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[thesuperdarkone2]

Vivienne is an elitist snob. She's the only companion who doesn't approve of recruiting Vale's recruits saying "The Inquisition needs gold, not unwashed commoners", she actually DISAPPROVES if you say the people are the most important thing to you in the templar mission, and her greatest fear is irrelevance. How stuck up do you have to be to actually be to have your greatest fear be becoming irrelevant? The fact that she's a hypocrite who didn't even live in the Circles yet thinks the mages didn't have any point to rebel despite the circles actually becoming prisons at the time of Asunder just adds more points why I don't like her.

[Xilizhra]

I think it would depend on the person and the situation.  Her response to that nobleman who was trying to throw shade on Dorian and the Inquisitor seems to indicate that she doesn't see being gay as an issue. 

 

Being as there is not really institutionalized homophobia, the only people who it would matter for would be nobles who aren't reproducing.  Otherwise, being gay isn't really much ammunition in Thedas, right?  That being said, if there were a non-reproducing gay noble who Vivienne was trying to take down and that was the strongest ammunition she had against them, then I suspect she'd play it.  I just can't imagine a situation where that would happen.  I have a feeling that she'd go for something more damning than that.  At least that's my gut on it. 

Basically I'm saying that she's not a gay ally. It was just in her interest to take the heat off of Dorian at that moment.

[Sarielle]

 

IF my views or anyone elses views on disliking Viv upsets you, then perhaps YOU need to reflect that she is after just a fictional character.

 

Upset isn't the right word. Flabbergasts is more like it. When you make posts like, "Vivienne pointed out how some Dalish clans deal with mages, and it isn't a perfect system? I hate her even more now," I'm just like ... What?

 

Hate her voice/politics/looks/personality/writing etc., OK. I can see any of those. But ... that convo? Really? lol That's wildly unreasonable.

[daveliam]

Basically I'm saying that she's not a gay ally. It was just in her interest to take the heat off of Dorian at that moment.

 

Yeah, my comment was a light joke.  Because it was a fun thread at that point.  And Vivienne is an over the top Diva type speaking with a "fabulous" gay guy.  Given that there's not rampant homophobia in Thedas, the concept of a 'gay ally' would be foreign.  I was attempting to enjoy a Vivienne thread.  That was my first mistake, apparently. 

 

That being said, I do enjoy discussing her with you Xil, since you are at least willing to hear both sides of the story with this character. 

[Sarielle]

Vivienne is an elitist snob. She's the only companion who doesn't approve of recruiting Vale's recruits saying "The Inquisition needs gold, not unwashed commoners", she actually DISAPPROVES if you say the people are the most important thing to you in the templar mission, and her greatest fear is irrelevance. How stuck up do you have to be to actually be to have your greatest fear be becoming irrelevant? The fact that she's a hypocrite who didn't even live in the Circles yet thinks the mages didn't have any point to rebel despite the circles actually becoming prisons at the time of Asunder just adds more points why I don't like her.

 

Elitist, yes, snobby, yes, all those things.

 

The bolded point, no. She points out that in most Circles mages could get permission to live off campus (though not all, certainly), so that's not unique to her. If you flat out ask her if mages had reason to rebel, she doesn't say no. She questions the timing of it, coming right after Anders' stunt.

[BabyPuncher]

It doesn't matter if she's a 'gay ally' or not. Writers should not be able to get away with poorly written characters by having them shill gay people. Or really any issue.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, my comment was a light joke.  Because it was a fun thread at that point.  And Vivienne is an over the top Diva type speaking with a "fabulous" gay guy.  Given that there's not rampant homophobia in Thedas, the concept of a 'gay ally' would be foreign.  I was attempting to enjoy a Vivienne thread.  That was my first mistake, apparently. 

 

That being said, I do enjoy discussing her with you Xil, since you are at least willing to hear both sides of the story with this character. 

Question: would you love Vivienne as much if she didn't have the qualities that make her so widely disliked by other people?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Elitist, yes, snobby, yes, all those things.

 

The bolded point, no. She points out that in most Circles mages could get permission to live off campus (though not all, certainly), so that's not unique to her. If you flat out ask her if mages had reason to rebel, she doesn't say no. She questions the timing of it, coming right after Anders' stunt.

The Templars really were making the circles prisons. For starters, mages couldn't leave period. Second, it was illegal for mages to gather in groups, it was illegal for mages to have their fraternity meetings, and it was illegal for the mages to be out from their rooms after a certain hour. That is pretty much the start of a prison. How can she claim the restrictions weren't that bad when she didn't even live in the circles under the new restrictions?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Question: would you love Vivienne as much if she didn't have the qualities that make her so widely disliked by other people?

Well I would still hate her even if she was a radical pro-mage if she still acted elitist and snobbish.

[Sarielle]

The Templars really were making the circles prisons. For starters, mages couldn't leave period. Second, it was illegal for mages to gather in groups, it was illegal for mages to have their fraternity meetings, and it was illegal for the mages to be out from their rooms after a certain hour. That is pretty much the start of a prison. How can she claim the restrictions weren't that bad when she didn't even live in the circles under the new restrictions?

 

That was after Anders, no? And again, she didn't say they didn't have cause. She said their timing sucked.

 

EDIT:

 

 

Well I would still hate her even if she was a radical pro-mage if she still acted elitist and snobbish.

 

Fair enough

[daveliam]

Question: would you love Vivienne as much if she didn't have the qualities that make her so widely disliked by other people?

 

That's a tough question.  Probably?  Maybe not?  I'm not sure, to be honest.  The aspects of her personality that other people dislike, I don't really like either.  I cringe when she's rude to Cole. 

 

But I do find her to be fascinating.  I love that she offers a counterpoint that we don't see from any other mages (even Wynne, who was our most conservative mage to date).  And I really love that she shows her emotional, softer side to an Inquisitor who takes the time to befriend her.  She's a stone wall; an ice queen to those who aren't friends.  But she's actually endearing and likeable to people who she trusts.  And, frankly, when she's a ****** to someone who I don't like <cough, Fiona, cough>, I don't hate it. 

 

I think she's a compelling character.  She's not perfect.  She's unlikeable at times.  But she very interesting and she's not like anyone that we've had as companions before. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

That was after Anders, no? And again, she didn't say they didn't have cause. She said their timing sucked.

 

Listen to her voice when she describes the mages. It's obvious by her tone she considers them children and doesn't think the restrictions were that bad. The mages wouldn't have rebelled if it wasn't obvious Lambert was trying to kill them or turn the spire into another Kirkwall.

[Cantina]

Upset isn't the right word. Flabbergasts is more like it. When you make posts like, "Vivienne pointed out how some Dalish clans deal with mages, and it isn't a perfect system? I hate her even more now," I'm just like ... What?

 

Hate her voice/politics/looks/personality/writing etc., OK. I can see any of those. But ... that convo? Really? lol That's wildly unreasonable.

 

Because its obvious she is digging and I doubt it is simply for more information. I guess her need to know mage this and Templar that continues even with the Dalish.

 

Whenever Vivienne "digs" she tends to be up to something. I doubt her methods are purely to gain knowledge.

[Xilizhra]

That's a tough question.  Probably?  Maybe not?  I'm not sure, to be honest.  The aspects of her personality that other people dislike, I don't really like either.  I cringe when she's rude to Cole. 

 

But I do find her to be fascinating.  I love that she offers a counterpoint that we don't see from any other mages (even Wynne, who was our most conservative mage to date).  And I really love that she shows her emotional, softer side to an Inquisitor who takes the time to befriend her.  She's a stone wall; an ice queen to those who aren't friends.  But she's actually endearing and likeable to people who she trusts.  And, frankly, when she's a ****** to someone who I don't like <cough, Fiona, cough>, I don't hate it. 

 

I think she's a compelling character.  She's not perfect.  She's unlikeable at times.  But she very interesting and she's not like anyone that we've had as companions before. 

I find Fiona a thousand times more likeable than Vivienne could ever be, but that's beside the point. What I'm getting at is that it seems inconsistent to both celebrate her uniqueness and lament the fact that other people will hate it and criticize her for it, because she was designed to be controversial.

[Sarielle]

Question: would you love Vivienne as much if she didn't have the qualities that make her so widely disliked by other people?

 

You weren't asking me, but.

 

It would diminish her for me as a character if she weren't snobby and sharp-tongued and blunt when she thinks it's necessary, yes. I don't honestly have strong feelings on pro vs. anti-Circle either way, so that bit doesn't matter -- but the way she approaches analyzing it, does. Question her conclusions all you like, but it's obvious she has at least considered all the angles -- I don't ever feel like you take her off guard.

 

RL me would respect her telling it like it is and her verbal sparring, and hate her focus on status/her being mean to people like Blackwall and Cole unprovoked.

 

I mean, I loved Joffrey's character in Game of Thrones, and especially as portrayed in the show. I would smother him in his sleep if given half a chance IRL, lol. For me at least, liking a character and liking them as a person aren't necessarily the same thing.

[BabyPuncher]

I think some people here might be kind of missing the point.

 

Vivienne shouldn't be disliked because she's a powerful, manipulative bitchy snob. She should be disliked because she isn't manipulative or powerful. Because the narrative tries to build up her character as a master of this sort of thing, but instead she's completely useless. Her 'machinations' are sleeping her way to top and moving furniture around. It's the same as when a book gushes over how great of a military genius a character is, who then goes on to implementing the tactics of a five year old.

 

If Vivienne was manipulative and powerful AND the Inquisitor was given intelligent, well written dialogue to counter her and put her in her place if the player so chooses (and perhaps more than dialogue), she could have been a great character. Obviously, I would have still very much disliked her on a personal level, but that's irrelevant.

[Sarielle]

Because its obvious she is digging and I doubt it is simply for more information. I guess her need to know mage this and Templar that continues even with the Dalish.

 

Whenever Vivienne "digs" she tends to be up to something. I doubt her methods are purely to gain knowledge.

 

I honestly don't have any idea what you're trying to get at here. What do you mean by "digging"? If not digging for info, what? Trying to hurt the Inquisitor's feelings?

 

If she's "up to" anything, it's reminding the Inquisitor that even Dalish regulate mages to a degree, and their solution isn't all rainbows and sunshine, either.

[Sarielle]

I think some people here might be kind of missing the point.

 

Vivienne shouldn't be disliked because she's a powerful, manipulative bitchy snob. She should be disliked because she isn't manipulative or powerful. Because the narrative tries to build up her character as a master of this sort of thing, but instead she's completely useless. Her 'machinations' are sleeping her way to top and moving furniture around. It's the same as when a book gushes over how great of a military genius a character is, who then goes on to implementing the tactics of a five year old.

 

If Vivienne was manipulative and powerful AND the Inquisitor was given intelligent, well written dialogue to counter her and put her in her place if the player so chooses, she could have been a great character. Obviously, I would have still very much disliked her on a personal level, but that's irrelevant.

 

Remind me, you didn't think banter counted as character development and you felt like they built her up too much pre-release for what you got, right?

 

As for machinations -- I'd argue catching a Duke's fancy requires some ... uh, machining? lol ("Nobody winds up at court, my dear. It takes a great deal of effort to arrive there.") And we know she faked a letter so the guy at her salon would get mad and challenge you as part of a revenge plot.

 

Other than that, we don't see her interacting with The Game directly much, I agree. Her part in the Winter Palace portion was pretty disappointing, but I don't necessarily see another real reason for us to see it (EDIT: her participating in The Game, that is). She managed to make First Enchanter and keep a wing in a duke's estate. She can use magic against a noble in public and not see any backlash. She can't suck at it, at least.

 

Would I be right in saying that a lot of your disappointment comes from what you read of her before vs. what you saw in-game?

[daveliam]

I find Fiona a thousand times more likeable than Vivienne could ever be, but that's beside the point. What I'm getting at is that it seems inconsistent to both celebrate her uniqueness and lament the fact that other people will hate it and criticize her for it, because she was designed to be controversial.

 

Honestly, I had a whole thing typed, but frankly, it's not really worth it.  You know that I am more than willing to talk about this character (both the positives and negatives) with people who are actually willing to have that discussion.  I just wish that someone would create a 'hate thread' for her so that all of this can live there and the rest of us who actually want to delve into the character can do so without the vitriol being lobbied about. 

[Xilizhra]

Honestly, I had a whole thing typed, but frankly, it's not really worth it.  You know that I am more than willing to talk about this character (both the positives and negatives) with people who are actually willing to have that discussion.  I just wish that someone would create a 'hate thread' for her so that all of this can live there and the rest of us who actually want to delve into the character can do so without the vitriol being lobbied about. 

Do you still have it? I'd be interested in reading it.

[daveliam]

Do you still have it? I'd be interested in reading it.

 

Nah, I nuked it.  Select all and backspace. 

[Sarielle]

Listen to her voice when she describes the mages. It's obvious by her tone she considers them children and doesn't think the restrictions were that bad. The mages wouldn't have rebelled if it wasn't obvious Lambert was trying to kill them or turn the spire into another Kirkwall.

 

Oops, read right over this.

 

Yes, she thinks they were stupid for rebelling when they did, and it comes through in her voice. That said, I (personal opinion) do think she feels rebelling ultimately made it worse for mages -- that what could have been fixed without bloodshed (political machinations) got both the rebels AND a lot of Tranquil, apprentices and mages who were content in the Circle killed.

 

I don't think it means she wasn't sympathetic, because otherwise when you asked if the mages had cause to rebel, she'd have just said No. And she didn't do that.

 

But see, this is the kinda debate that's actually fun to have!

[mikeymoonshine]

I think some people here might be kind of missing the point.

 

Vivienne shouldn't be disliked because she's a powerful, manipulative bitchy snob. She should be disliked because she isn't manipulative or powerful. Because the narrative tries to build up her character as a master of this sort of thing, but instead she's completely useless. Her 'machinations' are sleeping her way to top and moving furniture around. It's the same as when a book gushes over how great of a military genius a character is, who then goes on to implementing the tactics of a five year old.

 

Foolishly you set your standards for her being a "well written character" or whatever with your "show not tell" argument and those standards were met. You were given several examples of what you asked for and you completely ignored them. 

 

Vivienne is a little underdeveloped yes, as are several of the companions but one should not take one's personal opinion into the realm of objectivity unless one is planning to wipe the floor with one's opposition. 

[BabyPuncher]

Would I be right in saying that a lot of your disappointment comes from what you read of her before vs. what you saw in-game?

 

Ehh. Maybe a bit, but not really. You have to do a lot of things right to have a deliberately unlikeable character come off as well written.

 

You'll notice that, pretty much across the board, RPG companions are much more good in modern games than they were years ago, where having a mix of good and evil characters was more the norm. Nowadays, evil companions are very very much the minority. Nearly all games have companions that are neutral at worst.

 

As for machinations -- I'd argue catching a Duke's fancy requires some ... uh, machining? lol ("Nobody winds up at court, my dear. It takes a great deal of effort to arrive there.") And we know she faked a letter so the guy at her salon would get mad and challenge you as part of a revenge plot.

 

He's an old fart and she's a young and moderately attractive woman. I wouldn't call that a display of any expertise. And information doesn't do much good if players such as myself never see it. Besides, didn't she do it response to a petty insult?

[Sarielle]

Ehh. Maybe a bit, but not really. You have to do a lot of things right to have a deliberately unlikeable character come off as well written.

 

You'll notice that, pretty much across the board, RPG companions are much more good in modern games than they were years ago, where having a mix of good and evil characters was more the norm. Nowadays, evil companions are very very much the minority. Nearly all games have companions that are neutral at worst.

 

 

 

He's an old fart and she's a young and moderately attractive woman. I wouldn't call that a display of any expertise.

 

 

@Your first point: What things specifically needed to be done that weren't? I dunno, I think the standards are pretty much the same for both. The lack of evil companions in RPGs doesn't make you right -- it makes current RPGers less imaginative and more prone to self-insert, imo, lol.

 

@Your second point: Touche.

 

Oop, you edited on me. I don't think there's anything wrong with "hiding" information in party banter. I think not taking a character out with you and claiming they aren't developed, is wrong. It might have been a petty insult, but it was a pretty darn ugly one. Certainly not deserving of trying to get him killed, though.