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[Bad King]

I didnt said she betrayed because she helped the mages, I said she betrayed them because she sent a assassin to KILL the templars, if this is not betrayal I dont know what is.

And Lambert didnt betrayed the Divine, the meeting was not about mages leaving the Chantry, it was about reforms of the Circle of Magi, Fiona changed the subject. And the attack came after the mages refused to hand over Rhys, who was a suspect of murder (thanks to Adrian).

But no he wasnt right to call the attack, he was tricked by  Adrian and without his attack the mages probably would not revolt, but he didnt betrayed the Divine and he was not the sole agent for the rebellion to start.

 

Yes, she sent the assassin to kill Templars that were committing treason by being accomplice to an insubordinate seeker - yes they were misled, but they were still committing treason. The mages were free to discuss what they wanted, the Divine didn't say "let them have the meeting but forbid them from discussing X". Calling for a vote =/= declaring a mage rebellion, particularly as only a minority would have voted in favour of it, and that minority would have had to accept a vote against it. Also, he ended the meeting simply because they weren't discussing what he wanted, and the mages were acting lawfully when they opposed him for trying to end the meeting and seize Rhys (despite Fiona assuring him that they'd investigate the claim against Rhys in a rational manner).

 

But anyway, we are getting off topic here, it seems Vivienne is being forgotten!

[Assassino01]

But anyway, we are getting off topic here, it seems Vivienne is being forgotten!

 

Vivienne being forgotten is not such a bad thing.

[Boost32]

Vivienne being forgotten is not such a bad thing.

SHe is to smart to be forgotten, she will always land on her feet.

[Iakus]

Fearing spirits is one thing. Wanting them dead in the abstract is another. But actually trying to entrap one into getting killed in the party? That's the kind of thing that should get you kicked out at minimum.

Not that Cassandra or Cullen are blameless.

 

 

SO, what do you think about Zeveran trying to kill you in DAO?  THe demons tempting your copanions in Night Terrors in Da2.

 

Oh, and to continue the Vivienne/Cole talk:

 

Vivienne: You are no longer a danger of being bound by enemies of the Inquisition, demon?

Cole: Yes. I am no danger now.
Vivienne: No more than you were before.
Cole: You were worried for me.
Vivienne: I was concerned about you, demon.  You have grown adept at killing. If you cannot be gone, I would prefer you remain pointed at the enemy.
Cole: No.  You were worried.  The part of you that forgets I'm me cared.  You want it to go away.
Cole: You think caring makes you weak.  Don't worry.  I won't tell anyone.

[Xilizhra]

SO, what do you think about Zeveran trying to kill you in DAO?

I kicked his ass. Then he surrendered. Not remotely the same as being able to do nothing at all about Vivienne.

 

 

THe demons tempting your copanions in Night Terrors in Da2.

Mind control.

 

 

Vivienne: You are no longer a danger of being bound by enemies of the Inquisition, demon?

Cole: Yes. I am no danger now.
Vivienne: No more than you were before.
Cole: You were worried for me.
Vivienne: I was concerned about you, demon.  You have grown adept at killing. If you cannot be gone, I would prefer you remain pointed at the enemy.
Cole: No.  You were worried.  The part of you that forgets I'm me cared.  You want it to go away.
Cole: You think caring makes you weak.  Don't worry.  I won't tell anyone.

That doesn't change the gutting of any possible roleplayed response to what Vivienne tried.

[Assassino01]

SHe is to smart to be forgotten, she will always land on her feet.

Really? Because when I play Inquisition I forget about her entirely. She's never in my party. I never consider her opinions on anything, and at the end of the game all her power and influence (if she had any to begin with) is gone.

[Boost32]

Really? Because when I play Inquisition I forget about her entirely. She's never in my party. I never consider her opinions on anything, and at the end of the game all her power and influence (if she had any to begin with) is gone.

Do you really think so? Lets just wait and see.

[Xilizhra]

Do you really think so? Lets just wait and see.

Well, hardened Leliana as Divine will probably lead to that outcome.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

We can have celene die which weakens her by removing a ruler interested in magic, we can have Leliana as divine which also removes some power, and we can give the normal wyvern heart.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

We can have celene die which weakens her by removing a ruler interested in magic, we can have Leliana as divine which also removes some power, and we can give the normal wyvern heart.

Don't forget we can have the mages form the College of Enchanters, leaving the Circle of Magi disbanded and thus Vivienne has no rank among the mages anymore.

[Boost32]

We can have celene die which weakens her by removing a ruler interested in magic, we can have Leliana as divine which also removes some power, and we can give the normal wyvern heart.

And do you think Gaspard would not like Vivienne as a ally, specially if Briala have the blackmail material? And when Celene dies, she has a banter where she gained influence even with Celene death.
Do you think she cant make her own College with her loyalist mages if Leliana is the Divine? And sell enchanted items or magical support to the nobility?
And dont you think she can lie to Bastien family, saying how she tried to cure but it failed? How the family would know it was a normal Wyvern heart? Only the Inquisitor and Vivienne knows the truth.

[Xilizhra]

And do you think Gaspard would not like Vivienne as a ally, specially if Briala have the blackmail material? And when Celene dies, she has a banter where she gained influence even with Celene death.
Do you think she cant make her own College with her loyalist mages if Leliana is the Divine? And sell enchanted items or magical support to the nobility?
And dont you think she can lie to Bastien family, saying how she tried to cure but it failed? How the family would know it was a normal Wyvern heart? Only the Inquisitor and Vivienne knows the truth.

Well, if Leliana is hardened, she will kill Vivienne if Vivienne seriously interferes with her plans.

[Assassino01]

Do you really think so? Lets just wait and see.

I really do think so.

 

Vivienne's power is based around her relationship with Duke whatshisname, who is a respected member on the council of heralds, and thus one of the most powerful people in Orlais, and by extension Southern Thedas. Duke whatshisname's favour is what allowed Vivienne to become first enchanter, and Empress Celene probably appointed her court enchanter to reward or gain favour with the the duke.

 

Now, if you play the game right there is no circle for Vivienne to be first enchanter of. Morrigan has already usurped Vivienne's position at Celene's side, and even if she has not you can have Celene removed from power. The Duke will die in every play-through, entirely removing Vivienne's power base, and also making her entirely uninteresting to the Imperial court (nobody cares about the former mistress of a dead duke), and also removes most (if not all) of her fortunes, as she can no longer access the duke's estates or funds.

 

Add to this that she is not like by many (her attitude no doubt), and that the Inquisitor (the most powerful person south of Tevinter) can be very much at odds with her.

 

No, Vivienne is not going to bounce back from that. Not in any believable way anyway. But the writers don't seem to go with "believable" with Viv anyway.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Vivienne is the best ever, the end.

 

Agreed.  She's one of my favorite characters in the game for sure.  She offers a unique perspective on many of the events that transpire.  Beneath her nobily, gamey exterior she's a good woman.  Plus she's irresistably sassy.

[Boost32]

Well, if Leliana is hardened, she will kill Vivienne if Vivienne seriously interferes with her plans.

And in what way she would interfere with Leliana's plans? Nothing that I said does that.

No, Vivienne is not going to bounce back from that. Not in any believable way anyway. But the writers don't seem to go with "believable" with Viv anyway.

Ofc she can, I listed several ways, but as I said, lets wait and see.

Edit: forgot to say, Celene didnt Vivienne from being her advisor, Vivienne herself left and (as Cole says) Celene didnt want Vivienne to leave and respected her, so if Celene is alive, Vivienne will come on top.

[BSpud]

Really? Because when I play Inquisition I forget about her entirely. She's never in my party. I never consider her opinions on anything, and at the end of the game all her power and influence (if she had any to begin with) is gone.

 

Yeah, she's a nobody in my game, too. Not even good enough to be hated or frustrated by.

[Assassino01]

Ofc she can, I listed several ways, but as I said, lets wait and see.

Edit: forgot to say, Celene didnt Vivienne from being her advisor, Vivienne herself left and (as Cole says) Celene didnt want Vivienne to leave and respected her, so if Celene is alive, Vivienne will come on top.

 

I did not believe the ways in which you listed were especially viable, and sufficiently covered in my longer post.

 

To your last point. If Celene stays on the throne there is no guarantee that Vivienne would be welcomed back as court enchanter. There is no political gain for Celene in keeping her in the position. Duke Bastion is dead, no need to carry favor with a dead man. Vivienne is quite possibly no longer first enchanter. So no favor with the Circle. She holds no lands or noble titles that would be of use to Celene, and if Vivienne is on bad terms with the Inquisitor I very much doubt Celene would dare to associate with her further.

 

Neither can she tempt Celene with knowledge of magic. Vivienne's narrow and conservative view of the magical arts is what allowed Morrigan to gain such influence after all.

 

Even IF (it is indeed an "if" deserving of capitalized bold letters) she should maintain her position as court enchanter her position is still greatly diminished by the removal of her only real tangible source of influence and power: Duke Bastion (or whatever his name is).

[Boost32]

I did not believe the ways in which you listed were especially viable, and sufficiently covered in my longer post.

Of course you dismissed everything, you dislike her and will not accept her rising back to power, even if its explained. As I said before, lets wait and see.
We are going into a circular argument now, Im leaving this discussion.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I did not believe the ways in which you listed were especially viable, and sufficiently covered in my longer post.

 

To your last point. If Celene stays on the throne there is no guarantee that Vivienne would be welcomed back as court enchanter. There is no political gain for Celene in keeping her in the position. Duke Bastion is dead, no need to carry favor with a dead man. Vivienne is quite possibly no longer first enchanter. So no favor with the Circle. She holds no lands or noble titles that would be of use to Celene, and if Vivienne is on bad terms with the Inquisitor I very much doubt Celene would dare to associate with her further.

 

Neither can she tempt Celene with knowledge of magic. Vivienne's narrow and conservative view of the magical arts is what allowed Morrigan to gain such influence after all.

 

Even IF (it is indeed an "if" deserving of capitalized bold letters) she should maintain her position as court enchanter her position is still greatly diminished by the removal of her only real tangible source of influence and power: Duke Bastion (or whatever his name is).

Well Vivienne does say the Empress will need help if Celene lives and Leliana is Divine during the celebration so take what you will.

[Assassino01]

Well Vivienne does say the Empress will need help if Celene lives and Leliana is Divine during the celebration so take what you will.

I was not aware of that.

 

If Vivienne's attempt to weasel her way into empress Celene's good graces is done with the same tact and style she uses in order to gain favour with the Inquisitor though... I wouldn't be too worried.

[Assassino01]

Of course you dismissed everything, you dislike her and will not accept her rising back to power, even if its explained. As I said before, lets wait and see.
We are going into a circular argument now, Im leaving this discussion.

 

You are equally quick to dismiss my arguments, without presenting anything compelling (or anything at all) to counter them. Instead you simply invent reasons for my dismissal of the character's abilities. 

 

If we are to "wait and see" on every issue then this forum would be rather dull. The discussions are sort of the point. Anyhow, I doubt Vivienne shall have anything more than a passing role in any subsequent Dragon Age game.

[Ryzaki]

Wait...you guys really think someone who climbed her way to the top is just going to what? Surrender and give up because it's a bit harder to gain more influence?

 

Vivienne strikes me as the type to roll with the punches if she has to.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Just noticed something about Vivienne in the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts quest. No matter choices you take and which ruler you put on the throne, her approval doesn't change. Allow Celene to get killed. Nothing. Let Briala control Gaspard. Nothing.

 

Strange, yeah. You'd think you she would get some kind of disapproval response if you kill Celene, but I then again, Vivienne does think that empathy and concern for others is a weakness, and Celene did pass her over for Morrigan as her personal court wizard. 

 

Does she say anything about the aftermath of the quest if Celene gets killed?

[thesuperdarkone2]

You are equally quick to dismiss my arguments, without presenting anything compelling (or anything at all) to counter them. Instead you simply invent reasons for my dismissal of the character's abilities. 

 

If we are to "wait and see" on every issue then this forum would be rather dull. The discussions are sort of the point. Anyhow, I doubt Vivienne shall have anything more than a passing role in any subsequent Dragon Age game.

It's boost. He outright admitted his assumptions don't have any evidence. At least people like me use facts to support arguments rather than assumptions.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Just noticed something about Vivienne in the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts quest. No matter choices you take and which ruler you put on the throne, her approval doesn't change. Allow Celene to get killed. Nothing. Let Briala control Gaspard. Nothing.
 
Strange, yeah. You'd think you she would get some kind of disapproval response if you kill Celene, but I then again, Vivienne does think that empathy and concern for others is a weakness, and Celene did pass her over for Morrigan as her personal court wizard. 
 
Does she say anything about the aftermath of the quest if Celene gets killed?

Is something similar also said in he party at the end if celene dies?