I'm starting to lose any reasons to support Templars or Templar supporters in arguments. From what I've seen, they are willing to defend even genocide if it's against mages. Guess they aren't as reasonable as they claim
You realize Mage supporters are literally no different
And can we please stop the "genocide" argument in these M/T discussions
Yeah, that's one of the parts that made me go ''qué?''. Softened!Leliana almost gets rid of all the Chantry's accumulated baggage and prejudice overnight. just by being nice apparently. I'm not sure if it came across as more saccharine than the writers intended, or if it really is the perfect, ideal solution where everyone miraculously holds hands and sings kumbaya together. I hope it's the former honestly, makes for a more interesting story than ''see, being nice solves everything kids!''.
She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong.
This line of dialogue is incredibly vague and I can see where you'd think that Leliana just had an afternoon talk with the rival sects and boom, peace, love and understanding for everyone. The point is though, we have no idea how long these talks were. They could have taken months or even a year of constant negotiating, debate and peacemaking, which I assume to be what happened because there's no way that Bioware wanted us to think as you suggest, that she managed to solve the Chantry's baggage immediately after she was made Divine. So, no, I doubt that were meetings with these sects were effortless or were expected to be so.
You also have to factor in that the Chantry at this point really has nothing to throw at Leliana if they do decide to rebel. The Templars either no longer exist or are no longer under Chantry control, the Mages obviously won't support them and are likely to do whatever they can to keep Leliana in power, and the Inquisition, of course, has Leliana's support as well. At best, they can get a few small revolts started from the peasantry or conservative nobles, but that's about it.
Yeah, that's one of the parts that made me go ''qué?''. Softened!Leliana almost gets rid of all the Chantry's accumulated baggage and prejudice overnight. just by being nice apparently. I'm not sure if it came across as more saccharine than the writers intended, or if it really is the perfect, ideal solution where everyone miraculously holds hands and sings kumbaya together. I hope it's the former honestly, makes for a more interesting story than ''see, being nice solves everything kids!''.
I think a lot of it is the fact that a huge amount of the Chantry's deadwood has been swept away, and since the Inquisition and its mages are the rising star that might eclipse the Chantry, given time, it's a fair bit easier to convince the survivors of the Chantry to fall in line.
The "for now" is important. And I suspect that even softened Leliana is not above a bit of blackmail and so forth.
She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong.
This line of dialogue is incredibly vague and I can see where you'd think that Leliana just had an afternoon talk with the rival sects and boom, peace, love and understanding for everyone. The point is though, we have no idea how long these talks were. They could have taken months or even a year of constant negotiating, debate and peacemaking, which I assume to be what happened because there's no way that Bioware wanted us to think as you suggest, that she managed to solve the Chantry's baggage immediately after she was made Divine. So, no, I doubt that were meetings with these sects were effortless or were expected to be so.
You also have to factor in that the Chantry at this point really has nothing to throw at Leliana if they do decide to rebel. The Templars either no longer exist or are no longer under Chantry control, the Mages obviously won't support them and are likely to do whatever they can to keep Leliana in power, and the Inquisition, of course, has Leliana's support as well. At best, they can get a few small revolts started from the peasantry or conservative nobles, but that's about it.
Yeah, like I said, I think it comes across as more saccharine than the writers intended. It would be weird for all the other Divine slides to broadly be some good and some bad, and then Softened!Leliana can use her magical powers of friendship to make every nice people who hug each other.
At least I hope so. I wouldn't want Leliana to be given special treatment and have her own, perfect golden ending just because she's a fan favorite or whatever.
Wait, so Templar supporters try to defend bating up pregnant women? I've seen defending mge genocide and all sort of bad things from Templar supporters? Why are Templar supporters so much more unlikeable?
Or maybe people have not necessarily read the comic and are basing their viewpoints on Gregror from what they see in the game, where he does come off as a reasonable man for the most part.
Alright, lets talk about how she despises, or at the very belittles, apostate mages like Solas and Morrigan regardless of the fact that they'll proven themselves to be in fully control of their abilities and are unlikely to become possessed.
You'd think she'd respect the merit of people who've managed to successfully gain enough knowledge and magical power to be recognized as a venerable authority's, to the point where they are accepted into the Inquisition and Imperial Court, respectively, in spite of being apostates in first place.
I saw the explanation that she's afraid of them; I think that's possible. However, I always assumed that she more resented them, because they could be held up as examples of "Well these guys didn't live in Circles and they turned out just fine."
Are you serious? Practically everywhere I hear is that he Ferekden circle was one of the most LIBERAL and FREE circles? I didn't think Templar supporters would actually make stuff up
Where do you hear that? Not in Inquisition, that's for sure. 
The trouble with that is that we know it's not the case. In Ferelden and Orlais, it was apparently a big deal to be let out for fresh air or shopping.
And let's just pause to recall that we're talking about how generous it is that the templars allow an entire group of people occasional freedom of movement and completely on their own (ie, the templars') terms. Again, I guess mages should be grateful that on a good day they might be treated like human beings?
1) Vivienne was in Orlais, and it wasn't a big deal there. I mean, if she's going to know how any Circle works beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's the one she lives in. If you actually meant Kirkwall, two Circles being stricter isn't evidence they all were -- especially when we have it explicitly stated they were some of the worst for that.
2) This is irrelevant to the topic, and you're putting words in people's mouth.
I saw the explanation that she's afraid of them; I think that's possible. However, I always assumed that she more resented them, because they could be held up as examples of "Well these guys didn't live in Circles and they turned out just fine."
My thoughts exactly.
1) Vivienne was in Orlais, and it wasn't a big deal there. I mean, if she's going to know how any Circle works beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's the one she lives in. If you actually meant Kirkwall, two Circles being stricter isn't evidence they all were -- especially when we have it explicitly stated they were some of the worst for that.
Cole was at the circle in the White Spire in Orlais, and he starved to death forgotten. Vivienne herself says that all mages's circumstances are unique not only to the particular circle, but to the mage themselves. Mage Bethany has a better time at Kirkwall, for example, by virtue of being Hawke's little sister.
I haven't figured out why she seems to dislike Blackwall so much, though. While he definitely instigates some of it later, it seemed like she started being snide with him for no reason at the start. I coulda missed some banter, though. The playthrough I used her a ton I flipflopped between taking Blackwall and Cass a lot.
Cole was at the circle in the White Spire in Orlais, and he starved to death forgotten. Vivienne herself says that all mages's circumstances are unique not only to the particular circle, but to the mage themselves. Mage Bethany has a better time at Kirkwall, for example, by virtue of being Hawke's little sister.
I'd argue that him being forgotten doesn't mean that other mages weren't allowed to leave ... though the fact that it's possible suggests things weren't good there, for sure. And yes, every mage's experience was unique, but that only makes it more likely that Vivienne was correct and not all Circles operated like Ferelden's, for instance. Or that not all mages got treated like poor Cole.
I'd argue that him being forgotten doesn't mean that other mages weren't allowed to leave ... though the fact that it's possible suggests things weren't good there, for sure. And yes, every mage's experience was unique, but that only makes it more likely that Vivienne was correct and not all Circles operated like Ferelden's, for instance. Or that not all mages got treated like poor Cole.
It also shows that Vivienne is not the norm, and I don't think she'd argue that. It's hard to put up 'I was the mistress of a particularly powerful man in a nation that has traditionally allowed a role for an enchanter to preside at court' with 'I was poor and was left to die a slow miserable death' and 'I'm a mage in a nation that doesn't have a relevant role for mages in the political system' like Ferelden.
.. Why though? Sometimes people do get things right and things do work out well, whether through careful consideration or dumb luck. I still think we don't need to pander to the need to self-insert in an RPG. Everyone does not deserve a medal. As the late, great George Carlin said:
Because a video game is not an educational product, and nobody has the truth of these things in the first place, and it's not the f*cking place of a game to tell me that I - the player - are wrong in something related to a real-world issue. Within the confines of the fictional world, anything is fair game, sure, but if a plot connects strongly with real-world themes it becomes patronizing if the story takes a side.
It also shows that Vivienne is not the norm, and I don't think she'd argue that. It's hard to put up 'I was the mistress of a particularly powerful man in a nation that has traditionally allowed a role for an enchanter to preside at court' with 'I was poor and was left to die a slow miserable death' and 'I'm a mage in a nation that doesn't have a relevant role for mages in the political system' like Ferelden.
Of course she wouldn't argue that, she explicitly says every mage's experience is different. 
But are you suggesting she's lying when she said most Circles were permissive about living off-campus because of that?
I haven't figured out why she seems to dislike Blackwall so much, though. While he definitely instigates some of it later, it seemed like she started being snide with him for no reason at the start. I coulda missed some banter, though. The playthrough I used her a ton I flipflopped between taking Blackwall and Cass a lot.
Blackwall does make this comment.
But after that it's pretty much Vivienne constantly being condescending towards Blackwall for apparently no reason. That poor fella even tries to get her to explain why she hates him so much, but still just responds with more snark and vitriol. The only thing I can think of is that she figures that the Grey Wardens are nothing more then a group of outcasts, former sellswords and redemption seeking criminals, and thus she treats Blackwall like one. Or maybe Fiona soured her on the idea of Wardens?
I really don't know.
Of course she wouldn't argue that, she explicitly says every mage's experience is different.
I believe that's she's glossing over it to prove a point.
Yes, mages can theoretically go out with permission. You will even meet some at a point. That doesn't make the situation better, correct, or 'normal'.
Because a video game is not an educational product, and nobody has the truth of these things in the first place, and it's not the f*cking place of a game to tell me that I - the player - are wrong in something related to a real-world issue. Within the confines of the fictional world, anything is fair game, sure, but if a plot connects strongly with real-world themes it becomes patronizing if the story takes a side.
Well ... I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree with you there. But then, my ego's pretty healthy so I don't stress overmuch about being wrong in a game, or having a game espouse ideologically different standards than my own. I mean, you say yourself right here that nobody has the truth of these things. So they pick a side and run with it? So what?
I feel like it's far more patronizing to pander to the, "the player is never wrong" thing.
The thing is when Greggior yells at Ivring for wanting to give more mages permission to go to Ostgar I think this portrays him as unreasonable in this contexts. In fact I could not see him as a reasonable short, after I see that scene, along with him stopping Ivring from giving me information on what I might confront in the fade during my harrowing.Or maybe people have not necessarily read the comic and are basing their viewpoints on Gregror from what they see in the game, where he does come off as a reasonable man for the most part.
Blackwall does make this comment.
- Blackwall: Would you like a silk handkerchief to wipe the mud off your greaves, lady Vivienne?
- Vivienne: (Laughs.) It’s just mud! Mud bothers me as much as your clumsy mockery, which is to say, not at all.
But after that it's pretty much Vivienne constantly being condescending towards Blackwall for apparently no reason. That poor fella even tries to get her to explain why she hates him so much, but still just responds with more snark and vitriol. The only thing I can think of is that she figures that the Grey Wardens are nothing more then a group of outcasts, former sellswords and redemption seeking criminals, and thus she treats Blackwall like one. Or maybe Fiona soured her on the idea of Wardens?
I really don't know.
Yeah, I got that one too, but I thought she'd already started the snark train as early as Hinterlands with him.
I believe that's she's glossing over it to prove a point.
It's possible, of course. The problem imo is that we've seen two restrictive Circles first-hand (or close enough, with Kirkwall). We have Vivienne saying, "that wasn't the norm." But having only seen ones she names as outliers, it's hard to say how much she is, or isn't, fudging facts.
Because a video game is not an educational product, and nobody has the truth of these things in the first place, and it's not the f*cking place of a game to tell me that I - the player - are wrong in something related to a real-world issue. Within the confines of the fictional world, anything is fair game, sure, but if a plot connects strongly with real-world themes it becomes patronizing if the story takes a side.
This could not be more wrong. That's precisely what the 'place' of a story is.
That being said, the moral actually has to be true. And articulated well. Which, unfortunately, is not done too often.
By that logic, so did all the "dangerous" mages.
The trouble with that is that we know it's not the case. In Ferelden and Orlais, it was apparently a big deal to be let out for fresh air or shopping.
And let's just pause to recall that we're talking about how generous it is that the templars allow an entire group of people occasional freedom of movement and completely on their own (ie, the templars') terms. Again, I guess mages should be grateful that on a good day they might be treated like human beings?
We know the Lake Calenhad Circle is more strict than Vivienne described. We also saw that White Spire was as well. Particularly after Anders blew up the Chantry. But there are fifteen Circles throughout southern Thedas. What are their policies like?
Under Vivienne's rule, the Templars' terms are her terms. And she approves of excursions outside the CIrcle.
We know the Lake Calenhad Circle is more strict than Vivienne described. We also saw that White Spire was as well. Particularly after Anders blew up the Chantry. But there are fifteen Circles throughout southern Thedas. What are their policies like?
Under Vivienne's rule, the Templars' terms are her terms. And she approves of excursions outside the CIrcle.
Three restrictive circles have been seen, since Feledren didn't get changed untill Greggior is replaced in witch hunt, and the fact, I pointed out how restrictived he was when he yelled at Ivring for wanting to send more mages to Ostagar.
To make sure we're on the same page ... what Circle do we see besides Ferelden and Kirkwall? I'm not sure why you reiterate that Ferelden's was limited, we agree on that point.
I hunk someone who didn't even live in he circles during events of Asunder has no right to say the conditions weren't intolerable
She doesn't really say that, though. If you ask her point blank if the mages had cause to rebel, she doesn't say no. She says (paraphrasing) "Was that really the time?" No, she didn't suffer like a lot of mages did during that time, that's true, and can be more detached about it. (Though she DOES live in the Circle, at least part-time.)
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