Which all goes back to Ferelden's Circle being one of the stricter ones. Whether that was on Irving or Gregoire is irrelevant.
So when Solas and Morrigan come along, she side-eyes them because they don't have the 'proper training' and 'proper supervision', making their possession not only more likely, but inevitable. For her, it's not a matter of IF they will become possessed, it's WHEN they will become possessed. And she finds it's insulting because if they only played by the rules, they wouldn't put everyone else at risk. She sees it as selfish: their refusal to join a Circle will eventually cause good people to die.
Mmm, I think it's an ego thing. Vivienne is hardly one to play by the rules. Or at least, rules that aren't her own.
Except Vivienne specifically says she is not exceptional in being able to leave. Montsimmard may be one of the more permissive Circles, of course. But such permission does happen.
Interestingly, Allying with the Templars and VIvienne becoming Divine seems to make such relations better. The mages in teh reformed Circle are given more freedoms and responsibilities, and Vivienne (a mage) maintains strong oversight over the reformed Templars.
Yeah they would, heck Ivring got yelled at by Gregior for wanting to send more than seven mages to the battle of Ostgar.Are you serious? Practically everywhere I hear is that he Ferekden circle was one of the most LIBERAL and FREE circles? I didn't think Templar supporters would actually make stuff up
Mmm, I think it's an ego thing. Vivienne is hardly one to play by the rules. Or at least, rules that aren't her own.
Yeah they would, heck Ivring got yelled at by Gregior for wanting to send more than seven mages to the battle of Ostgar.
She isn't my favorite character, I tend to enjoy the ones I actually like best, but she does have some great dialogue. I have especially liked her and Iron Bull and if I take her, I try to include him.
That being said, she's a total ****** to them and ts really uncalled for, especially with Solas, who if I recap correctly, is nice to her at first. That part is just her being needlessly rude, per her style.
Whenever I play, the first party banter I get between the two of them is Vivienne saying something about hoping he can keep up. And he says something along the lines of "I'll try to learn through your efforts to close the rifts... oh wait. You weren't there." So they kind of give it back to each other.
Yes but to some Templar supporters he was OCC even thought the book was written by David Gaider himself.If that's what the most liberal circle is like, I don't think I can support it. Plus, didn't greagoir beat up a pregnant Mage in the comics before DAO was released?
I think she's terrified of them. She truly believes that the Circle is necessary. I personally think it's because she had a particularly tough Harrowing and has convinced herself that, if she can almost get possessed as capable as she is, many 'weaker' mages are more succeptible to it. And it's this fear of demons, spirits, possession, and abominations that makes her convinced that the Circles are the best way to protect everyone.
So when Solas and Morrigan come along, she side-eyes them because they don't have the 'proper training' and 'proper supervision', making their possession not only more likely, but inevitable. For her, it's not a matter of IF they will become possessed, it's WHEN they will become possessed. And she finds it's insulting because if they only played by the rules, they wouldn't put everyone else at risk. She sees it as selfish: their refusal to join a Circle will eventually cause good people to die.
Now, before I get fifteen replies claiming that I'm a fool and Vivienne's a ****** and a hypocrite and whatnot, I just want to say that I'm not saying that these are MY opinions. This is what I suspect SHE thinks. And part of that is because I don't see her as a one-dimensional cartoon villain. So....YMMV, but those are my thoughts on it.
You're probably right.
This does seem to the sort of thinking that Vivienne would have. It actually reminds of Sera's, in way that it's a prejudiced response based on fear, paranoia, religious dogma along with non-comprehensive personal and historical evidence. Vivienne was taught spirits are good and demons are evil by the Chantry, and of course she accepts it because to do so would probably label her a maleficar rather quickly. It doesn't matter that both Solas and Morrigan possess non-blood magic related knowledge that could enrich the Circle and perhaps change the Chantry's common wisdom about the separation of spirits and demons or its ambivalence towards hedge magic from the tribal societies in Thedas. Nope, nope, nope. These apostates must be wrong, their magics inherently dangerous and untrustworthy, and their impressive abilities irrelevant because they weren't taught in a Circle.
Like Sera she refuses to see alternative way of doing things or even learning new things because she's afraid of the unknown, which is understandable to a degree, but when you refuse to listen even when doing so could be beneficial and can possibly be made safe for others, then aren't you being flagrantly ignorant? It makes sense character-wise of course, but like Sera I sorta of hoped that she would be more open-minded overtime.
Oh well.
Yes but to some Templar supporters he was OCC even thought the book was written by David Gaider himself.
I had one person actually said to me that he was Occ in that book and basiclly defending him as well which was just vile to me. I was shocked to say the least.Wait, so Templar supporters try to defend bating up pregnant women? I've seen defending mge genocide and all sort of bad things from Templar supporters? Why are Templar supporters so much more unlikeable?
Now, before I get fifteen replies claiming that I'm a fool and Vivienne's a ****** and a hypocrite and whatnot, I just want to say that I'm not saying that these are MY opinions. This is what I suspect SHE thinks. And part of that is because I don't see her as a one-dimensional cartoon villain. So....YMMV, but those are my thoughts on it.
Though I don't like Vivienne, I definitely agree that treating her like a "one-dimensional cartoon villain" is nonsense ... and using gendered insults like the b-word is right out anyway. She's a believable character, just not one I'd trust.
She is a hypocrite, since most of the mages like Morgian or Sloas proves to her that circles aren't needed to provided a education to the mages. In fact, she alone never had to worry about what the others mages had to go through in the circle becuse of the fact she never had to live in the circle.
Untrue. Vivienne didn't go from newly discovered apprentice to Duke Bastien's live-in bedmate in the blink of an eye, that would be 1) vomit-inducingly disgusting even by Orlais' otherwise probably pretty nonexistent standards, and 2) almost certainly not allowed because she hadn't passed her Harrowing yet. She would have about a decade of training in the Circle until she was old and prepared enough for the Harrowing (depending on how old she was), and then who knows how much more time before she met Bastien and the arrangement was made.
Unfortunately Viv is a really hard sell. She's selfish, dishonest, elitist and arrogant. Morrigan had similar faults (and let's remember she is hated by many) but she had a lot of redeeming qualities, whilst Vivienne has hardly any.
Heh, it's the other way round for me. I can muster some interest in Vivienne and don't think she's utterly beyond the pale -- but Morrigan absolutely is.
She is a hypocrite, since most of the mages like Morgian or Sloas proves to her that circles aren't needed to provided a education to the mages. In fact, she alone never had to worry about what the others mages had to go through in the circle becuse of the fact she never had to live in the circle.
To be fair, Solas is a God who probably isn't even susceptible to possession. But since Vivienne doesn't know that, she is being dismissive of his impressive ability to remain unpossessed for no
That being said, she's a total ****** to them and ts really uncalled for, especially with Solas, who if I recap correctly, is nice to her at first. That part is just her being needlessly rude, per her style.
Sera and her should really get together and prank him.
Perhaps move all his furniture to Blackwall's barn.
real reason besides being annoyed that an apostate can survive without the Circle.
She's not bad if you can't first get by her pompous nature and her completely detached viewpoint of the whole mage condition.
The only time I take them is when Sera and Viv are together. Vivienne is good for shutting down Sera's rude remarks.
She's not bad if you can't first get by her pompous nature and her completely detached viewpoint of the whole mage condition.
The only time I take them is when Sera and Viv are together. Vivienne is good for shutting down Sera's rude remarks.
Now if only someone could shut down all of Vivienne's rude remarks. 
I had one person actually said to me that he was Occ in that book and basiclly defending him as well which was just vile to me. I was shocked to say the least.
I disagree that she doesn't play by the rules. She absolutely plays by the rules. Just because she doesn't live in the Circle all the time (I won't even respond to people who claim that she never lived in the circle when she talks about her time there and how she enjoyed it....), doesn't mean she's a rule breaker. She got PERMISSION to live outside of the Circle. She went through the appropriate channels and played by the rules to get where she is. In fact, I can't think of any times when we've seen her break a rule. Even killing Alphonse, since we've seen that this is something that has precedent in Orlesian society.
"Rules" as in the original religious edicts that lead to the creation of the Circle, and the general isolation of mages from politics. The idea that she could be Divine is anathema to the southern Chantry.
She's basically a magister, yet as if Tevinter was "done right", so to speak.
You count suspicion of your abusers as slavering hatred?
Do you need to be an extremist to fear when those who persecuted and slaughtered your people and then defied the Divine to continue slaughtering and persecuting them, are endorsed and retained by the new divine?
You don't need to stop taking Lyrium to stop being a Templar. Ending the conflict between Mages and Templars is easy, you just end the Templars. If you keep them and their blood stained standards, then you're simply proclaiming the Mages have been conquered again and should enjoy your forbearance and "protection"... while it lasts
You count suspicion of your abusers as slavering hatred?
Do you need to be an extremist to fear when those who persecuted and slaughtered your people and then defied the Divine to continue slaughtering and persecuting them, are endorsed and retained by the new divine?
You don't need to stop taking Lyrium to stop being a Templar. Ending the conflict between Mages and Templars is easy, you just end the Templars. If you keep them and their blood stained standards, then you're simply proclaiming the Mages have been conquered again and should enjoy your forbearance and "protection"... while it lasts
You seem to be looking at all Templars as mage slaughters and persecuters and all mages as fearful and mistrusting of them.
This is not the case. The world is not that black and white.
Now if only someone could shut down all of Vivienne's rude remarks.
Vivienne: Well, dear, I hope you can take care of yourself, should we encounter anything outside your experience.
Solas: I will try, in my own fumbling way, to learn from how you helped seal the rifts at Haven.
Solas: Ah, wait. My memory misleads me. You were not there.
especially softened Leliana's massive effortless reforms, IMO.
Yeah, that's one of the parts that made me go ''qué?''. Softened!Leliana almost gets rid of all the Chantry's accumulated baggage and prejudice overnight. just by being nice apparently. I'm not sure if it came across as more saccharine than the writers intended, or if it really is the perfect, ideal solution where everyone miraculously holds hands and sings kumbaya together. I hope it's the former honestly, makes for a more interesting story than ''see, being nice solves everything kids!''.
You seem to be lookings at all Templars as mage slaughters and persecuters and all mages as fearful and mistrusting of them.
This is not the case. The world is not that black and white.
I'm not talking about individual Templars, I'm talking about the Templar Order. Individuals can distance themselves from those policies, but they can't do it while still proudly bearing the standards and heraldry of the Order.
As for the mages, I obviously don't know about all of them. But how many mages does it take who resist being rounded up and placed under the "protection" of the Order, before things start breaking down? We know that when a significant number of mages survive, they do in fact resist the re-imposition of the Circles.
By that logic, so did all the "dangerous" mages.The mages aren't much more trustworthy in my books. If both sides are to endlessly air their grievances all the time, we might as well resume the War until everyone is dead, but that doesn't help anybody now does it?
Besides, the vast majority of the more corrupt elements of the Templars presumably died via an Inquisitor to the face over the course of the story, especially if they went to Therinfall redoubt. I suspect the remainder are less likely to be the assholes that made the rebellion what it was by their transgressions.
The trouble with that is that we know it's not the case. In Ferelden and Orlais, it was apparently a big deal to be let out for fresh air or shopping.Except Vivienne specifically says she is not exceptional in being able to leave. Montsimmard may be one of the more permissive Circles, of course. But such permission does happen.
Interestingly, Allying with the Templars and VIvienne becoming Divine seems to make such relations better. The mages in teh reformed Circle are given more freedoms and responsibilities, and Vivienne (a mage) maintains strong oversight over the reformed Templars.
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