824 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Well, if such arrangements were more common then I really wouldn't see how mages would have a problem with the Circle.

 

Pass my Harrowing, study for a couple years, help some random rebellion and Boom I'm allowed out of the Circle with no supervision or limits as to where or how I want to live. Can't argue with that. 

 

And it appears that does happen sometimes.  Some First Enchanters are probably more lenient than others.  Some Circles have looser policies than others.  And some mages are simply more trustworthy than others.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I totally support a revolution by the Casteless, the City Elves and the Orlesian Serfs, along with the mages.  At least if circumstances allowed a reasonable prospect of success - the mages big advantage is that they do have the means to fight back.

 

Honestly, a big reason why that sort of stuff doesn't get much attention is because not many people go around saying that their treatment is justified.  Aside from the odd Loghain fan trying to excuse selling elves into slavery, but most Loghain supporters realise that's a step too far.

 

Also, people do take their lead from the games, which neglects these issues.  I find it distinctly annoying that Briala is left almost totally without the context of oppression that motivates the elves' revolt - it's played off like a lovers tiff, the whole Celene ordering a massacre thing is forgotten.

 

The bolded is a fair point, I concede, albeit there are also a fair number of Tevinter/Qunari supporters in these boards. And I'm pretty sure most Templar supporters don't approve of the abuses inflicted in Kirkwall's circle, but of the concept of a Circle that keeps mages safe and the outside safe from them. 

 

In my mind, Inquisition has shown that blind support for either faction is wrong; the Templars were discredited by the endemic corruption within their ranks, which even Cassandra and Vivienne find appaling. The Mages have proven to be both very vulnerable to outside influence, and to be pretty damn irresponsible all in all (rebel mages massacring people in the Hinterlands? Tranquils being butchered under our noses? not our problem!). 

[Ryriena]

Well, Wilhelm as an argument for mages living is not a good cases. Since he left the circle and got a boon from King Maric to stay outside the circle, the book writer got permission to leave from the circle since she was able to bribe some Templars too allow her to leave. Finn had permission to leave because he is the son of a noble who adore him. Plus he has Arein to protect him.

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps you need to read again. I'm not saying it's a justification for what happens, and I said upthread the circles requires reform, especially corrupt Templars. What I mean is that it's really less of an injustice than countless other injustices we see in the series, but for some reason they are all swept under the rug of ''meh, it's a medieval land, **** happens'' while the fate of the mages is treated as the ultimate abomination (pun intended) when it's really nothing out of the ordinary. I am in no way saying what happens in the Circles is right, please take the zealous blinders off a bit.

Incorrect. It's not that I don't care about them; indeed, I'd be all for overthrowing the various monarchies of Thedas, and bad governance is why I was always opposed to nationalized Circles. It's just that those causes aren't being fought for in-universe; the mages are the only ones who have the power to fight for themselves. There's no revolution backing Thedas' mundane commoners, with the exception of Briala's in Inquisition, and I support that one too.

[Korva]

Again, like Sarielle stated, your issue isn't with Vivienne, it's with the Inquisitor and how s/he was portrayed.

 

I'm not sure one can really separate the two. IMO it does say something about the writer's intentions for a character when another character (PC or NPC) is stripped of what agency, power and/or knowledge they have and reduced to a powerless infant or a drooling ignoramus just to make the first character look good.

 

And I'm pretty sure most Templar supporters don't approve of the abuses inflicted in Kirkwall's circle, but of the concept of a Circle that keeps mages safe and the outside safe from them. 

 

In my mind, Inquisition has shown that blind support for either faction is wrong;

 

Yes and yes. My canon is a templar alliance in part because they need to change, get their sh*t together, and actually become the "champions of the just" they are supposed to be, defending mages and non-mages alike. For me it's a redemption story, not one of blind support for the status quo and all that was wrong with it, and my Trevelyan warrior who came close to becoming a templar herself definitely expects a lot from them and made sure they know it.

 

One of the main lessons from Inquisition is that every cause and organization can be corrupted and needs to be watched vigilantly. And that absolutely includes us.

[Addai]

Plus a mage who used to hang out in Honnleath, tinkering with a golem (before it killed him) and even married and raised a family...

A mage who helped turn the tide of the war with Orlais and served personally with Maric, Loghain and several arls of Redcliffe. This is irrelevant to any discussion of normal conditions in the Circle, or Vivienne's desire to ensure that all other mages other than herself and such exceptions are locked up.

[Xilizhra]

Yes and yes. My canon is a templar alliance in part because they need to change, get their sh*t together, and actually become the "champions of the just" they are supposed to be, defending mages and non-mages alike. For me it's a redemption story, not one of blind support for the status quo and all that was wrong with it, and my Trevelyan warrior who came close to becoming a templar herself definitely expects a lot from them and made sure they know it.

 

One of the main lessons from Inquisition is that every cause and organization can be corrupted and needs to be watched vigilantly. And that absolutely includes us.

Personally, I think the templars can show their commitment to change by joining the Inquisition. And for those who didn't... well, I hope you find fulfillment in the red stuff before I kill you.

[Sarielle]

That templar who guards the front door in the mage origin flat out tells you that the only way to get out of the tower is to jump out the window. That doesn't sound very privileged to me.

 

Because you didn't have permission from the First Enchanter. And it's already been mentioned that Ferelden's Circle was one of the stricter ones.

 

 

 

This argument, ubiquitous as it is on the boards, is completely ludicrous. "People are suffering elsewhere" is not any sort of justification for imprisoning a whole class of people and all that comes with creating a subgroup whose abuse is covered and in some respects sanctioned by ideology. And only privileged moderns would think that working the land or pursuing a trade is like a prison sentence.

 

 

Nobody said anything remotely like that, though. Reread what you're responding to.

 

 

Then make everyone fail - nobody has all the answers. I'd be perfectly fine with that. But being told I'm thinking wrong and the other guy has it right, I take that from experts in their field, but not from writers who, in quite a few cases, have less knowledge of the matter at hand than I do - as it pertains to real-world issues only of course. Where the specifics of the fictional world dominate the decision-making, rather than connected real-world values, there isn't usually a problem either way.

 

... Why though? Sometimes people do get things right and things do work out well, whether through careful consideration or dumb luck. I still think we don't need to pander to the need to self-insert in an RPG. Everyone does not deserve a medal. As the late, great George Carlin said:

 

"In today's America, no child ever loses. There are no losers anymore. Everyone's a winner. No matter what the game or sport or competition, everybody wins. Everybody wins, everybody gets a trophy, no one is a loser. No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby!"

[Wulfram]

I think the notion that the Templars can just reform and switch into "guardians" is far fetched.  Whatever they want to do, given their past conduct how can you expect the mages to trust them?  And without that trust, what option will the Templars have except to be jailers?

[Heidirs]

I think the notion that the Templars can just reform and switch into "guardians" is far fetched.  Whatever they want to do, given their past conduct how can you expect the mages to trust them?  And without that trust, what option will the Templars have except to be jailers?

 

I'd expect they'd get new training. Everyone, mages included, would have new rules to adjust to. True, some will probably never trust the Templars again. But that's not say if given time, new training on both sides, and gradual understanding that things can't change or at least be different.

[Wulfram]

I'd expect they'd get new training. Everyone, mages included, would have new rules to adjust to. True, some will probably never trust the Templars again. But that's not say if given time, new training on both sides, and gradual understanding that things can't change or at least be different.

 

But why would they be better?  All that recent events have done is multiply the reasons for hatred and suspicion on both sides.

 

Even if you think that the mages need watchdogs, making them the Templars is foolish, because the Templars will always be bound by their own legacy of failure.  And unlike the mages, who can't escape their own mistakes so easily, the Templars can stop being Templars by the stroke of a pen.

[Heidirs]

But why would they be better?  All that recent events have done is multiply the reasons for hatred and suspicion on both sides.

 

By the end of Inquisition pretty much the only Mages and Templars left who weren't corrupted by Corypheus are the ones who decided fighting wasn't worth the blood shed. The rebels have been dealt with and the red templars pacified. You have a whole group of people who are tired of fighting and wanting change.

 

I'm not saying keeping the Templars is the best option. But there's no reason to assume keeping them will ultimately end up in disaster. I imagine people would be willing to try the new rules for a little while. What happens after that would be up to them. Considering half the mages didn't want to split from the circle in the first place... it's possible things could be okay.  

[Barquiel]

 

Because you didn't have permission from the First Enchanter. And it's already been mentioned that Ferelden's Circle was one of the stricter ones.

 

I know it's one of the stricter ones. But the permission from the first enchanter wouldn't have changed a thing. Irving wanted to send additional mages to Ostagar but Greagoir stopped him from doing so. Again, he only permitted seven mages to participate at Ostagar (to stop the Fifth Blight), when Irving openly disagreed with that decision. Gregoire even thought seven mages going to fight a war was too many, he only agreed because he was ordered to. What makes you think he would give the permission in peace time?

[Sarielle]

I know it's one of the stricter ones. But the permission from the first enchanter wouldn't have changed a thing. Irving wanted to send additional mages to Ostagar but Greagoir stopped him from doing so. Again, he only permitted seven mages to participate at Ostagar (to stop the Fifth Blight), when Irving openly disagreed with that decision. Gregoire even thought seven mages going to fight a war was too many, he only agreed because he was ordered to. What makes you think he would give the permission in peace time?

 

Which all goes back to Ferelden's Circle being one of the stricter ones. Whether that was on Irving or Gregoire is irrelevant.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I think the notion that the Templars can just reform and switch into "guardians" is far fetched.  Whatever they want to do, given their past conduct how can you expect the mages to trust them?  And without that trust, what option will the Templars have except to be jailers?

 

The mages aren't much more trustworthy in my books. If both sides are to endlessly air their grievances all the time, we might as well resume the War until everyone is dead, but that doesn't help anybody now does it?

 

Besides, the vast majority of the more corrupt elements of the Templars presumably died via an Inquisitor to the face over the course of the story, especially if they went to Therinfall redoubt. I suspect the remainder are less likely to be the assholes that made the rebellion what it was by their transgressions.

[Sarielle]

You know what this thread about Vivienne needs? More Vivienne in the discussion Here, more Vivienne.

 

[Wulfram]

The mages aren't much more trustworthy in my books. If both sides are to endlessly air their grievances all the time, we might as well resume the War until everyone is dead, but that doesn't help anybody now does it?

 

Besides, the vast majority of the more corrupt elements of the Templars presumably died via an Inquisitor to the face over the course of the story, especially if they went to Therinfall redoubt. I suspect the remainder are less likely to be the assholes that made the rebellion what it was by their transgressions.

 

The difficulty for the Templars to trust the mages is another reason why re-establishing the circles under Templar "protection" can't work.  The relationship is hopelessly poisoned.  Once both parties have resorted to trying to murder each other, the marriage is over.  Counselling and a promise to put the toilet seat down aren't going to cut it, it's time to give up.

 

I don't see any real reason the more corrupt elements would have taken particularly heavy losses, but it's not really relevant.  No matter how nice the remaining Templars are, they're heirs to their predecessors poisonous legacy.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The difficulty for the Templars to trust the mages is another reason why re-establishing the circles under Templar "protection" can't work.  The relationship is hopelessly poisoned.  Once both parties have resorted to trying to murder each other, the marriage is over.  Counselling and a promise to put the toilet seat down aren't going to cut it, it's time to give up.

 

I don't see any real reason the more corrupt elements would have taken particularly heavy losses, but it's not really relevant.  No matter how nice the remaining Templars are, they're heirs to their predecessors poisonous legacy.

 

I think the Order should be disbanded and absorbed into another organization (the Seekers for example) who would serve as an overwatch for Circles that self-govern. The thing is, unless you start mass-producing Seekers (with the implications we know of that now), you need to have warriors that can use Lyrium to take down demons and rogue mages. Inquisition has shown trusting mages to police themselves with no one else having a say is pretty damn risky, they haven't shown the responsibility to be trusted with such powers IMO.

[Iakus]

A mage who helped turn the tide of the war with Orlais and served personally with Maric, Loghain and several arls of Redcliffe. This is irrelevant to any discussion of normal conditions in the Circle, or Vivienne's desire to ensure that all other mages other than herself and such exceptions are locked up.

Except Vivienne specifically says she is not exceptional in being able to leave.  Montsimmard may be one of the more permissive Circles, of course.  But such permission does happen.

 

The difficulty for the Templars to trust the mages is another reason why re-establishing the circles under Templar "protection" can't work.  The relationship is hopelessly poisoned.  Once both parties have resorted to trying to murder each other, the marriage is over.  Counselling and a promise to put the toilet seat down aren't going to cut it, it's time to give up.

 

Interestingly, Allying with the Templars and VIvienne becoming Divine seems to make such relations better.  The mages in teh reformed Circle are given more freedoms and responsibilities, and Vivienne (a mage) maintains strong oversight over the reformed Templars.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Alright, lets talk about how she despises, or at the very belittles, apostate mages like Solas and Morrigan regardless of the fact that they'll proven themselves to be in fully control of their abilities and are unlikely to become possessed.

 

You'd think she'd respect the merit of people who've managed to successfully gain enough knowledge and magical power to be recognized as a venerable authority's, to the point where they are accepted into the Inquisition and Imperial Court, respectively, in spite of being apostates in first place. 

[daveliam]

Alright, lets talk about how she despises, or at the very belittles, apostate mages like Solas and Morrigan regardless of the fact that they'll proven themselves to be in fully control of their abilities and are unlikely to become possessed.

You'd think she'd respect the merit of people who've managed to successfully gain enough knowledge and magical power to be recognized as a venerable authority's, to the point where they are accepted into the Inquisition and Imperial Court, respectively, in spite of being apostates in first place.

I think she's terrified of them. She truly believes that the Circle is necessary. I personally think it's because she had a particularly tough Harrowing and has convinced herself that, if she can almost get possessed as capable as she is, many 'weaker' mages are more succeptible to it. And it's this fear of demons, spirits, possession, and abominations that makes her convinced that the Circles are the best way to protect everyone.

So when Solas and Morrigan come along, she side-eyes them because they don't have the 'proper training' and 'proper supervision', making their possession not only more likely, but inevitable. For her, it's not a matter of IF they will become possessed, it's WHEN they will become possessed. And she finds it's insulting because if they only played by the rules, they wouldn't put everyone else at risk. She sees it as selfish: their refusal to join a Circle will eventually cause good people to die.

Now, before I get fifteen replies claiming that I'm a fool and Vivienne's a ****** and a hypocrite and whatnot, I just want to say that I'm not saying that these are MY opinions. This is what I suspect SHE thinks. And part of that is because I don't see her as a one-dimensional cartoon villain. So....YMMV, but those are my thoughts on it.

[Heidirs]

I think she's terrified of them. She truly believes that the Circle is necessary. I personally think it's because she had a particularly tough Harrowing and has convinced herself that, if she can almost get possessed as capable as she is, many 'weaker' mages are more succeptible to it. And it's this fear of demons, spirits, possession, and abominations that makes her convinced that the Circles are the best way to protect everyone.

So when Solas and Morrigan come along, she side-eyes them because they don't have the 'proper training' and 'proper supervision', making their possession not only more likely, but inevitable. For her, it's not a matter of IF they will become possessed, it's WHEN they will become possessed. And she finds it's insulting because if they only played by the rules, they wouldn't put everyone else at risk. She sees it as selfish: their refusal to join a Circle will eventually cause good people to die.

 

That makes a whole lot of sense to me.

[daveliam]

That makes a whole lot of sense to me.

That being said, she's a total ****** to them and ts really uncalled for, especially with Solas, who if I recap correctly, is nice to her at first. That part is just her being needlessly rude, per her style.

[Ryriena]

She is a hypocrite, since most of the mages like Morgian or Sloas proves to her that circles aren't needed to provided a education to the mages. In fact, she alone never had to worry about what the others mages had to go through in the circle becuse of the fact she never had to live in the circle.

[Korva]

I think the notion that the Templars can just reform and switch into "guardians" is far fetched. 

 

No more far-fetched than a mage on the Sunburst Throne or especially softened Leliana's massive effortless reforms, IMO.

 

Whatever they want to do, given their past conduct how can you expect the mages to trust them?  And without that trust, what option will the Templars have except to be jailers?

 

First, many mages never wanted the war. Not all mages are slavering templar-haters, just as not all templars are slavering mage-haters.

 

Second, many of the extremists on either side are dead -- like the ones we deal with in the Hinterlands. The templars who survive Therinfal and join up with us are those who hesitated and fought back instead of following orders blindly, and got an undeniable demonstration of how far the order had fallen.

 

Third, Cullen mentions the templars and mages of the Inquisition starting to bond with each other. Now that's admittedly "just" our own people, but that should still be a not inconsiderable number. And they can carry those experiences with them even if they leave us later.

 

Fourth, our templars do reform and become into guardians. The war table missions show them doing exactly that. They protect innocent mages from angry crowds, investigate accusations to see if there's merit to them instead of just killing every mage on principle, and offer amnesty to mages willing to abandon the blood mage cult they got roped into. And the leader who reports back to the Inquisitor expresses relief that they're able to serve this way after Therinfal.

 

Fifth, not even Vivienne wants to put things back exactly how they used to be. I definitely agree that would not go over well and would just lead to the same sh*t happening again sooner or later. Thankfully, mages will have more freedom than before, no matter who becomes Divine. With Cassandra or Leliana on the throne, there won't even be "jailers" anymore.

 

And unlike the mages, who can't escape their own mistakes so easily, the Templars can stop being Templars by the stroke of a pen.

 

Two words: lyrium addiction. Cass is right about the fact that the templars have had even fewer ways to air their pain than mages did.