enchanters' views on allowing mages to live off campus, so to speak.

 

 

Talking to her, it seems she enjoyed the Circle life (well, except for the Harrowing) even before joining the Orlesian court.

 

She does, but to be fair, probably anything seemed a step up after going hungry the way she did as a child (Cole banter).
 

[Iakus]

Mutations can be extremely rare usually can be environmenal reasons, to breeding said mutations.

Genetics in a fantasy setting don't really work as tehy should in RL.

 

I mean, elf=human=human, after all.

 

And drinking dragon blood does all sorts of wierd stuff to people it seems.

 

Who knows how "can bend forces of reality to your will" shows up in DNA

[Iakus]

 

She does, but to be fair, probably anything seemed a step up after going hungry the way she did as a child (Cole banter).
 

True.  Wynne's story is similar.  And Sera's banter indicates she's known apostate mages who seemed better off in the Circle.

 

But still, life in the Circle seems no more monolithic than life among the Dalish.  Everyone's experience is different.  Each clan/Circle is different.  Everyone's hopes and expectations are different.

[Barquiel]

Sure it does.
 
She was able to escape the trappings of the Circle.  And quite easily, given how she described it.  She didn't even seem to think she was unique in that, which is telling, giving her ego.

But we know she is in a rather unique position. The average mage wasn't even allowed to leave the circle for an outing into the city after Lambert took command of the templars. In Asunder, Rhys calls Wynne out on this when she lectures the other mages on circles...that she doesn't know what the average mage has to deal with. Same applies to Vivienne, perhaps even more so considering that Wynne at least lives in a circle from time to time.

[Vilegrim]

Vivienne gets a lot of hate because she has opinions that are unpopular with a lot of the fanbase. She is pro-Chantry and supports the Circle system, which has a lot of the mage fanboys/fangirls conditioned to hate her from the start. Personally I'm glad she wasn't yet another rebel mage. Between Morrigan and Anders we already had enough of those. Another unforgivable sin for many is that she doesn't worship at the altar of all things Inquisitor. If she thinks your character is a dunce who is running the Inquisition improperly, she'll tell you so. I see that as a positive trait, but some fans get irritated when companion characters break from telling the protagonist how awesome or special he or she is.

 

 

 

 

Part of it is that Morrigan is an LI. The other reason for Morrigan catching less flak is that her opinions are more popular with the fanbase. She is an apostate that mocks the Chantry and the Circle system. That plays into some fans real world opinions on religion or authority.

 

 

I don't like being able to actually argue with her, she tends to make statements about people and we can't tell say a thing back (her assertions about the Dalish to a Palish character spring to mind. )

[Iakus]

Based on conversations with Vivienne, the Circle at Monstimmard let pretty much any mage in good standing go as long as the First Enchanter approved it.  Her position in the royal court may have been unique, but being able to live outside the Circle was not.

 

Perhaps that changed after Anders blew up the Kirkwall chantry (which was when Lambert took over), or perhaps White Spire was different in that way.  E

[daveliam]

But we know she is in a rather unique position. The average mage wasn't even allowed to leave the circle for an outing into the city after Lambert took command of the templars. In Asunder, Rhys calls Wynne out on this when she lectures the other mages on circles...that she doesn't know what the average mage has to deal with. Same applies to Vivienne, perhaps even more so considering that Wynne at least lives in a circle from time to time.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that Vivienne isn't one extreme.  Of course she is.  Everyone, including her, would admit that her experience is atypical.  The question is, "Does that mean that her opinions on the 'typical' mage experience is inaccurate?" 

 

I'm sure that it's skewed in some capacity.  She, as far as we know, have only lived in two circles:  Ostwick and Monstimmard.  Neither were particularly conservative (like the Circle Tower or the Gallows).  So her first hand experience wouldn't involve any of the worst atrocities that templars did to mages.  However, on the other hand, she's an influential courtesian who specifically thrives by understanding politics.  And since we know that she's got connections with loyalist mages not just within Orlais, it would make sense that she knows what's up to some degree in other Circles. 

 

My take away on it is that Anders is correct that there were terrible things happening to mages in some Circles, but it was likely the extreme and not the norm, particularly since his experiences were specifically tied to two fairly conservative Circles.  And I think that Vivienne was also correct in the fact that most mages were not treated terribly and had some freedoms particularly when they earned the trust and support of the First Enchanter and Knight Commander of their Circle.  But, just like with Anders,I'm sure that her view is skewed from her experiences.  If I had to say where the "truth" lies, it's likely somewhere in between.  There was some corruption that caused mages to be treated terribly, but it was not the norm and most mages lived perfectly comfortable, yet restricted lives.

[Sarielle]

I don't like being able to actually argue with her, she tends to make statements about people and we can't tell say a thing back (her assertions about the Dalish to a Palish character spring to mind. )

 

This isn't really true. I posted this the previous page:

 

Youtube clip: linkie

 

^ Clip of the convo about Dalish and mages.

[Boost32]

Why people says she didnt leave in the Circles? She couldnt be the First Enchanter of Montsmmard of she didnt, of course she could leave the Circle when she wanted to go to Bastien;

And she is not the only one, after bastien death she says that before Anders the nobility didnt fear the mages as much, every noble had one mage with them, so if every noble family had one, a lot of mages could leave the Circles.

If she is made Divine, she grants mage more freedom and responsabilities, so how she doesnt care about them? Or how she doesnt want them to have the same opportunities that she had?

[LobselVith8]

Why people says she didnt leave in the Circles? She couldnt be the First Enchanter of Montsmmard of she didnt, of course she could leave the Circle when she wanted to go to Bastien;

And she is not the only one, after bastien death she says that before Anders the nobility didnt fear the mages as much, every noble had one mage with them, so if every noble family had one, a lot of mages could leave the Circles.

 

Andrastians feared mages before Anders. Even Lambert makes note of this:  "Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile. He imagined the Divine reading that. Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different?"

 

If she is made Divine, she grants mage more freedom and responsabilities, so how she doesnt care about them? Or how she doesnt want them to have the same opportunities that she had?

 

Vivienne grants them more privileges within the Chantry controlled Circles while she has power and authority over the mages and the templars within the Chantry hierarchy, and she also kills the mages who want to live their lives outside Chantry dominance.

[Boost32]

Andrastians feared mages before Anders. Even Lambert makes note of this:  "Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile. He imagined the Divine reading that. Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different?"

Dont understand what you want to say, what this have to do with Vivienne being in the Circle?

 

 

Vivienne grants them more privileges within the Chantry controlled Circles while she has power and authority over the mages and the templars within the Chantry hierarchy, and she also kills the mages who want to live their lives outside Chantry dominance.

 

She defeats a rebellion, those who surrendered are spared.

Its clear she wouldnt trust the rebellion mages, but its changes nothing, she improves the lives of the mages whether you like it or not. If they live better under other Divine is another thing.

[LobselVith8]

Dont understand what you want to say, what this have to do with Vivienne being in the Circle?

 

It had to do with the assertion about how Andrastians viewed magic before Anders killed the Grand Cleric, since Lambert comments on how the Chantry taught people to fear mages for the better part of a millennium and believe that they should be contained in the Circles.

 

She defeats a rebellion, those who surrendered are spared.

 

It wasn't a rebellion; it was men, women, and children who didn't want to live under the dominion of the Chantry.

 

Its clear she wouldnt trust the rebellion mages, but its changes nothing, she improves the lives of the mages whether you like it or not. If they live better under other Divine is another thing.

 

That's debatable, since I'm sure opinion is divided among the mage population on whether or not things are improved for their people by forcing mages to live under Chantry control.

[Sarielle]

No, she counters with a question that makes it clear she isn't listening to the Inquisitor clarifying the Dalish for her.

 

So what happened to this argument and the "she interrupted me" bit? After I posted the video you just kinda started ignoring that convo ...

 

 

[Shahadem]

Sure it does.

 

She was able to escape the trappings of the Circle.  And quite easily, given how she described it.  She didn't even seem to think she was unique in that, which is telling, giving her ego.

 

She described it as easy because she had to ****** herself out to an Orlesion noble to do it. So while it was "physically" easy, she only managed it because she found an Orlesion noble who was willing to see fit to ensure that his mistress from free of the Circle. So yes it was easy for her because it was her love who was the one who did the work to free her from the Circle and then did the work to keep her out oft he Circle.

[mikeymoonshine]

You seem to be taking the dislike of Vivienne very personally. If you can't handle me pointing out how Vivienne blatantly ignores the elven Inquisitor correcting her generalization of an entire ethnic group, then you're welcome to opt out of this conversation.

 

Yes, that's why I am angrily responding to everyone who criticizes her in this thread. oh wait... 

 

 

 

We don't know what most clans do since no one addresses what most of the People do.


By citing an example that's only applicable to some clans, and not all of them?

 

We know what most of the clans we have experienced do. You have provided one very special case exception that would only account for a clan having one extra mage so I am going to go with the information we do have. Lets also remember that she posed a lot of what she said as questions, she was challenging the PC to come up with a winning argument and the PC failed. Although to be fair the PC can't win, maybe because there is no easy answer. 

 

 

 

It's valid for the Inquisitor to say that the Dalish don't have templars; they certainly didn't when the Dales existed as a free elven state.


It's more valid than Vivienne's generalization of the entirety of the Dalish.

 

Again, you are ignoring context. You could point out many societies in Thedas who "don't have Templars" that really doesn't matter. Vivienne was arguing that measures needed to be taken to police the mages in case of abominations. She was suggesting the use of Templars. The Elf Inquisitors counter point was that their society did not have Templars. So Vivienne points out that they still do take steps to police mages, yes she generalizes with the worst example (I never disputed this) but this example exists and no current Dalish model we know of would work for that situation. The Inquisition cannot adopt a system similar to the Dalish, that's not going to provide the protection she believes there needs to be. So the Inquisitor completely failed to counter her argument, maybe there should have been more response options but Vivienne won that one because she was right despite presenting a slightly unfair argument. Maybe they did that because pro mage characters would just have a complete ideological difference to her and believe that mage freedom was worth the risk they can pose to themselves and others. 

 

As for the times of the dales, I have no idea how they dealt with the risks so I can't comment. 

[Shahadem]

 

It wasn't a rebellion; it was men, women, and children who didn't want to live under the dominion of the Chantry.

 

And the French Revolution was composed of men, women and children who didn't want to live under the dominion of the French aristocracy.

[Shahadem]

But at the same time, Vivienne's is proof that the abuses Circle mages suffer are not universal either. 

 

No one was ever arguing that it happened to every mage. Only that it could happen to every mage because mages are forced to sacrifice every single protection and live at the mercy of their captors.

[LobselVith8]

So what happened to this argument and the "she interrupted me" bit? After I posted the video you just kinda started ignoring that convo ...

 

I said that Vivienne spoke as though the hearsay that she heard trumped the life experience of the elven Inquisitor as a Dalish elf, and that even when the main character corrects her generalization of the People, she keeps the same frame of mind. I also disagreed that the Inquisitor "remained silent" when she asked the question, and pointed out that she kept talking right afterwards.

[AshenEndymion]

No one was ever arguing that it happened to every mage. Only that it could happen to every mage because mages are forced to sacrifice every single protection and live at the mercy of their captors.

 

By that logic, abuses could happen to every commoner in Thedas...  And that's true, too.

 

Just because abuses can happen, doesn't mean the entire system needs to change...  It only needs to change if abuses are likely to happen.  And the evidence points to abuses just being isolated incidents(and thus not likely to happen).

[mikeymoonshine]

She described it as easy because she had to ****** herself out to an Orlesion noble to do it. So while it was "physically" easy, she only managed it because she found an Orlesion noble who was willing to see fit to ensure that his mistress from free of the Circle. So yes it was easy for her because it was her love who was the one who did the work to free her from the Circle and then did the work to keep her out oft he Circle.

 

But the position still existed before she took it and I imagine whoever had it would have to spend a lot of time out of the circle and we have numerous examples of other mages not living in the circle towers.