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[Nefla]

Vivienne is the best ever, the end.

[AxholeRose]

I haven't figured out why she seems to dislike Blackwall so much, though. While he definitely instigates some of it later, it seemed like she started being snide with him for no reason at the start. I coulda missed some banter, though. The playthrough I used her a ton I flipflopped between taking Blackwall and Cass a lot.

 

I think she just sees him for what he is.  She is, after all, a master in the Game, and that includes seeing through peoples' masks.  I find their banter to be hilarious, and have set up Blackwall to be my main tank because of this.  The third would probably be Sera because I never get tired of watching her moon Vivienne right after a tough battle.

[Ryriena]

White sphir, Kirkwall, and Feldren.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

To make sure we're on the same page ... what Circle do we see besides Ferelden and Kirkwall? I'm not sure why you reiterate that Ferelden's was limited, we agree on that point.
 

 
She doesn't really say that, though. If you ask her point blank if the mages had cause to rebel, she doesn't say no. She says (paraphrasing) "Was that really the time?" No, she didn't suffer like a lot of mages did during that time, that's true, and can be more detached about it. (Though she DOES live in the Circle, at least part-time.)

She calls them malcontents and her tone when speaking about the events of Asunder indicate she thinks the increasing restrictions were ok mr the mages were whiners for not just taking it.

[Xilizhra]

The rebellion didn't happen until the templars started to go really crazy because Lambert was clamping down in reaction to the Tranquility cure. At that point, the mages were in serious trouble no matter what; there would be no other time to break free. It had nothing to do with anything to do with Anders.

[Sarielle]

White sphir, Kirkwall, and Feldren.

 

If you're talking about Asunder, I don't read any of the novels/comics. I'm interested in the universe, but not that interested, lol. Regardless, it doesn't really refute the fact that some Circles operated different -- and Asunder takes place after Anders pulled his stunt. Vivienne doesn't specify if she's talking pre- or post-Anders when talking about permissions. It's totally possible she only meant before all that.

 

She calls them malcontents and her tone when speaking about the events of Asunder indicate she thinks the increasing restrictions were ok mr the mages were whiners for not just taking it.

 

I'm gonna have to make another video of a conversation, aren't I? lol She does call them malcontents, but she also specifically says "By all means protest mistreatment by the Templars. Just don't do it in such a way that suggests to the average citizen that mages support wholesale slaughter." (That's paraphrased, but that's the gist.) Nowhere does she suggest the extra restrictions were "OK," unless you can point me to a conversation I missed.

 

C'mon guys. Vivi has plenty of actual flaws. She doesn't need words put in her mouth

[Iakus]

I think she just sees him for what he is.  She is, after all, a master in the Game, and that includes seeing through peoples' masks.  I find their banter to be hilarious, and have set up Blackwall to be my main tank because of this.  The third would probably be Sera because I never get tired of watching her moon Vivienne right after a tough battle.

That is most liekly the case.

 

ANd it shows Vivienne's uglier side as well.

[Iakus]

She calls them malcontents and her tone when speaking about the events of Asunder indicate she thinks the increasing restrictions were ok mr the mages were whiners for not just taking it.

 

Actually she was saying that a violent revolution was wrong tack to take, as it only reinforces people's fear of mages.  

[Xilizhra]

Actually she was saying that a violent revolution was wrong tack to take, as it only reinforces people's fear of mages.  

Well, it was violent revolution or violent pummeling/Tranquility/etc. The templars struck the first blow.

[Iakus]

Well, it was violent revolution or violent pummeling/Tranquility/etc. The templars struck the first blow.

Vivienne wasn't made Tranquil.

[AresKeith]

If you're talking about Asunder, I don't read any of the novels/comics. I'm interested in the universe, but not that interested, lol. Regardless, it doesn't really refute the fact that some Circles operated different -- and Asunder takes place after Anders pulled his stunt. Vivienne doesn't specify if she's talking pre- or post-Anders when talking about permissions. It's totally possible she only meant before all that.

 

She's most likely referring to Pre-Anders because it makes sense for them to crack down after that 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Actually she was saying that a violent revolution was wrong tack to take, as it only reinforces people's fear of mages.  

 

All the mages did was leave the Chantry. Now of course they should have expected some form of retaliation, but it was ultimately the Templars that equipped the Idiot Ball and decided to start a genocidal war. 

 

Idiot Ball equipped. 

 

- 50 Cunning for entire Templar Order. 

[Sarielle]

Vivienne wasn't made Tranquil.

 

Nor is the Inquisitor (as a mage), and presumably not others from the Circle they went to the conclave to represent.

 

 

All the mages did was leave the Chantry. Now of course they should have expected some form of retaliation, but it was ultimately the Templars that equipped the Idiot Ball and decided to start a genocidal war. 

 

Cmon, million topics on the justification of this. People aren't saying whether Vivienne was right, they're saying she wasn't all "well lolz suck it up other mages" as other posters have suggested.

[AresKeith]

White sphir, Kirkwall, and Feldren.

 

White Spire was the result of Anders and Lambert becoming in-charge, Kirkwall was said even by Bioware to be the worst and not even close to the norm, Ferelden's Circle is still one of the more tame circles 

[Ryriena]

All the mages did was voting to leave the chantry, the Templars were the ones that started the bloody war. Although, no it was all the mages fault the Templars did nothing wrong according to her. Rolls eyes

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

I suspect Vivienne wouldn't be as supportive if she also had to deal with Lambert's restrictions. I also find his similar to how Rhys calls out Wynne as she has more freedom than most mages

[Ryriena]

White Spire was the result of Anders and Lambert becoming in-charge, Kirkwall was said even by Bioware to be the worst and not even close to the norm, Ferelden's Circle is still one of the more tame circles

Tell that to freaking Cole, since your justifying his death at White Spire. I find that a laughable you think a circle that has a knight Comander that yelled at Ivring for wanting more mages and was able to beat a pregnant mage and still get to be a Knight Comander as one of the tamer circles. Keep trying to justify Lamberts actions by saying it was Anders fault, since he mentioned It was him wanting to hide the Tranquil cure from the mages as his actions.

[Sarielle]

All the mages did was voting to leave the chantry, the Templars were the ones that started the bloody war. Although, no it was all the mages fault the Templars did nothing wrong according to her. Rolls eyes

 

Also not at all what she says, unless you'd like to link me to a conversation that I've missed in all my playthroughs. Or I'd settle for a transcript.

 

She does say Templars are necessary, "flawed though they may be." She does say the mages' timing was terrible, and that they thought only of their own griefs and not what rebelling would do to mages as a whole, pitting them against each other.

 

Can we criticize her for things she actually says/does, rather than make stuff up? It's seriously OK if you dislike her for her stance on Circles. I dunno why people feel like they gotta pretend they dislike her for other reasons, though, or if they're trying to convince others or themselves that that's not the reason they hate her.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

People seem to forget how the mages likely wouldn't have rebelled if Lambert didn't try to kill them all. Really, I'm surprised they didn't rebel sooner given how obvious it was he ws going to turn the circles into prisons.

I am disgusted that people actually like Lambert.

[Sarielle]

People seem to forget how the mages likely wouldn't have rebelled if Lambert didn't try to kill them all. Really, I'm surprised they didn't rebel sooner given how obvious it was he ws going to turn the circles into prisons.

I am disgusted that people actually like Lambert.

 

I am disgusted if that's what you actually took from this conversation lol

[ComedicSociopathy]

Cmon, million topics on the justification of this. People aren't saying whether Vivienne was right, they're saying she wasn't all "well lolz suck it up other mages" as other posters have suggested.

 

Cole flat out states that she believes that the Templars were right in what they did. Of course he doesn't specify on what exactly she believes that the Templars were right about, but since the they were talking about the beginnings of the Mage-Templar War in Asunder we can make an educated guess. 

 

• Vivienne: Cole... you were the Ghost of the Spire.
• Cole: Yes.
• Vivienne: Your murders stirred the Circle into a frenzy. That was what brought the attention of the templars.
• Cole: The templars hurt mages.
• Vivienne: Stupid, panicking mages who became a danger to themselves and others because of you!
• Vivienne: You brought matters in the Spire to a head. Without you, there would be no rebellion.
• Vivienne: Countless deaths are on your head, demon. Are you satisfied with the result of your protection?
• Cole: You're lying. You're... twist the words right, and it will show its true form. Blood or banishment, either will suffice.
• Cole: You like the templars. You think they were right.

 

Honestly, the problem is whether were talking Pre-Kirkwall Explosion mage conditions or Post-Kirkwall Explosion mage conditions. If it's the former then you can argue that perhaps the mages in less awful Circles are being babies and unpractical about their situation and Vivienne's right, but if it's the latter with Lambert's crackdown of rights that the mages have always held, then Vivienne is indeed being a hypocritical ass whose ignoring the crimes committed by the Order during Asunder. 

[Iakus]

I suspect Vivienne wouldn't be as supportive if she also had to deal with Lambert's restrictions. I also find his similar to how Rhys calls out Wynne as she has more freedom than most mages

 

I think Vivienne would not have stood for it, no.

 

But I think she would have a different way to deal with Lambert.

People seem to forget how the mages likely wouldn't have rebelled if Lambert didn't try to kill them all. Really, I'm surprised they didn't rebel sooner given how obvious it was he ws going to turn the circles into prisons.

I am disgusted that people actually like Lambert.

Lambert tried to kill them because 1) Fiona hijacked the Conclave for her own agenda and 2) Adrien staged a murder. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

Lambert tried to kill them because 1) Fiona hijacked the Conclave for her own agenda and 2) Adrien staged a murder. 

 

Cole says otherwise. 

 

• Cole: You're a better Seeker than Lambert. You care about everyone.
• Cassandra: You knew Lord Seeker Lambert?
• Cole: I killed him. He cared more about stopping mages than protecting people.
• Cassandra: You... killed the Lord Seeker?
• Cole: Pathetic mages. Crush them at Andoral's Reach or starve them out. Doesn't matter which.
• Cole: I need an example, Seekers succeeding, seizing power. Overthrow the Divine, triumphant in the eyes of the Maker.
• Cassandra: I... am uncertain whether to believe you.
• Cole: You believe I killed him.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Don't forget his backstory. He was a Mage hater regardless. He was Meredith 2.0, especially since he let her ge away with her abuses

[KaiserShep]

Love or hate Cole, you gotta love how he pretty much lays it all out for you.