Kirkwall wasn't the first time.
The third time the Right of Annulment was invoked on a Circle of Magi, in 3:09 Towers, Knight-Commander Gervasio of Antiva killed all of the city's mages for demonic possession. However, a massacre may have already occurred at the hands of Knight-Captain Nicolas, with the Right invoked as cover-up. The Seekers of Truth later apprehended Ser Nicholas, who had left the order to kill mages and admitted to having murdered over a hundred.
It's not that the system is without logic, but that logic is far from apparent without actually seeing the guts of the system. And it's particularly sketchy when dealing with Cassandra and Vivienne because the detail of their positions aren't really all that distinct.
In case anyone interested in how the points system works for that: http://dragonage.wik...Divine_election
So I was thinking about agency and party makeup, and I think one of the issues with Vivienne is that you can't get rid of her.
I started going through the history of how you can engage with your fellow companions throughout the main game series, and I came up with this list:
Companions you can kill:
Leliana, Alistair, Wynne, Zevran, Shale, Loghain, Oghren, Sten, Bethany!, Anders, Merrill, Fenris*, Blackwall*
Companions you can enslave:
Fenris*
Companions you can imprison (success not guaranteed):
Morrigan*, Isabela
Companions you can send away/drive away:
Morrigan*, Aveline, Carver, Blackwall*, Sera, Cole, Dorian
Companions you're stuck with to the bitter end no matter what:
Varric (both times), Solas, Iron Bull, Cassandra, Vivienne
Now for those you're stuck with, three are arguably plot driven (Varric in DA2, Cassandra, Solas). So of the three characters of the entire series of games you're stuck with for no reason and have no way of getting rid of, they consist of a wisecracking easygoing dwarf, a wisecracking easygoing Qunari mercenary, and a manipulative arrogant mage.
I think there's traction to the idea of how the writing and market of this game series has changed considering you used to be able to kill your sister for role playing reasons, and now you can't even kick out a character who is openly challenging you in your own court.
I've always been curious about that from a legal/lore standpoint. While I get that she's "outplayed" him by getting him to threaten the Inquisitor, I can't imagine that the powers that be in Orlais are supportive of mages killing nobles via magic in neither a legal court nor in the framework of an official duel. I don't profess to be the expert in these lore issues, and if someone can conclusively verify one way or the other, that would be helpful. But it just seems like the Chantry and the Court wouldn't be all too pleased.
Makes a lot of sense if the PC's a human noble. Then it's a whole 'HOW DARE YOU?' kind of thing.
But there is precedent Hawke can do the same in MOTA with Prosper.
Plenty of people went through the Fereldan Circle and came out fine.
In recent years that's a bit debatable. It seems a very high proportion of those who went through the Fereldan circle ended up some mixture of blood mages, abominations or dead.
Kirkwall wasn't the first time.
The third time the Right of Annulment was invoked on a Circle of Magi, in 3:09 Towers, Knight-Commander Gervasio of Antiva killed all of the city's mages for demonic possession. However, a massacre may have already occurred at the hands of Knight-Captain Nicolas, with the Right invoked as cover-up. The Seekers of Truth later apprehended Ser Nicholas, who had left the order to kill mages and admitted to having murdered over a hundred.
Are we expecting there not to be any slip-ups in the course of 900+ years? Stuff like that might happen from time to time, but that occasional thing is still far preferable to what the mages did with their own Circle (slavery and blood-magic, with neither one an occasional thing).
I think there's traction to the idea of how the writing and market of this game series has changed considering you used to be able to kill your sister for role playing reasons, and now you can't even kick out a character who is openly challenging you in your own court.
Honestly, considering how there's plenty of other characters you can kick out, I don't know how anyone can claim the writing and market has changed just because that one character you want gone can't leave. That's not a market change. That's a complaint that you can't kick out one character.
Isn't Sera the only character you can kick out?
You can upset Cole and Dorian enough that they will leave.
I know you can seriously upset Blackwall... not sure if he'll leave but you can leave him to his fate and have him killed if you want
So your defending the slaughter of mages that can be covered up by saying that it was justifed like the one in 3:09 towers? Its doesn't surprise me anymore to the links to what the pro circle people will go to justify the system.Are we expecting there not to be any slip-ups in the course of 900+ years? Stuff like that might happen from time to time, but that occasional thing is still far preferable to what the mages did with their own Circle (slavery and blood-magic, with neither one an occasional thing).
So your defending the slaughter of mages that can be covered up by saying that it was justifed like the one in 3:09 towers? Its doesn't surprise me anymore to the links to what the pro circle people will go to justify the system.
I checked my prescription on my glasses, and it's still good; go check yours because that's definitely not what he said at all.
Blackwall will leave with very low approval.You can upset Cole and Dorian enough that they will leave.
Not sure about Blackwall... but you can leave him to his fate and have him killed if you want
You can upset Cole and Dorian enough that they will leave.
I know you can seriously upset Blackwall... not sure if he'll leave but you can leave him to his fate and have him killed if you want
You obviously never spoke to Anders about life in the Circle in Awakening. Or spoke to Anders at all, maybe.Plenty of people went through the Fereldan Circle and came out fine.
Anders got out, abominated himself by a douchecanoe of a spirit, and then started speaking vitriol and getting violent toward the Circle.
The Circle had no hand in his insanity, though the fact that some would stretch the truth to blame the Circle instead of holding the mage party accountable says a lot about these people's priorities (not with the people in general, just the mages; Tevinter would love you).
So your defending the slaughter of mages that can be covered up by saying that it was justifed like the one in 3:09 towers? Its doesn't surprise me anymore to the links to what the pro circle people will go to justify the system.
Ok, I didn't know that. I only saw the option for Sera in my playthrough.
The game only specifically gives you the option to tell Sera to leave. But for most of the others (except for Solas, Vivienne, and Cassandra), you can get their approval low enough that you will then get the option to tell them to leave and they will go.
You obviously never spoke to Anders about life in the Circle in Awakening. Or spoke to Anders at all, maybe.
You obviously never spoke to Anders about life in the Circle in Awakening. Or spoke to Anders at all, maybe.
By this same token, we have our own first hand account and one from just about every other mage there, that wasn't Anders, saying almost nothing bad about it, besides being watched by creepy dudes in armor. Mages in Kirkwall going so far as to talk about how much better the Ferelden Circle is. So Anders, the renegade murder who's been allowed to run away six times now, approves of selling one into literal slavery, and openly supports Tevinter's system of dealing with nonmages/mage issues, or everyone else. Hmmm. Tough choice.
You obviously never spoke to Anders about life in the Circle in Awakening. Or spoke to Anders at all, maybe.
Never ceases to amaze me the people who insist that Kinloch Hold is Hogwarts.
That's true. The ferelden circle is pretty bad. Gregoire for example is complaining that a grand total of seven mages were allowed to help at Ostagar. He thought that was too many. If only seven mages are allowed to fight at Ostagar, the front lines of the Blight, how many mages are ever given a chance to leave the circle and visit their family etc.? Not very many, I suspect.
Your basiclay saying the system is safe from abuse which someone has said it has been abused before Kirkwall. The system as it is now is ripe with abuses that can be inflicted upon a given circle by a knight comander like the one in 9:06 towers.I said nothing to that effect, thanks. If the event in 3:09 Towers truly is as described in that source (I do not believe everything I read) then, for the record, I would say it was a wrongful RoA. However, I will say that the RoA can be justifiable, and there is good reason for it to exist.
So he has nothing to say about the Circle before melding with Justice, despite going on and on about how the templars want to imprison mages just for being alive, about how the smell of pie means freedom to him, about how he wants to destroy his phylactery?Oh it's "obvious" is it? Well you happen to be wrong. Are you also one of those people who use the word "literally" wrongly as well?
So, I guess they rebelled because...? The blood mage who asks you to spare her life talks about how the templars were always watching. Before Anders' escape attempt, they were allowed out for weekly exercise sessions. Even in Sing Sing, prisoners get to go in the yard once a day.By this same token, we have our own first hand account and one from just about every other mage there, that wasn't Anders, saying almost nothing bad about it, besides being watched by creepy dudes in armor. Mages in Kirkwall going so far as to talk about how much better the Ferelden Circle is. So Anders, the renegade murder who's been allowed to run away six times now, approves of selling one into literal slavery, and openly supports Tevinter's system of dealing with nonmages/mage issues, or everyone else. Hmmm. Tough choice.
We have detailed information about three circles (Ferelden in DA:O, White Spire in Asunder and Kirkwall in DA2). And from what I've seen, I don't view the Circle of Magi, in it's current form, as a good thing. It's broken and problematic at best, and abusive at worst (and horrible systems can go on for very long periods of time out of fear, or contentment for those in positions of comfort).
I believe he was saying two extremes to pick from in Kirkwall. That was the point of the setup in Kirkwall/DA2. Not in general.
And this thread is about Vivi, dangit. Debate Circles vs. freedom in one of the jillion threads about that already. 
Honestly, considering how there's plenty of other characters you can kick out, I don't know how anyone can claim the writing and market has changed just because that one character you want gone can't leave. That's not a market change. That's a complaint that you can't kick out one character.
But it's not one character.
There are six characters in all three games you can't kick out. Varric (DA2), Varric (DAI), Cassandra, Vivienne, Iron Bull and Solas.
Five of the six characters you can't kick out are in DAI. None of the characters in any game have ever been considered sacrosanct, with the exception of Varric in DA2 and that's only because he's the narrator.
By this same token, we have our own first hand account ...
Maybe this is the key? Because the "first hand account" sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. Even presuming that our Origins HoF had the best possible Circle experience--Templars who are stern but fair or stuttering and handsome, wise and compassionate instructors, a gaggle of fun agemates to make mischief with--life in a Circle would still drive me bonkers.
Staying in one place for that long. Staying inside for that long. Lack of privacy. No family (not the one you're born to, not the one you'd make). Limited career options. I also have the impression that mages aren't paid for any labor they do for the Circle--so no spending money, either.
But it's not one character.
There are six characters in all three games you can't kick out. Varric (DA2), Varric (DAI), Cassandra, Vivienne, Iron Bull and Solas.
Five of the six characters you can't kick out are in DAI. None of the characters in any game have ever been considered sacrosanct, with the exception of Varric in DA2 and that's only because he's the narrator.
I've seen conflicting stories on this, though. I've seen people say that the only people that you can't kick out in DA: I are Cassandra, Vivienne, and Solas. And I've seen you say that you can't kick out Varric and Iron Bull, too.
Does anyone have a list of companions with an explanation of how they can leave?
Also, how do you kick out Dog, Sten, and Anders?
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