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[Sarielle]

If there were no Circle system, they could provide everyone with a free education, both mage and nonmage.

 

Perhaps they could, though that's an imaginary numbers debate ... but regardless, what makes you think that they would?

[Shahadem]

Man ... I really was hoping this wouldn't be another Circle argument thread, but few things here that aren't quite correct.

 

1) Most Circles allowed people to live "off campus" so to speak, with permission

2) Arbitrary punishment/killing etc. is only if the thing is super dysfunctional -- a Kirkwall

3) Well ... again, unless we're talking torture/starvation, yes, they do receive food, at least functional clothing and education (though most mage robes we see are actually pretty swanky even in more restricted Circles like Ferelden's

 

No, mages didn't get a choice about Circle life. Peasants don't get a choice about being peasants either, lol. I'm not saying abuses don't happen -- they clearly do, Kirkwall again being an example of the extreme -- but some mages (including Vivienne specifically, as a child) preferred it to starving/getting kicked around by nobles.

 

1) No they didn't. Vivienne was an extremely rare exception. While some mages were allowed to travel on occassion, usually if they had important Circle business to attend to, the vast majority of mages were not allowed to live outside the Circles. I suggest replaying DA:O, DA:A and DA2 as your memory is utterly failing you. Probably due to all that poison that Vivienne has been poring into your ear.

 

2) Arbitrary punishment was widespread in every Circle. Replay DA:O, DA:A, and DA2. Simply being denied freedom is a punishment, but that isn't what we are discussing. While arbitrary punishment was probably not the norm, it most certainly did occur in every Circle. I would point you to various case studies on the behaviours exhibited by guards and prisoners, even the famous case study with voluntary participants who took on the role of guards and prisoners.

 

3) There is no indication that the Tower provides education out of necessity. The Tower provides education as a means of investment and also because there is literally nothing else for the mages to do in the Towers other than read the very books that they are preserving by continually recopying. However there is no guarantee that any particular Circle will actually provide educational services, nor do we know that every mage is educated. We simply assume that is so because Biowares copied the concept of the monastery when creating the Circles.

 

Just because Vivienne says something does not automatically make it true, especially in light of actual evidence in previous games which directly contradicts Vivienne's assertions.

[Shahadem]

Perhaps they could, though that's an imaginary numbers debate ... but regardless, what makes you think that they would?

 

Why do countries provide education now? Because educating children increases their future productivity, increases life expectancy, among myriad other benefits.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

"but that occasional thing is still far preferable to what the mages did with their own Circle (slavery and blood-magic, with neither one an occasional thing)."

As in, the mages can apparently described as a homogenous collective. Though, not for the other side of the coin, of course. Those are "exceptions", "rogue agents", "not the rank-and-file" etc. It's like saying "we let the Andrastians run their own country, and what do we get? Government sanctioned murder".

Okay, insert [some of] in front "the mages."

Happy now?

Not sure what you have proven, exactly, but OK.

[Shahadem]

Kirkwall wasn't the first time.

 

The third time the Right of Annulment was invoked on a Circle of Magi, in 3:09 Towers, Knight-Commander Gervasio of Antiva killed all of the city's mages for demonic possession. However, a massacre may have already occurred at the hands of Knight-Captain Nicolas, with the Right invoked as cover-up. The Seekers of Truth later apprehended Ser Nicholas, who had left the order to kill mages and admitted to having murdered over a hundred.

 

Right before Kirkwall was the the one carried out in the Ferelden Circle. Morrigan really hated those Circle mages.

[Shahadem]

In the context of Kirkwall, the points holds up.

 

Kirkwall's Templars were among the most oppressive in Thedas.  By the same measure, it also had an extremely high number of Maleficars an Abominations.

 

As a result of the high degree of oppression.

 

But even the Ferelden Circle bred rebellion as the mages were fed up with being denied their freedom.

 

The reality however is that we can only interpret the stability of the Circle system by looking at the system based on real world examples of similar situations, as Bioware cheats by being in control of the lore and can write any ridiculous and impossible situation they want. Thus one can't really evaluate this system from an ingame context, it must be evaluated based on an out of game context.

[Sarielle]

Oh lawd. It just got personal I see.

 

1) No they didn't. Vivienne was an extremely rare exception. While some mages were allowed to travel on occassion, usually if they had important Circle business to attend to, the vast majority of mages were not allowed to live outside the Circles. I suggest replaying DA:O, DA:A and DA2 as your memory is utterly failing you. Probably due to all that poison that Vivienne has been poring into your ear.

 

2) Arbitrary punishment was widespread in every Circle. Replay DA:O, DA:A, and DA2. Simply being denied freedom is a punishment, but that isn't what we are discussing. While arbitrary punishment was probably not the norm, it most certainly did occur in every Circle. I would point you to various case studies on the behaviours exhibited by guards and prisoners, even the famous case study with voluntary participants who took on the role of guards and prisoners.

 

3) There is no indication that the Tower provides education out of necessity. The Tower provides education as a means of investment and also because there is literally nothing else for the mages to do in the Towers other than read the very books that they are preserving by continually recopying. However there is no guarantee that any particular Circle will actually provide educational services, nor do we know that every mage is educated. We simply assume that is so because Biowares copied the concept of the monastery when creating the Circles.

 

Just because Vivienne says something does not automatically make it true, especially in light of actual evidence in previous games which directly contradicts Vivienne's assertions.

 

1) The Ferelden Circle mages didn't get to travel. Neither did Kirkwall's. We have Vivienne saying mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with permission from the First Enchanters, and that it was the norm, not the exception. What's your rationalization for saying she's lying/incorrect?

 

2) I agreed with you that it certainly happened. You again are taking what happened at two Circles (what arbitrary punishment do we see in Origins?) ... or maybe just one Circle, and basing an argument that all were that way despite in-game sources suggesting otherwise. (Minaeve obviously had a positive Circle experience as well.)

 

3) I didn't say it was out of necessity? We do have Vivienne describing mages as receiving an education, though, and our Origin mages (again, a pretty restrictive Circle) certainly weren't illiterate. We see evidence of study everywhere there. I dunno where you were really going with this.

 

Just because you don't like Vivienne doesn't make what she says actually false, especially in light of evidence we have in the current and previous games that she's telling the truth.

[Xilizhra]

No, I am saying that when it runs optimally, the Circle is a safe and comfortable haven where mages can thrive. If there is an issue, it means the Templars or mages in question need to be dealt with. Getting rid of the Circle entirely does not solve such problems, it just means that those problems move to the outside world and get even more out of hand.
 
The police have committed abuses and sometimes brutalize people. Should we just get rid of police-departments everywhere??
 
No, you deal with the bad cops individually. You do not eliminate them altogether.

And the RoA is a reasonable last-resort for an outbreak of possession, blood-magic, or other very real problems. However, the most worthwhile thing about the RoA is that it makes mages realize there is a greater price for doing something stupid with their magic (consorting with demons, practicing blood-magic, or what have you) than their own lives -- it will also cost them the lives of those closest to them. That reality is true even if the RoA were banned.

The police analogy is false. The Circle isn't comparable to the general ideal of some kind of law enforcement, it's much more specific. The free College of Enchanters will have its own law enforcement, rest assured; it's how societies in general work.

[The Baconer]

Okay, insert [some of] in front "the mages."

Happy now?

Not sure what you have proven, exactly, but OK.

 

Well, we've now disproved the notion that, in the absence of the Circle system as it was, Tevinter is not the foregone conclusion.

 

I believe in a system like the Circle, but I also believe the rebellion was necessary as a wake-up call. Something needed to change.

[Sarielle]

Why do countries provide education now? Because educating children increases their future productivity, increases life expectancy, among myriad other benefits.

 

This is the same place where nobles are allowed to go in and rape peasant brides on their wedding nights, right? That place? They're gonna suddenly start educating the peasants and undermining their own power? OK. Sure. I'm sure that'll happen.

 

For the record, I don't think the Circles are ideal. I just don't know why people get so mad/take any positive comment about the Circles as a "burn the witch" moment. EDIT: Or how we get to blaming a lack of education for peasants on the Circles, for instance, lol.

[Personette]

They do get a free education, though, that was unavailable to most people. Also housing and food and clothing. That would be worth a fair bit of money. (I'm not saying you're wrong about what you said, just pointing out they had it better from a monetary standpoint than your average peasant.)

 

(1) They have skills which have a high value on the open market (and which are occasionally sold for favors, etc.)

(2) Knowing that I'd spend my entire life with the basic necessities--food, clothing, a bed, no more--no matter what I did would make me bonkers. (The alternative would be to get less--deprivation, torture, tranquility.)

 

There's a reason why in every single DA game, you hear at least one parent who refuses to believe their child is a mage, tries to hide it or deny it--because whether you're hanging out at Redcliffe with the rebel mages or the Lowtown alienage or in Redcliffe keep, finding out that your kid is a mage is a TRAGEDY. It makes a loving parent weep. 

[Ryzaki]

Oh lawd. It just got personal I see.

 

 

1) The Ferelden Circle mages didn't get to travel. Neither did Kirkwall's. We have Vivienne saying mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with permission from the First Enchanters, and that it was the norm, not the exception. What's your rationalization for saying she's lying/incorrect?

 

???

Don't we have a travelling botanist mage in Awakening. Not to mention Wynne. They are allowed to travel. There's probably hoops to jump through but we have examples of mages that travel.

 

Not to mention the whole having a meeting of mages in a city already pretty much screams that they have to be able to travel to go to the meeting in the first place.

[Shahadem]

If Alphonse is dead, it's because your Inquisitor allowed it. 

 

The smoking gun lies entirely in Vivienne's hands. Vivienne isn't a master of the Game. She is just a case of Bioware telling and then showing the complete opposite. There is no way a character like Viv is a master of any game requiring a degree of cunning she completely lacks.

 

Her total lack of empathy or capacity to see any other view than her own also makes it impossible for her to be a master of the Game.

[Ryzaki]

The smoking gun lies entirely in Vivienne's hands. Vivienne isn't a master of the Game. She is just a case of Bioware telling and then showing the complete opposite. There is no way a character like Viv is a master of any game requiring a degree of cunning she completely lacks.

 

Her total lack of empathy or capacity to see any other view than her own also makes it impossible for her to be a master of the Game.

 

Really? Lack of empathy? So she was faking empathy for my broken heart elf after Haven?

 

Strange. That was pretty good acting for someone with as low a degree of cunning you say she has. Just because she's not empathetic to the people you want her to be towards doesn't mean she lacks empathy.

[The Hierophant]

If there were no Circle system, they could provide everyone with a free education, both mage and nonmage.

I doubt it. In terms of safety Mage education is more important. Plus Just because the Chantry has the resources to educate a few thousand doesn't mean the same could done with a few million, while it's doubtful that Thedas' nobility would like the idea of peasants potentially rivaling, and endangering their position of authority

[KaiserShep]

You can't really place the blame solely on the Inquisitor for Alphonse. Vivienne's an adult of presumably sound mind and clearly free from duress. If Inky told her to jump off a bridge she'd obviously scoff at the command. She could just as easily test the Inquisitor's character and let him go anyway.

[Shahadem]

True. Aneirin was allowed to join Zathrian's clan at a young age, and no one forced him out; he was treated well and even taught elven magic. Even though he ended up voluntarily leaving many years later (because he said he preferred being out among nature), he admits that he follows the clan because he feels indebted to them. Considering that Elora was a halla herder and not the Second, it also implies that there is supposed to be yet another mage among the clan who would occupy the position of Second.

 

Merrill's dialogue also mentions that any child with magical ability is apprenticed to the Keeper, not simply two; she also expresses confusion at the Andrastian treatment of mages, since the People utilize magic, rather than discard it.

 

"Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice."

 

"But which was destroyed, the master or the apprentice?"

 

I think Bioware mixed up their DA lore with their Star Wars lore. DA:O and DA2 had multiple mages per clan. Bioware realized that this lore created a huge counter argument to Vivienne's position, so they tried retconning DA lore for DA:I just so that you couldn't directly counter Viv's arguments with your knowledge of DA lore.

 

But Bioware forgot to retcon the most important lore, that being Tevinter. Even though mages are everywhere in Tevinter and there is no Circle system. Tevinter isn't overrun with abominations. In fact it is quite the opposite, mages receive a better education as there are actual universities in Tevinter. While the Tevinter empire is evil, that isn't because it is run by mages, it is evil because Tevinter was founded and run by evil men as was our own Roman Empire.

[Sarielle]

???

Don't we have a travelling botanist mage in Awakening. Not to mention Wynne. They are allowed to travel. There's probably hoops to jump through but we have examples of mages that travel.

 

Not to mention the whole having a meeting of mages in a city already pretty much screams that they have to be able to travel to go to the meeting in the first place.

 

Whoops, you're right. It's been ages since Awakening and I kinda forgot Wynne >.>; good points

 

The smoking gun lies entirely in Vivienne's hands. Vivienne isn't a master of the Game. She is just a case of Bioware telling and then showing the complete opposite. There is no way a character like Viv is a master of any game requiring a degree of cunning she completely lacks.

 

Her total lack of empathy or capacity to see any other view than her own also makes it impossible for her to be a master of the Game.

 

So ... you don't actually have any proof that she's lying, but there IS proof of her telling the truth (though not that it was a universal truth for all mages, of course. She specifically mentions each mage's experience is unique).

 

I don't agree that she's completely without empathy, but even if so, it's a big leap to go from "no empathy = gotta be lying."

[Shahadem]

I think some people here might be kind of missing the point.

 

Vivienne shouldn't be disliked because she's a powerful, manipulative bitchy snob. She should be disliked because she isn't manipulative or powerful. Because the narrative tries to build up her character as a master of this sort of thing, but instead she's completely useless. Her 'machinations' are sleeping her way to top and moving furniture around. It's the same as when a book gushes over how great of a military genius a character is, who then goes on to implementing the tactics of a five year old.

 

If Vivienne was manipulative and powerful AND the Inquisitor was given intelligent, well written dialogue to counter her and put her in her place if the player so chooses (and perhaps more than dialogue), she could have been a great character. Obviously, I would have still very much disliked her on a personal level, but that's irrelevant.

 

So much this.

[Sarielle]

There's a reason why in every single DA game, you hear at least one parent who refuses to believe their child is a mage, tries to hide it or deny it--because whether you're hanging out at Redcliffe with the rebel mages or the Lowtown alienage or in Redcliffe keep, finding out that your kid is a mage is a TRAGEDY. It makes a loving parent weep. 

 

Well, I'm sure the thought of having your child taken from you is an awful one. That doesn't change anything about my comments on food/clothing/education, though.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Why do countries provide education now? Because educating children increases their future productivity, increases life expectancy, among myriad other benefits.

 

Please. Thedas is in the middle ages. 98% of the population are illiterate peasants who feed the rest. Universal education has been a thing for, what, 50 years now max in modern countries? 

 

Which brings me to what bugs me in this whole debate; it seems people are acting as if what is done to the mages is some kind of great injustice unequaled in Thedas, when it's, well, not. The vast majority of the population are, as I said, peasants, serfs who work their asses all their life to provide crops, or perhaps artisans who do the same to put food on the table. They are completely dependant on their overlords, and vulnerable to all the dangers of such a life; bandits, hostile wildlife, demons, blood mages, zealous templars, darkspawn, dragons, angry player characters, etc. 

 

That's without going into those whose life completely sucks from beginning to end; the majority of city elves, the Casteless, those who get a faceful of Qamek, the slaves of the Imperium. Thedas is a land choke full of injustice and shitty social systems, since it emulates real life at the medieval epoch.

 

Which is why I have a bit of a hard time weeping for the mages who are fed, clothed, educated, and live their life along like-minded individuals while learning how to melt people's faces off with their minds. They definitely don't live the high life, especially in bad circles like Kirkwall (which are explicitely said to be the exception), but compared to the vast majority of the population? Circle mages don't have it that bad, let's be honest. Does abuse exist, sure, but abuse is absolutely everywhere in Thedas, no single society or institution is immune to it by any means. And in how a circle is supposed to work, abuse is mostly a result of corrupt Templars, while in places like dwarven society, Tevinter slavery and the Qun, abuse is institutionalized. 

 

That's not to say that mages don't suffer abuse because others suffer worse. But I'm honestly starting to be a bit tired of the obsession with this debate, both in and out of the story. The rebellion happened, the result is whoever was crowned Divine, I just hope the next game(s) let this topic fall by the wayside because I feel the subject is now beyond exhausted. There are so many injustices in this world, I'm really not sure why this one is deemed by fans to be the ultimate infamy.

[daveliam]

You can't really place the blame solely on the Inquisitor for Alphonse. Vivienne's an adult of presumably sound mind and clearly free from duress. If Inky told her to jump off a bridge she'd obviously scoff at the command. She could just as easily test the Inquisitor's character and let him go anyway.

Agreed. Unfortunately the poster you quoted just took one part of a larger statement in order to go on another diatribe against Vivienne. I agree that it's partially Vivienne's fault. I was pointing out that if Alphonse is dead, it's because your Inquisitor asked her to kill him because he insulted him/her. I brought that point up because people were complaining about how petty she was to have killed someone over a personal insult. My point was that, if Alphonse is dead, your Inquisitor is just as petty as her.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This is all just so wrong on so many levels

No. 
 

I'll just repost the most aggregious and head smacking part of your post, "the most worthwhile thing about the RoA is that it makes mages realize there is a greater price for doing something stupid with their magic (... practicing blood-magic, or what have you)." Being killed over using one's own blood to save someone's life seems totally reasonable. Yep. Totally reasonable.

 

And in quoting me, you cut out the thing that preemptively responded this whine of a rebuttal: "That reality is true even if the RoA were banned."

 

That is to say, blood-magic is very dangerous and gets lots of people killed (oh, you also cut out the "consorting with demons" part, too; funny), RoA or no.

 

You will also note that I called the RoA a "last-resort" option, which is to say, it is not to be used for everything. Jowan's blood-magic did not get the Circle annulled. Obviously we are only looking at RoA when the problem is at a level where all of the mages are endangered anyway and when death might be the only merciful option.

[Ryzaki]

Agreed. Unfortunately the poster you quoted just took one part of a larger statement in order to go on another diatribe against Vivienne. I agree that it's partially Vivienne's fault. I was pointing out that if Alphonse is dead, it's because your Inquisitor asked her to kill him because he insulted him/her. I brought that point up because people were complaining about how petty she was to have killed someone over a personal insult. My point was that, if Alphonse is dead, your Inquisitor is just as petty as her.

 

Plus her verbally tearing him apart is just so much better for that scene really. You can tell she's been wanting to give him that tongue lashing for a while. At first I was all "damn going straight to the jugular. What did he do?" now though makes sense.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The police analogy is false. The Circle isn't comparable to the general ideal of some kind of law enforcement, it's much more specific. The free College of Enchanters will have its own law enforcement, rest assured; it's how societies in general work.

 

Congrats on your reinvented wheel, then.

 

Well, we've now disproved the notion that, in the absence of the Circle system as it was, Tevinter is not the foregone conclusion.

 

I believe in a system like the Circle, but I also believe the rebellion was necessary as a wake-up call. Something needed to change.

 

What I said earlier was: based on the data, [x] likely implies ___ (where [x] was either [The Circle] or [freeing the mages].

 

It is entirely possible that freeing the mages will lead to some great, grand utopia. I am not denying the possibility. However, the data suggests otherwise.

 

And that was their second-chance.