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[Poledo]

Recently I decided not to recruit her at all during a play through. Didn't even notice she was gone.

[Iakus]

The "twist the words right and it will reveal it's true form; blood or banishment either will suffice" thing?

 

My take on it is this:  She thinks he's a demon and is trying to trick him into revealing himself so that they can kill the demon.  Since he's not a demon, she doesn't try to kill him.  And, after his personal quest, she realizes that he's not a threat anymore and then she starts to care about his well-being. 

That's exactly what I was thinking as well

[Iakus]

Same here. I tend to avoid talking to her at all, and I almost never take her with me. If I do, I rationalize that my Inquisitor takes her sh*t in order to find out what she's up to, which is unfortunately necessary because I can't afford to not know with her.

 

Given how specific my various Inquisitors' preferences are, I have a lot of somewhat antagonistic debate with at least two followers in each game. I enjoy that. It sharpens the profiles of both the NPC an my Inquisitor, and I usually respect them in spite of our disagreements, with Cassandra being the best example. Vivienne? Ideological opposition does not prevent being on good terms. Condescension does.   

I went into DAI not expecting to like Vivienne much.  But to my surprise she grew on me.  I don't necessarilly agree with all she says; she can be petty, is more than a little power hungry, and treats several members of the Inquisition like sh-...cr-...garbage (Blackwall in particular)  ANd is totally immersed in Orlesian politics.

 

Still, she makes cogent arguments for the need to look after mages, beyond "Argh!  Tevinter!  Argh! blood magic!" (looking at you, Fenris)   She doesn't hate mages or magic, but she's aware of magic's dangers in ways only a mage can truly understand.

[Personette]

I like Vivienne. She reminds me a lot of Morrigan, only less evil, and more neutral. An all round likeable character, from a real person's view. Only anyone who exists in the world Vivienne exists in, can understandably hate her. Real people who hate her are just crybabies.

 

 

 

I think there's some truth here. Vivienne/Morrigan are sort of opposite extremes--& I absolutely ADORE Morrigan. Anything Morrigan does is cool by me. Even things that I completely LOATHE when Vivienne does them. When Vivienne insults the companions, I think, "Never bringing you along again." When Morrigan insults the companions, I think, "She just needs a hug."

 

I guess they're both people who seem to have grown up in a hostile environment--to have built a tough shell as a response to some level of abuse (we only get a hint of Vivienne's backstory, more of Morrigan's obviously)--and they're both different flavors of 'uncompromising'. But Morrigan's coping technique is self-isolation, which I have sympathy with. Vivienne's is to acquire power & control others, which I don't. 

 

 

 
 

[Xilizhra]

Xil, I've read that piece of banter at least 6 times now and I, for the life of me, cannot understand where you see Vivienne trying to kill Cole.  Can you explain to me what it is that you are seeing?  Because all I see is Vivienne realizing that Cole was the Ghost of the Spire and then condemning him for being the cause of the rebellion.  I don't see anything about her trying to get him killed.

Because Cole specifically says that she's trying to get Cole to do something demony, at which point he can be killed.

 

 

The "twist the words right and it will reveal it's true form; blood or banishment either will suffice" thing?

 

My take on it is this:  She thinks he's a demon and is trying to trick him into revealing himself so that they can kill the demon.  Since he's not a demon, she doesn't try to kill him.  And, after his personal quest, she realizes that he's not a threat anymore and then she starts to care about his well-being. 

We had already established that he wasn't a demon far earlier. Vivienne's paranoia can clearly manifest itself in potentially fatal ways.

[abisha]

she is fine for that current age, nobility was cold and "appearance only" they made her perfect like she was time traveled from ages past.

I dare say they made her perfect, unlike those others that are total out of place and to "modern" vision for time line.

[Iakus]

Because Cole specifically says that she's trying to get Cole to do something demony, at which point he can be killed.

 

"twist the words right, and it will show its true form"

 

She thinks Cole is already a demon.  Vivienne is tying to protect the Inquisitor.  She's wrong, but her intentions are in the right place.

 

 

We had already established that he wasn't a demon far earlier. Vivienne's paranoia can clearly manifest itself in potentially fatal ways.

 

Actually, Cole's status was very much a question for a while.  Spirit, demon, or something else.  Heck even for a spirit Cole shows some unique traits.  And given the Breach and sheer number of demons infesting Thedas (including spirits twisted into demons) as well as Cole's status as the Ghost of White Spire, it's understandable that her thoughts tend towards "demon!"

 

In fact, Solas and Varric are the only companions that seem to accept Cole immediately.  Sera, Dorian, Cassandra, etc. are all very cautious about him.

[JosieRevisited]

I found Vivienne highly amusing, actually. I never brought Dorian to the field so didn't see that particular bit, but her conversations with some of the other characters are just classic. 

[LOLandStuff]

 

We had already established that he wasn't a demon far earlier. Vivienne's paranoia can clearly manifest itself in potentially fatal ways.

 

You established that, and Solas with his Fade fetish. Some players might still view him as a demon and a threat.

She's not paranoid, she's cautious. And I'm sure she's not losing sleep over it, else she wouldn't be traveling around with Cole.

But you're just finding absurd reasons to hate her for the sake of it.

[Assassino01]

I'd say that the worst case scenario for Vivienne would be if you:

• Ally with the rebel mages
• Put Gaspard on the Orlesian Throne
• Put a 'hardened' Leliana on the Sunburst Throne

In this case, the circles get disbanded, so she loses out on her loyalist powerbase and the opportunity to be First Enchanter.  Without Celene, she loses out on her prestige from the Orlesian Court and, since Gaspard despises The Game, she'll likely find few allies there.  And, with Leliana as Divine, she'll not only see the system that she supports completely torn apart, but if she openly opposes Leliana, she'll likely be killed.  I suspect that the best she can do is retire to whatever estate she can afford with whatever Bastien left her and live off of that. 

 

I agree with that assessment.Even should you put Celene on the throne her position is fragile without duke Bastien's weight behind her. 

 

Morrigan was Celene's personally Arcane Advisor. Vivienne was the Court Enchanter. Those are two different positions. Morrigan seems to have handled only Celene's magically affairs and questions. Vivienne, on the other hand, handled the entire courts magically affairs, and that includes the Council of Heralds. That's a prime position because it allows the Court Enchanter to meet and form ties and connections with all the powerful people of Orlais.

So unless Morrigan's Arcane Advisor role gets expanded to the entire court, if she actually goes back to Orlais after the game's events anyway, or Gaspard decides to replace her, Vivienne will most likely go back to her job as Court Enchanter after she leaves the Inquisition.

 

As I keep saying. Without Duke Bastien her position as court enchanter means nothing. Without his wealth and influence behind her words the title: Court Enchanter, simply means a mage who is a glorified jester. One who entertains the court. Should she manage to retain the position it would not translate into actual power. Especially seeing as Celene evidently does not find her interesting at all.

 

Morrigan was able to gain power because she could indulge Celene's interest in the occult. Vivienne because as long as she was Bastien's official mistress her words had weight behind them. Vivienne without Bastien is simply a rude conservative mage. Those the court can find anywhere.

 

 

 

 

Everyone has a use in the Game, especially one as influential as Vivienne. She might have gotten the Court Enchanter position because of her relationship with Bastien, but she was only able to keep it by forging connections with the rest of the Court and making a great deal of people respeact and/or fear her.

 

 

Without Bastien she holds no influence or power at all. Anyone who respected her did so because they feared the Duke, and anyone who fears her would happily tear into her now that her power is mostly gone. 

 

The players of the Game might have no use for simple affection or friendship, but they do have use for people that have power and influence. Which is something that Vivienne has in spades whether you like her or not. This is greatly shown by her possibly openly killing a noble at a party and handling Bastiens affairs after his death, even though he was married and other family to do so.

 

 

As previously mentioned. All her power and influence is tied to Bastien. Once he is gone so is her power. She can kill a Marquis because the protective hand of a duke, just like Hawke can kill a Baron in MOA without anyone caring since Prosper allows it. 

 

Even with the death of Bastien, she was able to twist the events to endear herself to the family more so. That includes his pious noble nephew(?) and the very influential Grand Cleric. So even after his death, Vivienne had enough power, influence, and sway to make it possible for her to be a candidate for the Divine, even though she was never apart of the Chantry.

 

 

She was allowed to arrange his funeral, yes. But that does not mean she gains any power from doing so. All of Bastien's lands will pass to his heirs, which do not include her (since she is a mage), and as previously mentioned, friendship means nothing to the nobles of Orlais if you do not have power and wealth behind you. She can only gain power with the aid of the Inquisition. 
 
 

It was so hard to reinstate that family because they in no way proved they should be reinstated to nobility. That meant that the Inquisitor and Josie had to jump through hoops, call in all sorts of favors, and pull a lot of strings to make it possible. Which, in the end of the day, shows that it's possible to become a noble if you throw around enough influence and have the connections.

With that in mind, I want to ask you a question. What do you think would be harder for a mage to become: a land owning noble or the leader of the largest religion in Thedas (which also happens to be the most influential title someone could ever hold)?

After being a strong possible candidate for the Divine, even though she should have never been a contender in the first place, getting raised to nobility would be a walk in the park.

 

 

I think it is more or less equally hard to become a land owning noble as a mage, and divine as a mage. The former would require either a decree from the ruler of the nation granting an exception to the law, or a change of the law, and the second would require the Chantry to be desperate enough to take such a step. Neither is likely to happen without the person in question having the support of a massively powerful organization such as the Inquisition backing them.

 

The only reason Viv can become Divine in Inquisition is because the Chantry is in shambles. Most senior Grand Clerics are dead, the Templars are decimated, Seekers destroyed. They desperately need to support of the Inquisition to regain their former power and will do anything they think will get them into the good graces of the Inquisitor. 

 

Becoming a landed noble as a mage though? Who gains from that? Giving an elf (if Briala is made a noble) land is bad enough. But a mage? Doubtful. 

[daveliam]

Because Cole specifically says that she's trying to get Cole to do something demony, at which point he can be killed.

 

We had already established that he wasn't a demon far earlier. Vivienne's paranoia can clearly manifest itself in potentially fatal ways.

 

Well, like iakus said, it's because she thinks he is a demon.  We've never established what Cole really is.  I'm 60 hours into my third playthrough and I don't what he is.  My best description would be "some kind of spirit, I think".  Vivienne thinks he is a demon and is trying to get the demon to reveal itself so that it can be destroyed.  I think your bias against the character is causing you to attribute a motivation that's not actually there.  You seem to think that she knows he's not a demon and is trying to trick him into a misstep in which case she will pretend he's a demon and then kill him.  We've got, literally, no evidence of that.  In fact, in a follow up banter, once she knows that he's not a threat anymore, Cole exposes that she's actually concerned for him.  I think you've got the wrong read on this situation. 

[Kevorka]

Yes she only wants to make things the way they were. But if she becomes divine she becomes a ******.

[Sarielle]

 Personette, on 03 Mar 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

I guess they're both people who seem to have grown up in a hostile environment--to have built a tough shell as a response to some level of abuse (we only get a hint of Vivienne's backstory, more of Morrigan's obviously)--and they're both different flavors of 'uncompromising'. But Morrigan's coping technique is self-isolation, which I have sympathy with. Vivienne's is to acquire power & control others, which I don't. 

 

Imo this is pretty darn insightful.

 

As to this banter:

 

 

 

• Vivienne: Cole... you were the Ghost of the Spire.
• Cole: Yes.
• Vivienne: Your murders stirred the Circle into a frenzy. That was what brought the attention of the templars.
• Cole: The templars hurt mages.
• Vivienne: Stupid, panicking mages who became a danger to themselves and others because of you!
• Vivienne: You brought matters in the Spire to a head. Without you, there would be no rebellion.
• Vivienne: Countless deaths are on your head, demon. Are you satisfied with the result of your protection?
• Cole: You're lying. You're... twist the words right, and it will show its true form. Blood or banishment, either will suffice.
• Cole: You like the templars. You think they were right.

 

 

... I'm interpreting "blood or banishment" to mean she wants him either killed or sent back into the Fade; and the "You like the templars. You think they were right" to mean about how the templars viewed Cole.

 

And this:

 

 

Vivienne: You are no longer a danger of being bound by enemies of the Inquisition, demon?

Cole: Yes. I am no danger now.
Vivienne: No more than you were before.
Cole: You were worried for me.
Vivienne: I was concerned about you, demon.  You have grown adept at killing. If you cannot be gone, I would prefer you remain pointed at the enemy.
Cole: No.  You were worried.  The part of you that forgets I'm me cared.  You want it to go away.
Cole: You think caring makes you weak.  Don't worry.  I won't tell anyone.

 

 

... shows that her views can evolve, and that she's not completely devoid of empathy/incapable of caring for others. I mean, if we accept Cole is right about her wanting to kill him, we have to accept he's right about her caring about him.

[lil yonce]

Well, like iakus said, it's because she thinks he is a demon.  We've never established what Cole really is.  I'm 60 hours into my third playthrough and I don't what he is.  My best description would be "some kind of spirit, I think".  Vivienne thinks he is a demon and is trying to get the demon to reveal itself so that it can be destroyed.  I think your bias against the character is causing you to attribute a motivation that's not actually there.  You seem to think that she knows he's not a demon and is trying to trick him into a misstep in which case she will pretend he's a demon and then kill him.  We've got, literally, no evidence of that.  In fact, in a follow up banter, once she knows that he's not a threat anymore, Cole exposes that she's actually concerned for him.  I think you've got the wrong read on this situation. 

But Vivienne knows that he has not been intentionally threatening, that he has helped since we met him, and that the inquisitor accepted him into the party- and Cole knows that she doesn't actually believe he caused the White Spire rebellion like she rants. She wants to trap him so that, with the thinnest justification, she can kill him. And protecting the inquisition by attempting, without provocation, to kill one of its own is not reasonable. I don't see how her intentions can be right here.

[daveliam]

But Vivienne knows that he has not been intentionally threatening, that he has helped since we met him, and that the inquisitor accepted him into the party- and Cole knows that she doesn't actually believe he caused the White Spire rebellion like she rants. She wants to trap him so that, with the thinnest justification, she can kill him. And protecting the inquisition by attempting, without provocation, to kill one of its own is not reasonable. I don't see how her intentions can be right here.

Because demons can't be trusted. It would absolutely not be out of the realm of possibility for a demon to hide it's intentions to ingratiate itself into a position where it can possess someone. Just because the demons hasn't acted against you yet doesn't mean it should be trusted. So from her perspective it's about exposing it for what it is and then dealing with it. Once she knows that he's not dangerous, her outlook on him changes. Cole tells you both times what she's thinking. It's pretty clear.

[Raiil]

 

 

I don't see how her intentions can be right here.

 

 

Demons are seductive. That doesn't necessarily mean in an obvious, conniving way. A figure like Cole- who looks like a little boy lost, who speaks in singsong rhymes and asserts he wants to help people- can just as easily be a terrible demon, just one who comes at you from a different angle.

 

I don't think Vivenne is right, don't get me wrong, but it's not like the idea comes out from left field. Vivienne is pretty conservative as far as people go.

[Xilizhra]

Well, like iakus said, it's because she thinks he is a demon.  We've never established what Cole really is.  I'm 60 hours into my third playthrough and I don't what he is.  My best description would be "some kind of spirit, I think".  Vivienne thinks he is a demon and is trying to get the demon to reveal itself so that it can be destroyed.  I think your bias against the character is causing you to attribute a motivation that's not actually there.  You seem to think that she knows he's not a demon and is trying to trick him into a misstep in which case she will pretend he's a demon and then kill him.  We've got, literally, no evidence of that.  In fact, in a follow up banter, once she knows that he's not a threat anymore, Cole exposes that she's actually concerned for him.  I think you've got the wrong read on this situation. 

It's not a matter of pretending. I'm saying that her paranoia is unforgivably breaking my chain of command with the intent to do harm to another companion if he somehow acted incorrectly. Trying to set up her own templars around the allied mages was already a breach of this chain (that's Cullen's job), but this is worse.

[daveliam]

It's not a matter of pretending. I'm saying that her paranoia is unforgivably breaking my chain of command with the intent to do harm to another companion if he somehow acted incorrectly. Trying to set up her own templars around the allied mages was already a breach of this chain (that's Cullen's job), but this is worse.

 

So when Zevran turns on the Warden, is it a breach in the chain command to kill him?  Would you never recruit Morrigan again if she killed Zevran before he could strike on the Warden?  Because that's what Vivienne is trying to do.  She's convinced that he's a threat and tries to trick him into revealing him his true intentions so that she can protect the rest of the Inquisition.  When he doesn't fall for her trick, she never acts on it. 

 

Honestly, I think you are reading too much into this. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I agree with those saying that once the Inquisitor tells them to leave him be at Skyhold, they should trust the Inquisitor's judgement. I mean they just put the Inquisitor in charge. 

 

She can be wary all she wants, but actively trying to provoke is a no no. 

[lil yonce]

Because demons can't be trusted. It would absolutely not be out of the realm of possibility for a demon to hide it's intentions to ingratiate itself into a position where it can possess someone. Just because the demons hasn't acted against you yet doesn't mean it should be trusted. So from her perspective it's about exposing it for what it is and then dealing with it. Once she knows that he's not dangerous, her outlook on him changes. Cole tells you both times what she's thinking. It's pretty clear.

But if we forget about what Vivienne thinks and focus on what we know, I don't see how what she tried to do can be defended.This is guilty until proven innocent. There is no real case to believe he's only a demon. His recent actions especially and Solas' experiences with spirits speak to the contrary.

[daveliam]

But if we forget about what Vivienne thinks and focus on what we know, I don't see how what she tried to do can be defended.This is guilty until proven innocent. There is no real case to believe he's only a demon. His recent actions especially and Solas' experiences with spirits speak to the contrary.

 

Huh?  Why?  Cole specifically speaks to what she's thinking.  He says it out loud.  Why would we ignore that?  He flat out says that she's trying to get him to reveal his true form.  There's no reason to ignore it. 

 

I agree with those saying that once the Inquisitor tells them to leave him be at Skyhold, they should trust the Inquisitor's judgement. I mean they just put the Inquisitor in charge. 

 

She can be wary all she wants, but actively trying to provoke is a no no. 

 

Absolutely not.  Leaders make mistakes.  If you think it's wrong for Vivienne to question the Inquisitor's judgment here, the it's also wrong for Cullen to question Meredith's judgment.  If your leader is making a mistake, there is nothing wrong with taking matters into your own hand to ensure people's safety.

[TheJediSaint]

But if we forget about what Vivienne thinks and focus on what we know, I don't see how what she tried to do can be defended.This is guilty until proven innocent. There is no real case to believe he's only a demon. His recent actions especially and Solas' experiences with spirits speak to the contrary.

Cole murdered mages to make himself more... real.  I'd say Vivienne's aversion to him is well founded.

[Xilizhra]

So when Zevran turns on the Warden, is it a breach in the chain command to kill him?

What do you mean "when?" He never has for me.

 

 

Would you never recruit Morrigan again if she killed Zevran before he could strike on the Warden?

Morrigan's mandatory.

 

 

She's convinced that he's a threat and tries to trick him into revealing him his true intentions so that she can protect the rest of the Inquisition.  When he doesn't fall for her trick, she never acts on it. 

 

Honestly, I think you are reading too much into this. 

"To protect the rest of the Inquisition" is your own interpretation. It's just as possible that she only wants to protect herself, especially if she sees the Inquisitor as one who could align with a demon (an opinion she also has of Solas, at least).

[KaiserShep]

It's not a matter of pretending. I'm saying that her paranoia is unforgivably breaking my chain of command with the intent to do harm to another companion if he somehow acted incorrectly. Trying to set up her own templars around the allied mages was already a breach of this chain (that's Cullen's job), but this is worse.

Regarding the Templars in Haven, it seemed to me that she was suggesting rather than stating that she was just going ahead and having it done. I actually agreed with it, because screw it. Never know if there's a viper in your midst, especially since Venatori mages infiltrated their lot before.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Absolutely not.  Leaders make mistakes.  If you think it's wrong for Vivienne to question the Inquisitor's judgment here, the it's also wrong for Cullen to question Meredith's judgment.  If your leader is making a mistake, there is nothing wrong with taking matters into your own hand to ensure people's safety.

Except the Templars were trusting Meredith blindly. Meanwhile with Cole there is a discussion about it and a decision is made after hearing all sides. She should respect that, especially since she was all about that kind of thing and does in previous instances with other issues. 

Again, she can keep an eye on Cole all she wants in the event Cole is a demon. But going around provoking him is not right. As a Circle mage, she should know that.