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[Sarielle]

 

Vivienne's problem is bad writing for the Inquisitor.

 

The inability to talk back does seem to be a recurring criticism of her, when it isn't really a reflection of her own character at all.

 

But as has been pointed out, she's far from the only character you don't get to argue with/the only character who gets the last word in on the PC.

 

 

The problem exists with choices that echo real-world ideologies and themes, and with player characters who are infused with the values of their players to some degree - which is almost unavoidable unless you make a conscious effort to play against what comes naturally to you. If one option of two ideologically opposed options has a good outcome and the other one a bad outcome, the story acquires an ideological voice of its own, telling, by implication, those players who made the "wrong" decision that the fundament of their decision-making is wrong. Everyone hates that. It doesn't even matter if I roleplay a character who isn't like me. The mere fact that I can't get a good result with a character who has a similar value hierarchy as I have, while those opposing it can get a good outcome, will mean that I feel the story, the writers are against me.

In essence, this means that the the story should avoid having its own voice and making one side the right one, exactly in the most passionately debated issues of the fictional world, unless the writers are really, really sure they want their story to take a side in the debate, in which case they'll have to live with the consequences.

 

I ... totally disagree. Mostly because I don't think RL me has all the answers, nor that my own values don't come with their own problems. I don't want to be pandered to.

 

 

This.

 

And something other than standing there like a petulant child. Whether asking her to leave or remarking on her own childishness. Being told to run along adn then having my character meekly do that like he/she's been outplayed is absurd.

 

I can definitely agree you should be able to give her das boot in this instance. But again, that's a reflection of the player character, not her character. Whoever wrote the player character may have done a poor job offering options, but that's not about Vivienne herself.

[Sarielle]

The problem is that the writers want to show how she's a master manipulator, but they don't have the time or skill to actual demonstrate her manipulation abilities, so they just take away your agency to show off "look how she showed you!  she's such a master manipulator!" nonsense.

 

Except I think showing she's a good manipulator is done other ways. I don't think that was even the point of that scene.

 

EDIT: Doh, was trying to edit my other post. Oh well.

[LobselVith8]

The inability to talk back does seem to be a recurring criticism of her, when it isn't really a reflection of her own character at all.

 

But as has been pointed out, she's far from the only character you don't get to argue with/the only character who gets the last word in on the PC.

 

I think that criticism has more to do with Vivienne coming across as someone who is petty instead of someone who is cunning, like the scene where she arranges the furniture simply to spite the Inquisitor.

 

I can definitely agree you should be able to give her das boot in this instance. But again, that's a reflection of the player character, not her character. Whoever wrote the player character may have done a poor job offering options, but that's not about Vivienne herself.

 

The issue for some people is that she's meant to be a master of the Game, and yet she pulls a rather childish stunt like this simply because the main character has different ideological views than she does. Being petulant to the person with the authority to remove her from the Inquisition, or even make her tranquil, doesn't help convey that Vivienne is supposed to be some cunning political force to be reckoned with. Vivienne is only protected due to the Plot, since pulling a stunt like this could have easily dissolved the alliance with the Circle.

[daveliam]

I think that criticism has more to do with Vivienne coming across as someone who is petty instead of someone who is cunning, like the scene where she arranges the furniture simply to spite the Inquisitor.

 

 

The issue for some people is that she's meant to be a master of the Game, and yet she pulls a rather childish stunt like this simply because the main character has different ideological views than she does. Being petulant to the person with the authority to remove her from the Inquisition, or even make her tranquil, doesn't help convey that Vivienne is supposed to be some cunning political force to be reckoned with. Vivienne is only protected due to the Plot, since pulling a stunt like this could have easily dissolved the alliance with the Circle.

 

Again, like Sarielle stated, your issue isn't with Vivienne, it's with the Inquisitor and how s/he was portrayed.  Vivienne took a situation with a political rival and successfully determined that she could do that to you without having the consequences that you stated.  You are annoyed that the writers didn't give you more choices.  She bested the Inquisitor in that moment and you wanted a way to best her.  I can understand that, but call it what it is.  You keep creating these hypothetical situations ("Well I could have made her tranquil") as if that has any validity in this situation.  It's like saying, "Well Cassandra isn't really a great warrior because, even though she killed a dragon, it could have eaten her."  The reality is that, if you get Vivienne's disapproval low enough to get that scene, she's already losing The Game with you.  The Inquisitor is going to win in the long run, so she plays a petty move specifically to demonstrate that she is willing to openly challenge you.  And she wins in that moment.  (And that's one of the reasons why it's one of the very few pieces of evidence that her detractors can't get over)  Your issue isn't with Vivienne, it's with Mary for allowing Vivienne to win that moment. 

[Heidirs]

I think that criticism has more to do with Vivienne coming across as someone who is petty instead of someone who is cunning, like the scene where she arranges the furniture simply to spite the Inquisitor.

 

I do have to agree that Vivienne comes across as more petty than cunning. Rearranging my furniture doesn't help this image. Neither does her treatment of the Marquis. Yes, he made a racist remark against her... but her response is to cause his death for it? That seems like an extreme overreaction on her part.

 

If I could see Vivienne as cunning, I'd appreciate her character a lot more. Instead, she just seems wrapped up her in her own issues to which she overreacts. Hardly the image of a cunning, powerful political player.

 

 

[Heidirs]

I if you get Vivienne's disapproval low enough to get that scene, she's already losing The Game with you.  The Inquisitor is going to win in the long run, so she plays a petty move specifically to demonstrate that she is willing to openly challenge you.  And she wins in that moment.  

 

That makes that scene make more sense. Though it still feels like someone throwing an tantrum, to me, than a cunning move. I guess the way she goes about it is smart, but because I don't like her she feels she has to make some kind of power play? I don't get it... Maybe it just has to do with my low view of The Game.

 

EDITED

[daveliam]

I do have to agree that Vivienne comes across as more petty than cunning. Rearranging my furniture doesn't help this image. Neither does her treatment of the Marquis. Yes, he made a racist remark against her... but her response is to cause his death for it? That seems like an extreme overreaction on her part.

 

If I could see Vivienne as cunning, I'd appreciate her character a lot more. Instead, she just seems wrapped up her in her own issues to which she overreacts. Hardly the image of a cunning, powerful political player.

 

If Alphonse is dead, it's because your Inquisitor allowed it.  You can't hate on her for killing a man for insulting her when your Inquisitor has to do the exact same thing in order for him to die. 

 

You have numerous pieces of evidence that she can play The Game:

• She turns her love affair with Bastien into a position of power and influence in the Orlesian Court, including position as Court Enchanter
• She brings about the fall of a political rival by manipulating a situation where he insults the Inquisition so that she can come to your aid, thus solidifying an alliance with an up and coming political power
• She manages to turn the loss of her lover and greatest patron into another political victory by including his family in the planning of his funeral, thus securing political allies (the Grand Clerics and the Council of Heralds) for both herself and the Inquisition
• She does that move with the furniture; again, not her strongest move, but if you consider the motivation that I mentioned, it shows that she's still playing The Game by demonstrating to a political rival that she's not going to be walked over lightly

There's evidence in the game that answers what you are asking for, but you continue to dismiss it.  And no one has yet been able to describe a situation that would have made sense in the plot of the game where she could demonstrate her political savvy more effectively, outside of the missed opportunity at the Winter Palace.

 

That makes that scene make a little bit more sense. Though it still a bit like someone throwing an tantrum, to me, than a cunning move. Maybe it just has to do with my low view of The Game.

 

It's really locked into two things, I think:  your opinion on the Mage-Templar conflict and your opinion on The Game.  If you are Anti-Circle and dislike The Game, then it stands to reason that you won't like Vivienne.  I'm fairly neutral on both (Pro-Mage, but also pro Circle reform and interested in The Game a bit), so I'm able to look at Vivienne with a much less tinted view, I think.  I can understand why people feel the other way about her, but it just boggles my mind that people can't take even a slightly objective view on her. 

[LobselVith8]

Again, like Sarielle stated, your issue isn't with Vivienne, it's with the Inquisitor and how s/he was portrayed.  Vivienne took a situation with a political rival and successfully determined that she could do that to you without having the consequences that you stated.  You are annoyed that the writers didn't give you more choices.  She bested the Inquisitor in that moment and you wanted a way to best her.

 

Except it is with Vivienne, because she doesn't come as a master manipulator by intentionally provoking the Inquisitor in such a manner that could have lead to her getting ousted from Skyhold, to the dissolution of the alliance between the Inquisition and the Circle, or something worse. You're intentionally ignoring my point that Vivienne pulling this stunt could have cost her the alliance that she has, and the only reason there are no negative consequences as a result of this is because the Plot prevents it. If you prove to be untrustworthy to the leader of the Inquisition, then it can cost you. That's the simple point you refuse to acknowledge in your post.

 

I can understand that, but call it what it is.  You keep creating these hypothetical situations ("Well I could have made her tranquil") as if that has any validity in this situation.

 

The point is that Vivienne antagonizing the Inquisitor is the opposite of what a master manipulator would do, assuming that the person wants to keep their alliance with the Inquisition intact. A master manipulator who wants to maintain her alliance with the Inquisition wouldn't pull a childish stunt that could have easily cost her everything. If you're supposed to be a master of the Game, then you shouldn't throw a tantrum when you don't get your way.

 

It's like saying, "Well Cassandra isn't really a great warrior because, even though she killed a dragon, it could have eaten her."

 

That retort makes no sense.

 

The reality is that, if you get Vivienne's disapproval low enough to get that scene, she's already losing The Game with you.  The Inquisitor is going to win in the long run, so she plays a petty move specifically to demonstrate that she is willing to openly challenge you.  And she wins in that moment.  (And that's one of the reasons why it's one of the very few pieces of evidence that her detractors can't get over)  Your issue isn't with Vivienne, it's with Mary for allowing Vivienne to win that moment. 

 

I reality is that, instead of accepting that people are criticizing Vivienne for not coming across as a manipulator in that scene (and how it could have cost her everything had it not been for the Plot), you're attacking people for criticizing how Vivienne comes across in the scene.

[Jaquio]

It's really locked into two things, I think:  your opinion on the Mage-Templar conflict and your opinion on The Game.  If you are Anti-Circle and dislike The Game, then it stands to reason that you won't like Vivienne.  I'm fairly neutral on both (Pro-Mage, but also pro Circle reform and interested in The Game a bit), so I'm able to look at Vivienne with a much less tinted view, I think.  I can understand why people feel the other way about her, but it just boggles my mind that people can't take even a slightly objective view on her. 

 

General dissatisfaction with the forced personality of the Inquisitor rather than anything specifically about Vivienne is my take on it.  I don't like Vivienne.  If you do, that's great.  I don't.  But the difference is that in previous games you could make decisions that reflect on those feelings.

 

Some people also just like to roleplay jerks, and in DAI, you're really shoehorned into a "passive do-gooder" role, despite how you want to play.

 

I mean, in DA2, in a single playthrough you might stab Anders in the back, give Fenris back to his slaveowner and give Isabela to the Arishok.  Lord knows I wouldn't, but if you wanted to roleplay some edgelord, so be it.  Because it's a role playing game.

 

In DAI, I can't even tell Vivienne to go home. 

[Sarielle]

I think that criticism has more to do with Vivienne coming across as someone who is petty instead of someone who is cunning, like the scene where she arranges the furniture simply to spite the Inquisitor.

 

 

The issue for some people is that she's meant to be a master of the Game, and yet she pulls a rather childish stunt like this simply because the main character has different ideological views than she does. Being petulant to the person with the authority to remove her from the Inquisition, or even make her tranquil, doesn't help convey that Vivienne is supposed to be some cunning political force to be reckoned with. Vivienne is only protected due to the Plot, since pulling a stunt like this could have easily dissolved the alliance with the Circle.

 

Well ... I agree that it was childish and petty. It was the worst she dared to do to the Inquisitor, which I think reinforces how powerful the Inquisitor is -- chance to tell her off or no. She acts out when she actually feels powerless.

 

If, however, the Inquisitor would consider Tranquilizing (lolz) her over moving furniture, that speaks to something evil and unstable in the Quiz, not Viv. I mean ... good lord.
 

 

I do have to agree that Vivienne comes across as more petty than cunning. Rearranging my furniture doesn't help this image. Neither does her treatment of the Marquis. Yes, he made a racist remark against her... but her response is to cause his death for it? That seems like an extreme overreaction on her part.

 

On one hand I agree. On the other, from what we can tell of the game you suffer no challenges to your power/reputation, as long as you can remove said challenge cleverly. While I think it's deplorable, I don't think it's out of line with how The Game is played.

 

 

 in DAI, you're really shoehorned into a "passive do-gooder" role, despite how you want to play. -snip-

 

In DAI, I can't even tell Vivienne to go home. 

 

Some more cruel-but-sensible (IE, not chaotic stupid) choices would have been good, as well as more options to send characters home. I do enjoy that most of the moral dilemmas were in the grey area vs. the typical "move heaven and hell to save puppy, give puppy a biscuit but don't do anything else, or kill puppy for no reason" choices.
 

[daveliam]

<snip>

 

And round and round we go.  I don't know about you, but I need dramamine, so I'm getting off of this merry-go-round.  Enjoy going in circles. 

 

General dissatisfaction with the forced personality of the Inquisitor rather than anything specifically about Vivienne is my take on it.  I don't like Vivienne.  If you do, that's great.  I don't.  But the difference is that in previous games you could make decisions that reflect on those feelings.

 

And that part I understand.  I also wish that there were more options for an Inquisitor, but I recognize that my dissatisfaction with the lack of options for the Inquisitor doesn't reflect on the other characters.  Honestly, I think it mostly is because people are name calling her because they didn't like that she made them look foolish.  Which is exactly what they then critique her character for doing.  And then, ironically, call her a hypocrite for it.

[Ryzaki]

Well ... I agree that it was childish and petty. It was the worst she dared to do to the Inquisitor, which I think reinforces how powerful the Inquisitor is -- chance to tell her off or no. She acts out when she actually feels powerless.

 

If, however, the Inquisitor would consider Tranquilizing (lolz) her over moving furniture, that speaks to something evil and unstable in the Quiz, not Viv. I mean ... good lord

 

Agreed. Lashing out at her is exactly what I didn't want my Quizzy to do. A snide smile and remark is pretty much all I wanted. But acting like a loon was no.

[esper]

If a character has to derail another character just to look smart that character is badly written (and is not smart btw). So I choose to belive that bioware wanted her to be petty rather than cunning, because she sure wasn't cunning in that scene.

 

My dalish elf who has no sense of decorating or privacy don't get why moving funiture is an insult and her walking away head scratching ís her wondering what limit had been tested, again.

 

It is even better since that scene is the first (If we don't count reaction to Haven)  I get in Skyhold so the chance are that my character hasn't even started decorating herself.

 

It is also why Vivienne is bad at the game. If she was any good at the game, she would try to come across as sort of 'we can be friends even if we disagree politically' then she would have a chance of actually getting my character to take her along and could prepare to undermine my PC and have a shot at being divine.

 

Instead when she asked for a wyvern heart my character said 'Yes' to play nice to Vivienne and then promptly tossed her quest into the never finished quest bunk, which meant Vivienne can't even take advantage of Bastians dead.

 

All just because she had made sure that my dalish didn't trust her on any level, politically as well as personally and actually suspected Vivienne of wanting to poison someone (Perhaps even my pc herself) and thus didn't wanted her to give her a chance.

[Sarielle]

Agreed. Lashing out at her is exactly what I didn't want my Quizzy to do. A snide smile and remark is pretty much all I wanted. But acting like a loon was no.

 

I just had to pretend my Inquisitor was having a really crappy day already and that was just the icing on the cake, so to speak.

[Melca36]

Is it true Vivienne stays outside of Skyhold if you never talk to her when you get there?

[Jaquio]

Some more cruel-but-sensible (IE, not chaotic stupid) choices would have been good, as well as more options to send characters home. I do enjoy that most of the moral dilemmas were in the grey area vs. the typical "move heaven and hell to save puppy, give puppy a biscuit but don't do anything else, or kill puppy for no reason" choices.
 

 

I tended to prefer some of the earlier games' "all options are awful, it's time for you to examine which is less awful" choices.  The Arl of Redcliffe quest (ignoring the "let's run to the Circle and fix it all" convenience) is my favorite:  Choose between a) a blood magic ritual or b ) killing a child with his mother present.

 

It really makes you think about your character's values.

 

And that part I understand.  I also wish that there were more options for an Inquisitor, but I recognize that my dissatisfaction with the lack of options for the Inquisitor doesn't reflect on the other characters.  Honestly, I think it mostly is because people are name calling her because they didn't like that she made them look foolish.  Which is exactly what they then critique her character for doing.  And then, ironically, call her a hypocrite for it.

 

I think generally people don't like Vivienne, and then get frustrated that they have no outlet for it, and think "man I hate this character so much" and then complain online because they have no recourse in game.

 

But really most of the problems are with the Quiz's voice.  It's not just with characters you have to endure in a set way like Vivienne (or Bianca, Leliana and a few others, for that matter), it's an all around problem with the Quiz.

 

I usually play humans, but in my third playthrough I thought I'd mix it up and play as Dalish.  And I was terribly disappointed with how little of the dialogue had changed, and how many weird conversations I was having that were bizarre for my Dalish mage to be having.  Having discussions about Circles and the Chantry, I was floundering because none of the options made sense for my character to be saying.

[daveliam]

<snip>

 

Agreed.  I.O.U. one "like".  I'm out again. 

[Boost32]

If Alphonse is dead, it's because your Inquisitor allowed it.  You can't hate on her for killing a man for insulting her when your Inquisitor has to do the exact same thing in order for him to die. 
 
You have numerous pieces of evidence that she can play The Game:

• She turns her love affair with Bastien into a position of power and influence in the Orlesian Court, including position as Court Enchanter
• She brings about the fall of a political rival by manipulating a situation where he insults the Inquisition so that she can come to your aid, thus solidifying an alliance with an up and coming political power
• She manages to turn the loss of her lover and greatest patron into another political victory by including his family in the planning of his funeral, thus securing political allies (the Grand Clerics and the Council of Heralds) for both herself and the Inquisition
• She does that move with the furniture; again, not her strongest move, but if you consider the motivation that I mentioned, it shows that she's still playing The Game by demonstrating to a political rival that she's not going to be walked over lightly

There's evidence in the game that answers what you are asking for, but you continue to dismiss it.  And no one has yet been able to describe a situation that would have made sense in the plot of the game where she could demonstrate her political savvy more effectively, outside of the missed opportunity at the Winter Palace.

You forgot that she use her influence to make herself a canditate for the Sunburst throne and sheshe can be the first mage Divine. Its shown in the game she is good at The Game.

Very different from Leliana, who people says she is good, but its never shown, I dont know any of her achievements at The Game, besides being betrayed by Majorlaine.

[Heidirs]

If Alphonse is dead, it's because your Inquisitor allowed it.  You can't hate on her for killing a man for insulting her when your Inquisitor has to do the exact same thing in order for him to die. 

 

If your Inquisitor tells her to let the Marquis go, you can ask her what will become of him later. She'll say he'll likely be disowned by his family and he'll throw himself into the war in an attempt to prove himself which will likely end in his death. She set it up so that either way he dies. 

 

You have numerous pieces of evidence that she can play The Game:

• She turns her love affair with Bastien into a position of power and influence in the Orlesian Court, including position as Court Enchanter
• She brings about the fall of a political rival by manipulating a situation where he insults the Inquisition so that she can come to your aid, thus solidifying an alliance with an up and coming political power
• She manages to turn the loss of her lover and greatest patron into another political victory by including his family in the planning of his funeral, thus securing political allies (the Grand Clerics and the Council of Heralds) for both herself and the Inquisition
• She does that move with the furniture; again, not her strongest move, but if you consider the motivation that I mentioned, it shows that she's still playing The Game by demonstrating to a political rival that she's not going to be walked over lightly

• I don't feel like it takes someone of high intelligence or cunning to know that sleeping with someone of high status will get you high status in return. Plus, the way Vivienne tells it, they fell in love. I'm not sure how much of it was her using him to get what she wanted or what she wanted coming as a result of their relationship.
• She does manipulate that scene. I can give her props for that, especially since as a player, I fell for it. Though, I still feel her actions toward the Marquis were over-reactive and tantrum-ish.  
• I would have thought including family members was standard for a funeral, and I would have thought his family would have already been allies toward her. As for the Inquisition - I haven't seen that scene so I don't know what comes out of it if anything. I'm afraid I don't have the information needed to judge that.
• What I said earlier, partial props. She is still playing the game, though it still seems childish to me.

 

There's evidence in the game that answers what you are asking for, but you continue to dismiss it.  And no one has yet been able to describe a situation that would have made sense in the plot of the game where she could demonstrate her political savvy more effectively, outside of the missed opportunity at the Winter Palace.

 

I'm not trying to dismiss the evidence you and others have put forward, I'm trying to make sense of it. Some see her as cunning. I have trouble seeing her that way. That doesn't mean I'm "dismissing" what you've put forth. I'm trying to engage in a discussion so I can understand Vivienne's character better in the hopes of appreciating her even if I never like her. As I've said in a previous post, I don't currently see Vivienne as a character worth recruiting, and I don't like that I have that view. I'm trying to put forth aspects of her character I don't care for with the purpose of hearing the other side of things. If I keep "arguing" it's because I'm still willing to listen to what others have to say, that's all.

 

It's really locked into two things, I think:  your opinion on the Mage-Templar conflict and your opinion on The Game.  If you are Anti-Circle and dislike The Game, then it stands to reason that you won't like Vivienne.  I'm fairly neutral on both (Pro-Mage, but also pro Circle reform and interested in The Game a bit), so I'm able to look at Vivienne with a much less tinted view, I think.  I can understand why people feel the other way about her, but it just boggles my mind that people can't take even a slightly objective view on her. 

 

I am anti-Circle, but I actually really liked hearing what Vivienne had to say on that front. I found her viewpoints really interesting, and that conversation is one of the only things I find a purpose in recruiting her for. That said, I don't like The Game, and find it pretty senseless and petty. That viewpoint isn't going to chance, so perhaps it's not possible for me to appreciate Vivienne on that front.

 

[Ryzaki]

I just had to pretend my Inquisitor was having a really crappy day already and that was just the icing on the cake, so to speak.

 

Yeah I tended to play the stoic ice king/queens so that only really fit my ditzy dalish elf and she wouldn't have cared enough to bring it up in the first place. Her reaction to Vivienne moving furniture would've been "wait? That's not a normal occurance?"

[Sarielle]

So random question, does she actually kill the marquis if you ask her to? I've never picked that option. Even my harsher characters just dismissed him as not being worth their time (which ... damn, the way she dresses him down, I think he probably would rather have been killed, lol).

[Heidirs]

You forgot that she use her influence to make herself a canditate for the Sunburst throne and sheshe can be the first mage Divine. Its shown in the game she is good at The Game.

 

I'm still scratching my head over that. There's absolutely no discussion whatsoever of the possibly of her being Divine (at least not in my playthrough) and then suddenly, she is? Maybe some can take that as evidence of her being a master of The Game, but... I have trouble accepting that she just got there without explanation how. Telling me how might help me appreciate her character. Instead, it just kind of falls flat.

[Heidirs]

So random question, does she actually kill the marquis if you ask her to? I've never picked that option. Even my harsher characters just dismissed him as not being worth their time (which ... damn, the way she dresses him down, I think he probably would rather have been killed, lol).

 

Yeah, she kills him.

[Ryzaki]

So random question, does she actually kill the marquis if you ask her to? I've never picked that option. Even my harsher characters just dismissed him as not being worth their time (which ... damn, the way she dresses him down, I think he probably would rather have been killed, lol).

 

Yeah she does. Straight up shatters him.

[daveliam]

 

If your Inquisitor tells her to let the Marquis go, you can ask her what will become of him later. She'll say he'll likely be disowned by his family and he'll throw himself into the war in an attempt to prove himself which will likely end in his death. She set it up so that either way he dies.

 

You can't hold her accountable for that.  If his family disowns him and banishes him to the front lines of the war because of a political faux pas, that's not on her.  She didn't kill him.  She scolded him, humiliated him, and sent him away.  The only way that she directly kills him is if the Inquisitor tells her to. 

 

• I don't feel like it takes someone of high intelligence or cunning to know that sleeping with someone of high status will get you high status in return. Plus, the way Vivienne tells it, they fell in love. I'm not sure how much of it was her using him to get what she wanted or what she wanted coming as a result of their relationship.
• She does manipulate that scene. I can give her props for that, especially since as a player, I fell for it. Though, I still feel her actions toward the Marquis were over-reactive and tantrum-ish.  
• I would have thought including family members was standard for a funeral, and I would have thought his family would have already been allies toward her. As for the Inquisition - I haven't seen that scene so I don't know what comes out of it if anything. I'm afraid I don't have the information needed to judge that.
• What I said earlier, partial props. She is still playing the game, though it still seems childish to me.

 

To point one, you should really read some of the stories of real life courtesians and royal mistresses then.  The vast majority of them were slept with, impregnated, and then sent away from court with a stipend, losing any chance at anything further.  Only a very few of them were able to successfully maneuver that into something long-lasting and sustainable.  And even fewer of those women were able to get positions of power out of it.  Really interesting, and sad in many cases, stories. 

With regard to the third point, she does have a warm relationship with the family already, but, at that point, it's critical for her to secure that relationship directly.  As his mistress and in the position that she was in, it's clear that it's up to her to arrange the funeral.  We've not seen anything else with regard to what the norm is, so we can't really speak to it.  But she takes a situation that could have been the end of her career and turns it into another political success because she understands people and can read them well.  She specifically speaks to what both his sister and son would want and starts attending to it.  It's clear evidence that she's good at that stuff. 

 

I'm not trying to dismiss the evidence you and others have put forward, I'm trying to make sense of it. Some see her as cunning. I have trouble seeing her that way. That doesn't mean I'm "dismissing" what you've put forth. I'm trying to engage in a discussion so I can understand Vivienne's character better in the hopes of appreciating her even if I never like her. As I've said in a previous post, I don't currently see Vivienne as a character worth recruiting, and I don't like that I have that view. I'm trying to put forth aspects of her character I don't care for with the purpose of hearing the other side of things. If I keep "arguing" it's because I'm still willing to listen to what others have to say, that's all.

 

I feel like this last message and the one prior from you made that clearer.  I am a big fan of debating grey issues.  But if I feel that the other side isn't giving me anything, then to me, if feels like I'm being dismissed.  I don't need someone to even agree with me.  I'm happy with, like you said in the last message, "I never thought of it that way.  That might be true.  I'm not convinced still, but it's a good point."  But if all I get is people saying, "Nope.  Wrong.  Nope", then it's not worth it anymore on my end.  Unfortunately, the Vivienne "haters", in my experience, almost all fall in the latter category with only a half dozen exceptions or so. 

 

 

So random question, does she actually kill the marquis if you ask her to? I've never picked that option. Even my harsher characters just dismissed him as not being worth their time (which ... damn, the way she dresses him down, I think he probably would rather have been killed, lol).

 

Yep.  She does.  The Inquisitor says, "He insulted my honor so he must die' and then she kills him.  Hence the "Lawful Neutral" thing.