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[Sarielle]

Yeah she does. Straight up shatters him.

 

Damn. Brutal.

 

Well then that's even more evidence she's good at the game imo. Mage kills a noble at a swanky party she hosts and it's totally not a thing.

[daveliam]

I'm still scratching my head over that. There's absolutely no discussion whatsoever of the possibly of her being Divine (at least not in my playthrough) and then suddenly, she is? Maybe some can take that as evidence of her being a master of The Game, but... I have trouble accepting that she just got there without explanation how. Telling me how might help me appreciate her character. Instead, it just comes across as weak writing (surprise! Vivienne's Divine! wha!?!?!).

 

The Divine conversation happens every playthrough for me.  You can support either Leliana (for disapproval) or Cassandra (for approval) or suggest her, in which she feigns surprise, but then agrees to pursue it, at which point you can formerly support her in that dialogue and at the War Table.  Is that scene linked to her approval?  Or do people miss it because they don't talk with her enough.

 

Also, after she brings Bastien's sister and son to a visit to Skyhold, Josephine makes a comment about how she thinks that the timing of their visit is "curious" because of the Divine talks and that she wonders what Vivienne is planning. 

[Personette]

"Oh, you think this furniture would look nice in my room? Well, if it's good enough for me then it's good enough for you. Let's switch!" 

 

Would have been a nice way to get a unique piece of furniture. Plus, I like Vivienne's furniture a lot, and would actually WANT the switch. 

FOR EXAMPLE. 

[Sarielle]

"Oh, you think this furniture would look nice in my room? Well, if it's good enough for me then it's good enough for you. Let's switch!" 

 

Would have been a nice way to get a unique piece of furniture. Plus, I like Vivienne's furniture a lot, and would actually WANT the switch. 

FOR EXAMPLE. 

 

She does have great furniture

[Jaquio]

Yeah she does. Straight up shatters him.

 

I've always been curious about that from a legal/lore standpoint.  While I get that she's "outplayed" him by getting him to threaten the Inquisitor, I can't imagine that the powers that be in Orlais are supportive of mages killing nobles via magic in neither a legal court nor in the framework of an official duel.  I don't profess to be the expert in these lore issues, and if someone can conclusively verify one way or the other, that would be helpful.  But it just seems like the Chantry and the Court wouldn't be all too pleased.

[Boost32]

I've always been curious about that from a legal/lore standpoint.  While I get that she's "outplayed" him by getting him to threaten the Inquisitor, I can't imagine that the powers that be in Orlais are supportive of mages killing nobles via magic in neither a legal court nor in the framework of an official duel.  I don't profess to be the expert in these lore issues, and if someone can conclusively verify one way or the other, that would be helpful.  But it just seems like the Chantry and the Court wouldn't be all too pleased.

Duke Prosper allows you to kill a noble who insulted Hawke, so I think if someone insults one of your guest at your place, you can legally kill this person if your guest want it.

[Wulfram]

The Divine conversation happens every playthrough for me.  You can support either Leliana (for disapproval) or Cassandra (for approval) or suggest her, in which she feigns surprise, but then agrees to pursue it, at which point you can formerly support her in that dialogue and at the War Table.  Is that scene linked to her approval?  Or do people miss it because they don't talk with her enough.

 

Also, after she brings Bastien's sister and son to a visit to Skyhold, Josephine makes a comment about how she thinks that the timing of their visit is "curious" because of the Divine talks and that she wonders what Vivienne is planning. 

 

I think some people miss the subtext in the divine conversation.  And the sister/son visit didn't fire for me in my first two games - maybe it's just because I usually do her quest relatively late.

 

But even with those conversations, it's still rather weak foreshadowing for her victory.  Of course, the other two candidates aren't ideal, but at least they're talked about a touch more openly.  

[Heidirs]

You can't hold her accountable for that.  If his family disowns him and banishes him to the front lines of the war because of a political faux pas, that's not on her.  She didn't kill him.  She scolded him, humiliated him, and sent him away.  The only way that she directly kills him is if the Inquisitor tells her to. 

 

If I'm viewing her as Master of The Game, how can I not hold her accountable for that? She didn't like what the Marquis did, so she put him in a situation where either the Inquisitor would ask for him to be killed or he'd be humiliated into throwing himself into a situation that would likely cause his death. She knew what she was doing when she set that up. She also put herself in a situation where she couldn't directly be blamed for her death - either the Inquisitor asks for his death or the war kills him. No one can directly point to her for that, but she's still the one who put those events into play.

 

... I may have just convinced himself that Vivienne is master of The Game...

 

 

 

To point one, you should really read some of the stories of real life courtesians and royal mistresses then.  The vast majority of them were slept with, impregnated, and then sent away from court with a stipend, losing any chance at anything further.  Only a very few of them were able to successfully maneuver that into something long-lasting and sustainable.  And even fewer of those women were able to get positions of power out of it.  Really interesting, and sad in many cases, stories. 

 

With regard to the third point, she does have a warm relationship with the family already, but, at that point, it's critical for her to secure that relationship directly.  As his mistress and in the position that she was in, it's clear that it's up to her to arrange the funeral.  We've not seen anything else with regard to what the norm is, so we can't really speak to it.  But she takes a situation that could have been the end of her career and turns it into another political success because she understands people and can read them well.  She specifically speaks to what both his sister and son would want and starts attending to it.  It's clear evidence that she's good at that stuff. 

 

To one, I guess I do need to do some reading. Although, I still wonder how much love was there between them and whether or not it was more of an organic process. Though, I suppose it stands to reason there could have been at least some Game playing involved.

 

To point three, I guess I need to understand more courtesans because I'm having trouble understanding how arranging a funeral puts her a better situation. It just seems like something you would normally do for family.

 

 

I feel like this last message and the one prior from you made that clearer.  I am a big fan of debating grey issues.  But if I feel that the other side isn't giving me anything, then to me, if feels like I'm being dismissed.  I don't need someone to even agree with me.  I'm happy with, like you said in the last message, "I never thought of it that way.  That might be true.  I'm not convinced still, but it's a good point."  But if all I get is people saying, "Nope.  Wrong.  Nope", then it's not worth it anymore on my end.  Unfortunately, the Vivienne "haters", in my experience, almost all fall in the latter category with only a half dozen exceptions or so. 

 

To fair, I'm sure my constant arguments made it feel like I was just arguing for argument's sake. I get how frustrating that is.

 

At this point, I'm considering not recruiting Vivienne just because I don't want to help her in The Game... which puts me a better situation that I was. I still don't like her... might not ever. But I think I'm starting to understand a bit.

[The Baconer]

I've always been curious about that from a legal/lore standpoint.  While I get that she's "outplayed" him by getting him to threaten the Inquisitor, I can't imagine that the powers that be in Orlais are supportive of mages killing nobles via magic in neither a legal court nor in the framework of an official duel.  I don't profess to be the expert in these lore issues, and if someone can conclusively verify one way or the other, that would be helpful.  But it just seems like the Chantry and the Court wouldn't be all too pleased.

 

But remember, it's the other mages that abuse their powers and need to be locked up :>

[daveliam]

I think some people miss the subtext in the divine conversation.  And the sister/son visit didn't fire for me in my first two games - maybe it's just because I usually do her quest relatively late.

 

But even with those conversations, it's still rather weak foreshadowing for her victory.  Of course, the other two candidates aren't ideal, but at least they're talked about a touch more openly.  

 

It isn't because of all of that other evidence that she's a master of The Game! 

 

Okay, but in reality, isn't that decision made based on the player's choices?  So, if Vivienne ends up Divine, it's because you've been supporting the restoration of the Circles and Templars, no?

[Heidirs]

The Divine conversation happens every playthrough for me.  You can support either Leliana (for disapproval) or Cassandra (for approval) or suggest her, in which she feigns surprise, but then agrees to pursue it, at which point you can formerly support her in that dialogue and at the War Table.  Is that scene linked to her approval?  Or do people miss it because they don't talk with her enough.

 

Also, after she brings Bastien's sister and son to a visit to Skyhold, Josephine makes a comment about how she thinks that the timing of their visit is "curious" because of the Divine talks and that she wonders what Vivienne is planning. 

 

Yeah, I missed all of that. Never got the cutscene with the funeral and never suggested her for divine in conversation. So what you say makes a lot more sense.

[daveliam]

... I may have just convinced himself that Vivienne is master of The Game...

 

And my work here is done!  <evil cackle and disappears into a cloud of black smoke......>

 

To one, I guess I do need to do some reading. Although, I still wonder how much love was there between them and whether or not it was more of an organic process. Though, I suppose it stands to reason there could have been at least some Game playing involved.

 

To point three, I guess I need to understand more courtesans because I'm having trouble understanding how arranging a funeral puts her a better situation. It just seems like something you would normally do for family.

 

If you are interested in reading about a few good examples, look up the difference between Mary and Anne Boleyn.  Both sisters were royal mistresses of Henry VIII.  Mary was the elder and his mistress first.  She slept with him right away, he got her pregnant, and she was sent away to an estate in the country to raise the kid.  Anne was the younger sister.  She was ambitious and wanted power (like Vivienne).  Instead of sleeping with him, she played the Tudor equivalent of The Game and manipulated her way into being his Queen and having considerable influence on the country (hell, Britain is still a Protestant nation because of her).  Of course, it didn't end well for her, but it shows how tough you had to work to go from mistress to any position of power.

 

Another good example is Diane de Poitiers, a French royal mistress of Henry II.  She ended up working her way up from the daughter of a minor noble, to royal mistress and, ultimately, in charge of the royal treasury and Henry's personal correspondence.  I bring her up because, when Henry died, his wife refused to allow her to attend his funeral and then banished her from court.  So funeral planning was always kind of a thing in Royal Courts. 

 

To fair, I'm sure my constant arguments made it feel like I was just arguing for argument's sake. I get how frustrating that is.

 

At this point, I'm considering not recruiting Vivienne just because I don't want to help her in The Game... which puts me a better situation that I was. I still don't like her... might not ever. But I think I'm starting to understand a bit.

 

I might have been a little sensitive about it last night.........  Just don't tell anyone I said so.

 

But to be honest, it was the combination of three different threads going in this exact direction (with a bunch of the same people) with the feelings of being dismissed that make me a little annoyed. 

[Heidirs]

But to be honest, it was the combination of three different threads going in this exact direction (with a bunch of the same people) with the feelings of being dismissed that make me a little annoyed. 

 

Yeah... I've been feeling that myself....

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I do like this, though, because it's a clear demonstration of how the pro-Circle side cannot simply sustain its own system to be proven right; they have to prove our system wrong, to say that there isn't a better way.

 

Not me. I would simply point to the remarkable length of time it remained functional (nearly 1000 years... even great empires do not last that long). One can feel good about its long-term prospective based on the data. Leliana's reforms, not so much...

 

And the system only collapsed thanks to a guy who proved why it should exist.

[LobselVith8]

Not me. I would simply point to the remarkable length of time it remained functional (nearly 1000 years... even great empires do not last that long). One can feel good about its long-term prospective based on the data. Leliana's reforms, not so much...

And the system only collapsed thanks to a guy who proved why it should exist.

Meredith declaring the Right of Annulment over something that the Circle of Kirkwall didn't do gave me the opposite impression about this system.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Meredith declaring the Right of Annulment over something that the Circle of Kirkwall didn't do gave me the opposite impression about this system.

 

Kirkwall is about as good an example of the Circle as it is for mages.

 

It's all Detroit up there.

[Heidirs]

Not me. I would simply point to the remarkable length of time it remained functional (nearly 1000 years... even great empires do not last that long). One can feel good about its long-term prospective based on the data. Leliana's reforms, not so much...

 

And the system only collapsed thanks to a guy who proved why it should exist.

Meredith declaring the Right of Annulment over something that the Circle of Kirkwall didn't do gave me the opposite impression about this system.

 

That was the whole point - two extremes to give you two different sides to choose from and perfectly good reason to do either one.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

That was the whole point - two extremes to give you two different sides to choose from and perfectly good reason to do either one.

 

The Circle is not an extreme. It is a joint-regulated entity, and if/when working properly, mages can thrive in it.

[TheJediSaint]

The Circle is not an extreme. It is a joint-regulated entity, and if/when working properly, mages can thrive in it.

In the context of Kirkwall, the points holds up.

 

Kirkwall's Templars were among the most oppressive in Thedas.  By the same measure, it also had an extremely high number of Maleficars an Abominations.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

In the context of Kirkwall, the points holds up.

 

Kirkwall's Templars were among the most oppressive in Thedas.  By the same measure, it also had an extremely high number of Maleficars an Abominations.

 

So, like I said, it is fine if/when working properly (which Kirkwall's Circle was not).

[Vit246]

And the system only collapsed thanks to a guy who proved why it should exist.

This is the same system that practically created Anders and he merely reacted against it. It creates its own enemies. It does not deserve to exist anymore.

[daveliam]

This is the same system that practically created Anders. Which is why it does not deserve to exist anymore.

 

I blame Justice.  Anders was fun in DA: A.  Then Justice came along to screw everything up.  More evidence to never trust spirits......

[Wulfram]

It isn't because of all of that other evidence that she's a master of The Game! 

 

Okay, but in reality, isn't that decision made based on the player's choices?  So, if Vivienne ends up Divine, it's because you've been supporting the restoration of the Circles and Templars, no?

 

In theory, but the mechanic is rather arcane.  I felt had no real reason to think that my moderate reformist who backed Cassandra wouldn't get her, for example.  But, turns out conscripting the mages gives Vivienne a big headstart.

 

Thing is, the only big chunk of points that really speaks to your view on the mage/templar stuff is the one that comes from the big Ally/Conscript choice, and that's got enough complicating factors that it doesn't necessarily get a good read.  All the other dialogue about Mage/Templar stuff tends to just give +1s.  And then the other choices that have big impacts don't really speak to your mage/templar views at all.

 

It's not that the system is without logic, but that logic is far from apparent without actually seeing the guts of the system.  And it's particularly sketchy when dealing with Cassandra and Vivienne because the detail of their positions aren't really all that distinct.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This is the same system that practically created Anders. Which is why it does not deserve to exist anymore.

 

Plenty of people went through the Fereldan Circle and came out fine.

 

Anders got out, abominated himself by a douchecanoe of a spirit, and then started speaking vitriol and getting violent toward the Circle.

 

The Circle had no hand in his insanity, though the fact that some would stretch the truth to blame the Circle instead of holding the mage party accountable says a lot about these people's priorities (not with the people in general, just the mages; Tevinter would love you).

[Barquiel]

That was the whole point - two extremes to give you two different sides to choose from and perfectly good reason to do either one.

 

We have detailed information about three circles (Ferelden in DA:O, White Spire in Asunder and Kirkwall in DA2). And from what I've seen, I don't view the Circle of Magi, in it's current form, as a good thing. It's broken and problematic at best, and abusive at worst (and horrible systems can go on for very long periods of time out of fear, or contentment for those in positions of comfort).