824 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

No one is telling you that you are wrong for disliking Vivienne.

 

This discussion wouldn't have happened if certain people didn't feel inclined to turn my dislike of the character into a debate.

 

But, like any other time when the Dalish come up, you get tunnel vision to the point where you refuse to even listen to anyone else's points and just keep repeating yourself over and over. 

 

This thread has caused pro-Vivienne fans views like: people only dislike her for false reasons, or express contempt that people disliked her over her policies when she became Divine. I think you're the one with tunnel vision because you're ignoring why some people took issue with these claims. Some people simply don't like Vivienne, and considering your earlier stated views on people who dislike Vivienne, you're hardly impartial here. I didn't like her in the scene about the Dalish; I didn't like her treatment of Blackwall, Solas, or Cole; furthermore, I didn't like the policies she enacted if she became Divine. I dislike the character for a plethora of reasons.

 

The fact that you can't even recognize that the mage rebellion is a rebellion (HINT: it's in the NAME) just shows that. 

 

I think you're conflating the Mage-Templar War with Vivienne attacking the mages who refuse to capitulate to her rule when she becomes Divine.

 

I'm done with this conversation because it's like talking to a brick wall, but with less stimulating conversation......., . 

 

I'm certain the people who have defended themselves for disliking Vivienne feel the same way.

[Addai]

The protagonist wasn't actually trying to give Vivienne any new information... The statement from Vivienne was that all societies in Thedas police mages.  The Dalish may not have Templars, but they police their mages by not allowing there to be more than a three in each clan...  That the Dalish inquisitor doesn't contradict it, says that Vivienne's "hearsay" is 100% accurate.  At least to a member of Clan Lavellen.

That is half the problem with Vivienne right there, as multiple people have pointed out- that the Inquisitor is never allowed to challenge her in any meaningful way. The fact that the Inquisitor makes no counter-argument is not a concession. Though the real fallacy is Vivienne's implication that the Dalish policy, whatever it may be, justifies locking all mages up under templar control.

[Sarielle]

That is half the problem with Vivienne right there, as multiple people have pointed out- that the Inquisitor is never allowed to challenge her in any meaningful way. The fact that the Inquisitor makes no counter-argument is not a concession. Though the real fallacy is Vivienne's implication that the Dalish policy, whatever it may be, justifies locking all mages up under templar control.

 

So ... what's the answer to Vivienne's question, then? What should your Inquisitor have been able to answer? (Though I'd argue that, by offering no further answer option, Bioware is indicating she is correct.)

 

Vivienne: And if there are no clans in need of a first or second?

 

(This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely curious. )

 

I don't see it as Vivi using it as Templar justification so much as saying "Hey, even you guys have a less-than-ideal solution for limiting the risk mages can pose." EDIT: Or, perhaps, "Your solution isn't really any better/kinder."

[Addai]

So ... what's the answer to Vivienne's question, then? What should your Inquisitor have been able to answer? (Though I'd argue that, by offering no further answer option, Bioware is indicating she is correct.)

 

Vivienne: And if there are no clans in need of a first or second?

 

(This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely curious. )

 

I don't see it as Vivi using it as Templar justification so much as saying "Hey, even you guys have a less-than-ideal solution for limiting the risk mages can pose." EDIT: Or, perhaps, "Your solution isn't really any better/kinder."

You train your spare mages in healing or enchantment, or you just let them live their lives with minimal training to control their magic and pursuing whatever kind of life they please. Minaeve isn't frothing with demons even though she's got no templars looking over her shoulder. The keepers who practice this (and I don't dispute it's what Bioware wants to portray) are simply idiots, have probably absorbed Andrastian superstitions about magic, and given their aspirations to restore Arlathan, are hypocrites as well.

 

That's what I'd tell Vivienne, basically. As well as challenging her to examine if her own presuppositions about magic are either deeply rooted superstition or a convenient excuse for those in power to keep it and get more- likely both. Tyrants always use the threat of danger to prop up their authority.

[Sarielle]

You train your spare mages in healing or enchantment, or you just let them live their lives with minimal training to control their magic and pursuing whatever kind of life they please.

 

But ... you're saying what you believe should be done, not what we have evidence is done. You're answering a question Vivienne isn't asking.

[Addai]

But ... you're saying what you believe should be done, not what we have evidence is done. You're answering a question Vivienne isn't asking.

The question Vivienne poses isn't looking for information. For one thing, Vivienne thinks she knows everything. And in this case, I agree that this is what Bioware has decided to present about at least some clans, so she isn't wrong. Her argument is still wrong. That's what I would challenge her about.

[Sarielle]

The question Vivienne poses isn't looking for information. For one thing, Vivienne thinks she knows everything. And in this case, I agree that this is what Bioware has decided to present about at least some clans, so she isn't wrong. Her argument is still wrong. That's what I would challenge her about.

 

She admits at the start that she does not have first-hand knowledge ("As I understand it ... blah blah"). No, she's not looking for information at the end, she's pointing out that the solution the Dalish employ is not a perfect one, either. In case you don't wanna watch the video (I don't blame you, I don't like video vs. print for info) the entire convo is:

 

<Vivi's "magic is dangerous" spiel>

Quiz: The Dalish get long just fine without templars or Circle towers.

Vivi: As I understand it, the elves limit their risk by refusing to have more than three mages in a clan. Tell me, what becomes of the Dalish youngster who is not appointed first or second?

Quiz: If a clan can't raise the mage, they're sent to another that's in need of a first or second.

Vivi: And if there are no clans in need of a first or second?

 

Emphasis is mine. Note, even Dalish elves who are not cut loose may be removed from their family and friends.

 

EDIT: I'm not trying to debate the merits of the Circle system, btw. Just pointing out that hating on Vivi for that conversation is unreasonable from a factual perspective.

EDIT EDIT: I also think getting to offer more solutions would be neat, but no matter how many options you gave players, there would always be players who go, "But I/my character wouldn't suggest any of that, they'd suggest <insert option that was not given in-game>" I just don't think it's really practical.

[mikeymoonshine]

Perhaps you should refrain from making it personal, then, and focus on the topic of Vivienne instead of the posters?

 

I know sarcasm is hard to detect on the internet but come on. No I am not angry about anyone thinking anything about Vivienne, I just found some of your condescending remarks to be a little bit ridiculous. Now YOU are the one making it personal by lecturing me over the fact that I was a little bit sarcastic in some of my responses to you. I like being sarcastic and I shall continue to be if and when I feel like it, if you can't handle that you can take your own advice and not respond. xx 

No, the protagonist didn't fail, because Vivienne wasn't actually trying to learn anything new; she stayed with the same hearsay argument that she started out with, and didn't actually bother to address that the protagonist already tells her that she's wrong to think that every clan behaves in the same way as Minaeve's clan.

 

It was a completely irrelevant response to what she was talking about. It doesn't matter how differently the clans do it because as far as we know all of them do something and non of them contain several hundred mages. I assume this is why she didn't wait for a response, because that solution only works under certain circumstances. I don't see why you don't get it, the Inquisitor did not provide a compelling counter argument. Maybe you could have been given the chance to provide one but Vivienne didn't seem to be interested in arguing ideology, she was only talking about risks.

Except this example doesn't apply to every single Dalish clan, as the protagonist points out; it only applies to some clans. 

 

I don't really care about this point and I never disputed it yet you are still going on about it. I mean I could point out that she never actually says that they "all" kick extra mages out and only questions what happens to those with nowhere else to go but what would be the point? You would bang on about how insincere she was being or something. 

And it's still not an example that the mages need to be policed when mages are free among the Dalish. If mages are free, then they aren't being policed. Also, Merrill pointed out that the templars are a threat to the clans, and are part of the reason why the clans are nomadic in the first place. If the clan is exiling mages because it puts them in danger due to templars who hunt down the clans (as in the case of Ariane's clan, as she defended her clan from a templar attack), it's hardly an argument that works in Vivienne's favor.

 

So this point seems to be about semantics. Would you say you are free? Would you say you are not being policed by anyone? The Dalish generally seem to have different rules for mages in the clans as well as systems in place to deal with the dangers of magic. I don't remember ever saying they were constantly exiling mages and I don't remember Vivienne saying that either. What is obvious though is that mage trading system would not work if there were hundreds of mages among the Dalish. If you are arguing that it isn't necessary then you are arguing that this system is also wrong and it becomes an ideological argument rather than one about risk prevention. 

 

 

I also don't see why you're acting as though Vivienne was trying to actually debate the issue with the Inquisitor; she acts petulant multiple times, whether it's her snobby attitude towards Blackwall (before the revelation), or her pulling the stunt with the furniture because the Inquisitor had the audacity to have different opinions than she does.

 

I merely point out that she give's the Inquisitor the option to dispute the necessity of what she is proposing. She unfairly controls that debate and she probably isn't asking in good faith but she still asks and she still wins because the inquisitor fails to counter her point. But really now you are once again showing that to you this is all about how you don't like the way she behaves and little to do with her actual arguments. That's fine, I just dunno why you can't see that. 

It was a kingdom with free mages, which is why there were mages among the nobility and within the priesthood (the Keepers of the era).

 

and? Tervinter also has free mages, I imagine Vivienne is aware of the existence of both of these societies. Obviously she doesn't agree with them. 

[Xilizhra]

That's one of my favorite Vivienne moments. She's a gay ally! Can we really expect that such a fabulous woman wouldn't be though? It's just nice to see her confirm it.

I have no doubt that she'd rip apart a gay enemy for that with no remorse. Not that she's homophobic personally, but I can't imagine that she has a problem with exploiting it in other people if it's convenient.

[Cantina]

She admits at the start that she does not have first-hand knowledge ("As I understand it ... blah blah"). No, she's not looking for information at the end, she's pointing out that the solution the Dalish employ is not a perfect one, either. In case you don't wanna watch the video (I don't blame you, I don't like video vs. print for info) the entire convo is:

 

<Vivi's "magic is dangerous" spiel>

Quiz: The Dalish get long just fine without templars or Circle towers.

Vivi: As I understand it, the elves limit their risk by refusing to have more than three mages in a clan. Tell me, what becomes of the Dalish youngster who is not appointed first or second?

Quiz: If a clan can't raise the mage, they're sent to another that's in need of a first or second.

Vivi: And if there are no clans in need of a first or second?

 

Emphasis is mine. Note, even Dalish elves who are not cut loose may be removed from their family and friends.

 

EDIT: I'm not trying to debate the merits of the Circle system, btw. Just pointing out that hating on Vivi for that conversation is unreasonable from a factual perspective.

EDIT EDIT: I also think getting to offer more solutions would be neat, but no matter how many options you gave players, there would always be players who go, "But I/my character wouldn't suggest any of that, they'd suggest <insert option that was not given in-game>" I just don't think it's really practical.

 

Damn. I never play an elf, so I would never get this dialogue.

 

Man, after reading that crap, I despise her even more then before.

 

And every time Viv, says, "Tell me" or "Dear" a child disappears from Thedas.

[mikeymoonshine]

The question Vivienne poses isn't looking for information. For one thing, Vivienne thinks she knows everything. And in this case, I agree that this is what Bioware has decided to present about at least some clans, so she isn't wrong. Her argument is still wrong. That's what I would challenge her about.

 

It is though, it's just not looking for an argument for someone's opinion that mages should be free. The Inquisitor gets to express this sentiment to her several times but never gets to talk her into agreeing. 

[Sarielle]

Damn. I never play an elf, so I would never get this dialogue.

 

Man, after reading that crap, I despise her even more then before.

 

For the record, you do not necessarily have to choose the "We send them to another clan" option. You can choose an "At least they die free" option as well, and something else I don't remember

 

What about it makes you dislike her personally? (Again, not a rhetorical question.)

[daveliam]

Seriously, the Vivienne "haters" need to take a pill and relax a bit.  She's a fictional character; stop taking everything so seriously.  Good lord.  It's just a shame that they won't let people have conversations about this character without coming and spewing hate all the time.  This is the third time that a Vivienne thread has gone this way in the past two weeks.  Ugh. 

[Nimlowyn]

For the record, you do not necessarily have to choose the "We send them to another clan" option. You can choose an "At least they die free" option as well, and something else I don't remember

 

What about it makes you dislike her personally? (Again, not a rhetorical question.)

I chose (as a Dalish) the "I agree, but Templars aren't the answer" option. Interestingly, Vivienne approved.

[TheJediSaint]

Seriously, the Vivienne "haters" need to take a pill and relax a bit.  She's a fictional character; stop taking everything so seriously.  Good lord.  It's just a shame that they won't let people have conversations about this character without coming and spewing hate all the time.  Ugh. 

Peasants can't help but spit vitriol at their betters, darling.  Pay them no heed.

[AresKeith]

Seriously, the Vivienne "haters" need to take a pill and relax a bit.  She's a fictional character; stop taking everything so seriously.  Good lord.  It's just a shame that they won't let people have conversations about this character without coming and spewing hate all the time.  This is the third time that a Vivienne thread has gone this way in the past two weeks.  Ugh. 

 

She needs to redecorate their place

[BabyPuncher]

Seriously, the Vivienne "haters" need to take a pill and relax a bit.  She's a fictional character; stop taking everything so seriously.  Good lord.  It's just a shame that they won't let people have conversations about this character without coming and spewing hate all the time.  This is the third time that a Vivienne thread has gone this way in the past two weeks.  Ugh. 

 

I'm sure you know why that's a very weak response to criticism. The only reason I play BioWare games is because I expect quality writing out of them. Vivienne falls far short of that bar.
 

[Sarielle]

I chose (as a Dalish) the "I agree, but Templars aren't the answer" option. Interestingly, Vivienne approved.

 

Huh. Interesting. My "too elfy" elf took the "at least they die free" option. Vivienne did not approve and if I recall, essentially called her a hypocrite. ("Well that's great for you since ... yanno ... you ARE a first and didn't have to actually face that end" type thing.)

[Xilizhra]

Seriously, the Vivienne "haters" need to take a pill and relax a bit.  She's a fictional character; stop taking everything so seriously.  Good lord.  It's just a shame that they won't let people have conversations about this character without coming and spewing hate all the time.  This is the third time that a Vivienne thread has gone this way in the past two weeks.  Ugh. 

Do you disagree with me that Vivienne would do what I suggested? If so, why?

[The Baconer]

and? Tervinter also has free mages, I imagine Vivienne is aware of the existence of both of these societies. Obviously she doesn't agree with them. 

 

Vivienne is a true Tevinter. Figuratively speaking.

[AresKeith]

I'm sure you know why that's a very weak response to criticism. The only reason I play BioWare games is because I expect quality writing out of them. Vivienne falls far short of that bar.
 

 

 

 

Vivienne is a true Tevinter. Figuratively speaking.

 

Pffft please she is beyond those rabble, darling 

[The Baconer]

Pffft please she is beyond those rabble, darling 

 

Not at all, she plays the same game. That the competition is much easier to keep under control in Southern Thedas is just a pleasant bonus.

[daveliam]

Do you disagree with me that Vivienne would do what I suggested? If so, why?

 

I think it would depend on the person and the situation.  Her response to that nobleman who was trying to throw shade on Dorian and the Inquisitor seems to indicate that she doesn't see being gay as an issue. 

 

Being as there is not really institutionalized homophobia, the only people who it would matter for would be nobles who aren't reproducing.  Otherwise, being gay isn't really much ammunition in Thedas, right?  That being said, if there were a non-reproducing gay noble who Vivienne was trying to take down and that was the strongest ammunition she had against them, then I suspect she'd play it.  I just can't imagine a situation where that would happen.  I have a feeling that she'd go for something more damning than that.  At least that's my gut on it. 

[Nimlowyn]

Huh. Interesting. My "too elfy" elf took the "at least they die free" option. Vivienne did not approve and if I recall, essentially called her a hypocrite. ("Well that's great for you since ... yanno ... you ARE a first and didn't have to actually face that end" type thing.)

My elf's attitude was essentially, "Yes magic is a gift from the Creators, but it is dangerous and must be respected." She just thinks the Andrastians focus too heavily on fear and favors community accountability over a domineering police force. When she agreed that magic was dangerous but disagreed about Templars as an answer, Vivienne slightly approved and countered (paraphrasing) that "All men are imperfect, but that does't mean they shouldn't try."

 

It appears to me that what is most important to Vivienne is that people recognize that magic has risks. 

[Cantina]

Seriously, the Vivienne "haters" need to take a pill and relax a bit.  She's a fictional character; stop taking everything so seriously.  Good lord.  It's just a shame that they won't let people have conversations about this character without coming and spewing hate all the time.  This is the third time that a Vivienne thread has gone this way in the past two weeks.  Ugh.

 

If your seeking a calm quiet conversation about Vivienne, then perhaps the characters section about this character is the place you should go-oh and don't forget to take your tea and sense of superiority with you.
 

IF my views or anyone elses views on disliking Viv upsets you, then perhaps YOU need to reflect that she is after just a fictional character.