824 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarielle]

I said that Vivienne spoke as though the hearsay that she heard trumped the life experience of the elven Inquisitor as a Dalish elf, and that even when the main character corrects her generalization of the People, she keeps the same frame of mind. I also disagreed that the Inquisitor "remained silent" when she asked the question, and pointed out that she kept talking right afterwards.

 

And you're sticking to that after watching a refresher?

 

Youtube clip: linkie

 

I'm just trying to decide if there's a point to continuing. Cause I can only debate things grounded in reality, lol.

[Boost32]

It had to do with the assertion about how Andrastians viewed magic before Anders killed the Grand Cleric, since Lambert comments on how the Chantry taught people to fear mages for the better part of a millennium and believe that they should be contained in the Circles.

So what? Before Anders mages had more freedom, its a fact.

 

It wasn't a rebellion; it was men, women, and children who didn't want to live under the dominion of the Chantry.

 

"However, this new mage rebellion does not last, as the Divine brings down her fury upon them."

Yes it was, and it can only happen if you side with the Mages, no mention of others mages, beyond Fiona's rebels, who didnt want to go back.

 

 

That's debatable, since I'm sure opinion is divided among the mage population on whether or not things are improved for their people by forcing mages to live under Chantry control.

"Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her."

Compared to the old Circles they live better, its a fact, you not liking the Circles doesnt change it.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, that's why I am angrily responding to everyone who criticizes her in this thread. oh wait... 

 

Perhaps you should refrain from making it personal, then, and focus on the topic of Vivienne instead of the posters?

 

We know what most of the clans we have experienced do. You have provided one very special case exception that would only account for a clan having one extra mage so I am going to go with the information we do have. Lets also remember that she posed a lot of what she said as questions, she was challenging the PC to come up with a winning argument and the PC failed. Although to be fair the PC can't win, maybe because there is no easy answer. 

 

No, the protagonist didn't fail, because Vivienne wasn't actually trying to learn anything new; she stayed with the same hearsay argument that she started out with, and didn't actually bother to address that the protagonist already tells her that she's wrong to think that every clan behaves in the same way as Minaeve's clan.

 

Again, you are ignoring context. You could point out many societies in Thedas who "don't have Templars" that really doesn't matter. Vivienne was arguing that measures needed to be taken to police the mages in case of abominations. She was suggesting the use of Templars. The Elf Inquisitors counter point was that their society did not have Templars. So Vivienne points out that they still do take steps to police mages, yes she generalizes with the worst example (I never disputed this) but this example exists and no current Dalish model we know of would work for that situation. The Inquisition cannot adopt a system similar to the Dalish, that's not going to provide the protection she believes there needs to be. So the Inquisitor completely failed to counter her argument, maybe there should have been more response options but Vivienne won that one because she was right despite presenting a slightly unfair argument. Maybe they did that because pro mage characters would just have a complete ideological difference to her and believe that mage freedom was worth the risk they can pose to themselves and others. 

 

Except this example doesn't apply to every single Dalish clan, as the protagonist points out; it only applies to some clans. And it's still not an example that the mages need to be policed when mages are free among the Dalish. If mages are free, then they aren't being policed. Also, Merrill pointed out that the templars are a threat to the clans, and are part of the reason why the clans are nomadic in the first place. If the clan is exiling mages because it puts them in danger due to templars who hunt down the clans (as in the case of Ariane's clan, as she defended her clan from a templar attack), it's hardly an argument that works in Vivienne's favor.

 

I also don't see why you're acting as though Vivienne was trying to actually debate the issue with the Inquisitor; she acts petulant multiple times, whether it's her snobby attitude towards Blackwall (before the revelation), or her pulling the stunt with the furniture because the Inquisitor had the audacity to have different opinions than she does.

 

As for the times of the dales, I have no idea how they dealt with the risks so I can't comment. 

 

It was a kingdom with free mages, which is why there were mages among the nobility and within the priesthood (the Keepers of the era).

[AshenEndymion]

No, the protagonist didn't fail, because Vivienne wasn't actually trying to learn anything new; she stayed with the same hearsay argument that she started out with, and didn't actually bother to address that the protagonist already tells her that she's wrong to think that every clan behaves in the same way as Minaeve's clan.

 

The protagonist wasn't actually trying to give Vivienne any new information... The statement from Vivienne was that all societies in Thedas police mages.  The Dalish may not have Templars, but they police their mages by not allowing there to be more than a three in each clan...  That the Dalish inquisitor doesn't contradict it, says that Vivienne's "hearsay" is 100% accurate.  At least to a member of Clan Lavellen.

[LobselVith8]

And you're sticking to that after watching a refresher?

 

You mean the scene with a petty Vivienne bringing up Dalish hearsay, and then handwaving what the elven Inquisitor says to her so she can stick to her original assertion?

 

I'm just trying to decide if there's a point to continuing. Cause I can only debate things grounded in reality, lol.

 

The idea that you think your view of Vivienne should be shared by everyone makes this entire circular discussion pretty moot at this point.

[Sarielle]

You mean the scene with a petty Vivienne bringing up Dalish hearsay, and then handwaving what the elven Inquisitor says to her so she can stick to her original assertion?

 

 

The idea that you think your view of Vivienne should be shared by everyone makes this entire circular discussion pretty moot at this point.

 

Yes, because that's exactly what happened. In both instances. You had me going for a bit, I thought you really were just emotionally invested and letting that colour your memory. Well played.

[daveliam]

The idea that you think your view of Vivienne should be shared by everyone makes this entire circular discussion pretty moot at this point.

 

Oh the irony is strong with this one.........

[LOLandStuff]

It's not that Vivienne cuts you off or knows better or whatever. But even your Dalish is tired of talking about Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

So what? Before Anders mages had more freedom, its a fact.

 

The comment was in response to the view of mages, as you well know.

 

"However, this new mage rebellion does not last, as the Divine brings down her fury upon them."

Yes it was, and it can only happen if you side with the Mages, no mention of others mages, beyond Fiona's rebels, who didnt want to go back.

 

Men, women, and children who wanted to live outside Chantry control is "the rebellion" you mention, and they are killed for their refusal to capitulate to Chantry control. I don't see what gives the Chantry any authority over their lives.

 

"Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her."

Compared to the old Circles they live better, its a fact, you not liking the Circles doesnt change it.

 

Your opinion that they should think it's better doesn't mean it's indisputably better, particularly for anyone who wanted actual freedom from the Chantry controlled Circles.

[AresKeith]

It's not that Vivienne cuts you off or knows better or whatever. But even your Dalish is tired of talking about Dalish.

 

"All we do is talk about ourselves"

[daveliam]

Men, women, and children who wanted to live outside Chantry control is "the rebellion" you mention, and they are killed for their refusal to capitulate to Chantry control. I don't see what gives the Chantry any authority over their lives.

 

Yes, it's a "rebellion". 

 

re·bel·lion

rəˈbelyən/

noun

noun: rebellion; plural noun: rebellions

1. an act of violent or open resistance to an established government or ruler.

   "the authorities put down a rebellion by landless colonials"

   synonyms: uprising, revolt, insurrection, mutiny, revolution, insurgence, insurgency; More

   rioting, riot, disorder, unrest

   "troops suppressed the rebellion"

   • the action or process of resisting authority, control, or convention.

     "an act of teenage rebellion"

     synonyms: defiance, disobedience, rebelliousness, insubordination, subversion, subversiveness, resistance

     "an act of rebellion"

[LOLandStuff]

"All we do is talk about ourselves"

 

If they don't ***** and whine about how persecuted they are, they boast and brag how better than everyone they were.

[LobselVith8]

Oh the irony is strong with this one.........

 

Where did I say that everyone should share my view of Vivienne? I explained why I dislike her; I never said everyone else should share my view of the character.

 

Yes, it's a "rebellion". 

 

re·bel·lion

rəˈbelyən/

noun

noun: rebellion; plural noun: rebellions

1. an act of violent or open resistance to an established government or ruler.

   "the authorities put down a rebellion by landless colonials"

   synonyms: uprising, revolt, insurrection, mutiny, revolution, insurgence, insurgency; More

   rioting, riot, disorder, unrest

   "troops suppressed the rebellion"

   • the action or process of resisting authority, control, or convention.

     "an act of teenage rebellion"

     synonyms: defiance, disobedience, rebelliousness, insubordination, subversion, subversiveness, resistance

     "an act of rebellion"

 

I've read nothing there that gives the Chantry any legitimate right over the lives of the mages, which was the issue in the first place.

[Boost32]

The comment was in response to the view of mages, as you well know.

And I still dont see how its relates with my post, I said nothing about how Andrastians views mages, I said before Anders the Orlesian nobility didnt had so much fear of mages and employed them, they had the same opportunity to leave the Circle as Vivienne.

 

Men, women, and children who wanted to live outside Chantry control is "the rebellion" you mention, and they are killed for their refusal to capitulate to Chantry control. I don't see what gives the Chantry any authority over their lives.

The ones who surrendered or the ones who didnt fight werent killed, its stated in her epilogue. And I see the why the Chantry should have authority over their lives, its because they are dangerous. Do you remember the Blight? Werewolf Curse? The dead rising? Abominations? Blood magic sacrifices? Lyrium marks? And none of those that I mentioned were comitted by the mages in the Circles, a lot of lives would be spared if they were there.

 

Your opinion that they should think it's better doesn't mean it's indisputably better, particularly for anyone who wanted actual freedom from the Chantry controlled Circles.

Its not a opinion, the mages have a better life in her Cirlce than in the old Circle, and if one mages think he would be better free, he can prove himself to be trustworth and he can leave, Vivienne still give them a chance to prove themselves.

 

And its starting to be a circular argument, you can reply if you want, Im tired of this line of discussion.

[daveliam]

Where did I say that everyone should share my view of Vivienne? I explained why I dislike her; I never said everyone else should share my view of the character.

 

By completely dismissing any opposing view and blatantly ignoring evidence that refutes your statements, you are effectively saying that your view  is the only correct one.

 

I've read nothing there that gives the Chantry any legitimate right over the lives of the mages, which was the issue in the first place.

 

I don't think you understand what a rebellion is then.  A rebellion isn't "right" or "wrong" by itself.  It's the uprising against control or power.  Sometimes rebellions are "just" and other times they aren't.  You see to be assigning some moral value to a neutral term.

[AshenEndymion]

Men, women, and children who wanted to live outside Chantry control is "the rebellion" you mention, and they are killed for their refusal to capitulate to Chantry control. I don't see what gives the Chantry any authority over their lives.

 
What gives the country you are presently in any authority over your life?  The answer:  The fact that you're in said country gives them that right.
 
The Chantry holds authority over the lives of all mages in Andrastian territories because the Andrastian nations have given said authority to the Chantry.  Any mage can dispute said authority, or try to leave the Andrastian nations, but if they fail(by being captured), they are still subject to the laws of the nation they are in...

[rashie]

I don't mind her actual personality all that much but its the way she addresses the inquisitor that gets to me, it feels condescending hearing her open with "my dear" so often combined with the accent.

 

I think that's one of the main reasons for why my two inquisitor never really bothered to bring her along.

[LobselVith8]

And I still dont see how its relates with my post, I said nothing about how Andrastians views mages, I said before Anders the Orlesian nobility didnt had so much fear of mages and employed them, they had the same opportunity to leave the Circle as Vivienne.

 

Orlesian nobility are Andrastian, and considering that Vivienne has political connections and a noble lover, I don't think she's an example of what the majority of Circle mages can do.

 

The ones who surrendered or the ones who didnt fight werent killed, its stated in her epilogue. And I see the why the Chantry should have authority over their lives, its because they are dangerous. Do you remember the Blight? Werewolf Curse? The dead rising? Abominations? Blood magic sacrifices? Lyrium marks? And none of those that I mentioned were comitted by the mages in the Circles, a lot of lives would be spared if they were there.

 

I don't agree that the Chantry should have any authority over mages. I remember templars torturing a da'len hunter of Clan Sabrae, Alrik raping women by making them tranquil, Alain getting raped by templars, Meredith's death squad almost attacking a woman for feeding her tortured and starved mage cousin, and Meredith condemning an entire population of men, women, and children to death for the actions of a single man who was standing right in front of her.

 

Its not a opinion, the mages have a better life in her Cirlce than in the old Circle, and if one mages think he would be better free, he can prove himself to be trustworth and he can leave, Vivienne still give them a chance to prove themselves.

 

And its starting to be a circular argument, you can reply if you want, Im tired of this line of discussion.

 

It is an opinion when you're trying to say that Vivienne's rule is better for every mage in the Circle, when I'm certain that this opinion would vary among the mages.

[Heidirs]

No, the protagonist didn't fail, because Vivienne wasn't actually trying to learn anything new; she stayed with the same hearsay argument that she started out with, and didn't actually bother to address that the protagonist already tells her that she's wrong to think that every clan behaves in the same way as Minaeve's clan.

 

Here's the thing. Say, Vivienne takes your Inquisitor's argument that mages aren't policed in all Dalish clans... She believes you. So what? Mages are still policed by the Qunari and the Chantry. Mages still wreck havoc in Tevinter and elsewhere in Thedas. Vivienne still has penty of evidence by majority - your Inquisitor's clan being in the minority - that mages still are and need to be policed. I still don't understand how you expect your Inquisitor's single experience of their clan to alter Vivienne's view point. It's one tiny exception to a whole world of Thedas that in Vivienne's eyes says otherwise. I don't understand how you expected Vivienne's response to your Inquisitor to be any different than what it was. And I don't know why it's such a big issue for you.

[LobselVith8]

By completely dismissing any opposing view and blatantly ignoring evidence that refutes your statements, you are effectively saying that your view  is the only correct one.

 

We're addressing a specific scene where plenty of people have expressed the same irritation over Vivienne's behavior in that moment, and even some Vashoth fans have expressed similar annoyance when playing as a qunari mage in other threads because of that scene. Considering that people in this thread are trying to tell me that I'm wrong for having a problem with Vivienne, your post is more than a little ridiculous.

 

I get that you're a fan of the character, but that doesn't mean that I - or anyone else - should have to share your overall opinion of the character. I'm simply defending my right to take issue with the character.

 

I don't think you understand what a rebellion is then.  A rebellion isn't "right" or "wrong" by itself.  It's the uprising against control or power.  Sometimes rebellions are "just" and other times they aren't.  You see to be assigning some moral value to a neutral term.

 

The mages tried to live their lives on their own terms, and Vivienne's Chantry arbitrarily decided that the Circles deserved to have control over every mage instead. I understand the context of the situation fairly well.

[lil yonce]

I don't see why it matters that things get better for the mages under Vivi!Divine. The standard of living rose for slaves in slave societies too. They were still slaves. It doesn't mean the system is good. Vivienne has submitted herself to being a manager of the existing power structures- therefore she will always be a huge limiter on change. What would IMO be best for the mages is not possible under her.

[TheJediSaint]

Well this thread just got entertaining.

 

 

Let's see what happens next.

[LobselVith8]

Here's the thing. Say, Vivienne takes your Inquisitor's argument that mages aren't policed in all Dalish clans... She believes you. So what? Mages are still policed by the Qunari and the Chantry. Mages still wreck havoc in Tevinter and elsewhere in Thedas. Vivienne still has penty of evidence by majority - your Inquisitor's clan being in the minority - that mages still are and need to be policed. I still don't understand how you expect your Inquisitor's single experience of their clan to alter Vivienne's view point. It's one tiny exception to a whole world of Thedas that in Vivienne's eyes says otherwise. I don't understand how you expected Vivienne's response to your Inquisitor to be any different than what it was. And I don't know why it's such a big issue for you.

 

There's absolutely no evidence that Minaeve's clan is an example of "the majority". And since I previously cited her deplorable attitude towards Blackwall (before the revelation) and her little tantrum with the furniture, it's not as though the scene with the elven Inquisitor is the only reason why I have an issue with the character. I dislike her; I don't share her ideals or support her advancement to the position of Divine. You're more than welcome to feel differently about the character.

[daveliam]

We're addressing a specific scene where plenty of people have expressed the same irritation over Vivienne's behavior in that moment, and even some Vashoth fans have expressed similar annoyance when playing as a qunari mage in other threads because of that scene. Considering that people in this thread are trying to tell me that I'm wrong for having a problem with Vivienne, your post is more than a little ridiculous.

 

I get that you're a fan of the character, but that doesn't mean that I - or anyone else - should have to share your overall opinion of the character. I'm simply defending my right to take issue with the character.

 

 

The mages tried to live their lives on their own terms, and Vivienne's Chantry arbitrarily decided that the Circles deserved to have control over every mage instead. I understand the context of the situation fairly well.

 

No one is telling you that you are wrong for disliking Vivienne.  But, like any other time when the Dalish come up, you get tunnel vision to the point where you refuse to even listen to anyone else's points and just keep repeating yourself over and over.  The fact that you can't even recognize that the mage rebellion is a rebellion (HINT: it's in the NAME) just shows that.

 

I'm done with this conversation because it's like talking to a brick wall, but with less stimulating conversation......., . 

[Heidirs]

There's absolutely no evidence that Minaeve's clan is an example of "the majority". And since I previously cited her deplorable attitude towards Blackwall (before the revelation) and her little tantrum with the furniture, it's not as though the scene with the elven Inquisitor is the only reason why I have an issue with the character. I dislike her; I don't share her ideals or support her advancement to the position of Divine. You're more than welcome to feel differently about the character.

 

But Vivienne isn't talking about the Minaeve's clan, she's talking about the mages throughout Thedas. She brings up the Dalish as an example to how the mages are treated everywhere. Somehow, you seem to be expecting your Inquisitor's single experience to be opinion-altering evidence for her. But your Inquisitor's clan is no more an example of the "majority" than Minaeve's. Why would that change Vivienne's view of mages overall?

 

I didn't mean to suggest you can't like her character. I just don't understand why you take issue with that specific conversation with her.