Aller au contenu

Photo

Vivienne isn't THAT bad.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
824 réponses à ce sujet

#776
daveliam

daveliam
  • Members
  • 8 436 messages

What do you mean "when?" He never has for me.

 

 

Morrigan's mandatory.

 

 

"To protect the rest of the Inquisition" is your own interpretation. It's just as possible that she only wants to protect herself, especially if she sees the Inquisitor as one who could align with a demon (an opinion she also has of Solas, at least).

 

Zevran will turn on you in the backstreets of Denerim if you don't have his approval high enough.  When Talisen confronts you, he will join Talisen and attack.  If Leliana (since she's not mandatory) puts him down before he can strike on the Warden, would that be enough for you to never recruit her again?  Or do you reserve that Vivienne just because you don't like her?  If it's the latter, that's fine, but call it what it is.  Say you don't like her and you don't want to recruit her.  Don't try to couch it in moral terms. 


  • Sarielle aime ceci

#777
daveliam

daveliam
  • Members
  • 8 436 messages

Except the Templars were trusting Meredith blindly. Meanwhile with Cole there is a discussion about it and a decision is made after hearing all sides. She should respect that, especially since she was all about that kind of thing and does in previous instances with other issues. 

Again, she can keep an eye on Cole all she wants in the event Cole is a demon. But going around provoking him is not right. As a Circle mage, she should know that. 

 

I disagree.  She believes Cole is a demon in this moment and is taking precaution.  By provoking him, one of two things will happen:  he'll attack, in which case she can remove the threat; or he won't, in which case she'll continue to keep an eye on him.  The latter happened and eventually she came to care for him. 


  • Sarielle aime ceci

#778
Andres Hendrix

Andres Hendrix
  • Members
  • 1 424 messages

I love her voice. <3


  • Sarielle, daveliam et dongsaeng aiment ceci

#779
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Zevran will turn on you in the backstreets of Denerim if you don't have his approval high enough.  When Talisen confronts you, he will join Talisen and attack.  If Leliana (since she's not mandatory) puts him down before he can strike on the Warden, would that be enough for you to never recruit her again?  Or do you reserve that Vivienne just because you don't like her?  If it's the latter, that's fine, but call it what it is.  Say you don't like her and you don't want to recruit her.  Don't try to couch it in moral terms. 

That's never something I've needed to worry about, so I don't.

 

And it is in moral terms, or rather, I'm frustrated with the lack of ability to demonstrate my own Inquisitor's morality in this case. And in others; Vivienne desperately needs to have her condescension about Dalish nomadic lifestyles thrown back in her face with "actually, I felt quite free, thanks," or something along those lines.



#780
Hanako Ikezawa

Hanako Ikezawa
  • Members
  • 29 692 messages

I disagree.  She believes Cole is a demon in this moment and is taking precaution.  By provoking him, one of two things will happen:  he'll attack, in which case she can remove the threat; or he won't, in which case she'll continue to keep an eye on him.  The latter happened and eventually she came to care for him. 

Taking precaution =/= provoking to see if dangerous. 

 

People who run safari tours take precautions, like bringing a gun in case an animal attacks. They don't go out there and poke said animal with a stick to see if it will attack. 


  • Xilizhra aime ceci

#781
lil yonce

lil yonce
  • Members
  • 2 319 messages

Cole murdered mages to make himself more... real.  I'd say Vivienne's aversion to him is well founded.

There is no real case he is only a demon. There is a complexity to spirits she will not acknowledge.



#782
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 294 messages

There is no real case he is only a demon. There is a complexity to spirits she will not acknowledge.

 

While true, we should keep in mind that spirits that take an active interest in the real world are far more often than not, demons.

 

In addition, Cole's actions as The GHost of the WHite Spire are not those an outsider is likely to view as that of a benevolent spirit.  Even if the truth of the matter is more complicated than that.


  • Sarielle et loyallyroyal aiment ceci

#783
teh DRUMPf!!

teh DRUMPf!!
  • Members
  • 9 142 messages

 NPC-Mouse.png

 

 

Why would you try to incite this guy? All he did since meeting you was help!


  • Sarielle, Akkos, daveliam et 4 autres aiment ceci

#784
Giantdeathrobot

Giantdeathrobot
  • Members
  • 2 942 messages

 NPC-Mouse.png

 

 

Why would you try to incite this guy? All he did since meeting you was help!

 

That's a good point. We know that Cole is a good spirit-person-thingy thanks to Asunder, Vivienne doesn't. And if the Circle teaches you one thing, it's that demons are clever and ''true tests never end''. Vivienne took that lesson to heart, perhaps too much, but is there such a thing as too much caution when possession and murder-happy demons are involved? Especially when the Breach is tearing up the sky.

 

Whenever this overly cautious attitude is the best thing to do, is another matter. Solas, for example, would disagree, but considering what he is, it's kinda hard to ultimately trust his word on the matter.

 

With that being said, I do think Vivienne is being overly rude to Cole as well as Blackwall. The latter especially earns her scorn for very little apparent reason, which is weird since people she should hate more (such as Sera and Solas) earn some back-and-forth tongue lashings but nothing as condesending and vicious as what she gives Blackwall.


  • Sarielle, daveliam, Ryzaki et 2 autres aiment ceci

#785
Raiil

Raiil
  • Members
  • 4 011 messages

 

 

Morrigan's mandatory.

 

You can make her leave. For what ever reason, Wynne is the only companion that you can choose to pick up and then not get rid of.



#786
teh DRUMPf!!

teh DRUMPf!!
  • Members
  • 9 142 messages

 There is Solas/Viv banter to that effect. He rails on the Circle's teachings for making her fear spirits.

 

To some extent, I agree. I do not see spirits/demons as monsters, really, just a certain kind of animal that you need to understand the nature of. The Chantry fails in that regard. Their teachings on spirits are insufficient at best, stereotyping at worst. At the same token, I have found that the most fearless individuals are often the most stupid -- they are brave mainly because they fail to recognize or understand the dangers they charge into (lol King Cailan). Smarter and wiser individuals realize that getting themselves hurt really is not much fun and are rarely ever so gung-ho. Solas has a point, but has also proven to be pretty reckless (hence why I say: SolASS doesn't know what he's doin'). Vivienne, for all her faults, is at least pretty dependable.

 

Imagine if the Inquisitor made a mistake and Cole truly was a demon, ala Mouse. If she did successfully get him to reveal his true form, it would have been a big favor to the Inquisitor and all involved. As is, she is simply the victim of video-game logic -- Cole is a companion, we know that from pre-release material, so we feel no doubts about him.


  • Sarielle et daveliam aiment ceci

#787
Raiil

Raiil
  • Members
  • 4 011 messages

 There is Solas/Viv banter to that effect. He rails on the Circle's teachings for making her fear spirits.

 

To some extent, I agree. I do not see spirits/demons as monsters, really, just a certain kind of animal that you need to understand the nature of. The Chantry fails in that regard. Their teachings on spirits are insufficient at best, stereotyping at worst. At the same token, I have found that the most fearless individuals are often the most stupid -- they are brave mainly because they fail to recognize or understand the dangers they charge into (lol King Cailan). Smarter and wiser individuals realize that getting themselves hurt really is not much fun and are rarely ever so gung-ho. Solas has a point, but has also proven to be pretty reckless (hence why I say: SolASS doesn't know what he's doin'). Vivienne, for all her faults, is at least pretty dependable.

 

Imagine if the Inquisitor made a mistake and Cole truly was a demon, ala Mouse. If she did successfully get him to reveal his true form, it would have been a big favor to the Inquisitor and all involved. As is, she is simply the victim of video-game logic -- Cole is a companion, we know that from pre-release material, so we feel no doubts about him.

 

 

There used to be an interesting theory about Cailan flying around that he wasn't as dumb as he appeared, for what it's worth.

 

But yes, I tend to agree. Vivienne is extremely cautious and it's sort of intimated that she had a bad experience with her harrowing- that would make her super cautious around anything *purporting* to be benign. Remember that we can't exactly test Cole to make sure he is what he is, we really only have Solas's assurances, and Mister High and Mighty Hobo doesn't always explain where he's coming from.


  • daveliam aime ceci

#788
dongsaeng

dongsaeng
  • Members
  • 311 messages

I love her voice. <3

Dahling! You have great tastes. <3

 

Agreed. Definitely love her voice actor!


  • Andres Hendrix et loyallyroyal aiment ceci

#789
Sarielle

Sarielle
  • Members
  • 2 018 messages

Taking precaution =/= provoking to see if dangerous. 

 

People who run safari tours take precautions, like bringing a gun in case an animal attacks. They don't go out there and poke said animal with a stick to see if it will attack. 

 

Except nobody on a safari is going to view a lion as a friend -- whereas the Inquisitor may do that with Cole. You don't have to get a lion to reveal itself for what it is, nobody's going to mistake it for anything else.

 

We know Cole is a "good guy" from metagaming, if you will -- though he'll still kill hurting people if you let him. He may mean well, but even Solas can't explain why he is the way he is, nor does he dispute with Vivienne the "demon" title much.

 

Vivienne: It is a demon.

Solas: If you like. 

 

... then he goes on to explain how it's actually "complicated" and that Cole is "unique" ... which proves not even Solas can really explain what he is or what he's capable of becoming.

 

 

That's never something I've needed to worry about, so I don't.

 

And it is in moral terms, or rather, I'm frustrated with the lack of ability to demonstrate my own Inquisitor's morality in this case. And in others; Vivienne desperately needs to have her condescension about Dalish nomadic lifestyles thrown back in her face with "actually, I felt quite free, thanks," or something along those lines.

 

 

Just because it didn't happen in your game doesn't change his character. He's capable of it still :)

 

And the Inquisitor doesn't comment on anybody's chatter. I mean, maybe my elfy elf wants to tell Sera to STFU when Solas is trying to speak elven to her. In the end, all Vivienne does is talk


  • daveliam et Ryzaki aiment ceci

#790
Urzon

Urzon
  • Members
  • 979 messages

As I keep saying. Without Duke Bastien her position as court enchanter means nothing. Without his wealth and influence behind her words the title: Court Enchanter, simply means a mage who is a glorified jester. One who entertains the court. Should she manage to retain the position it would not translate into actual power. Especially seeing as Celene evidently does not find her interesting at all.

So your entire counter argument is, "Vivienne's influence and power is tied 100% to Bastien."? That's a bit of a pity. It would be like saying Leliana's prowess and influence in the Game was tied strictly to Divine Justinia, and once Justinia died Leliana somehow instantly became nothing in Orlais. Yes, they were put into high position by their patrons, but what they made out and got out of that position was entirely on them.

The Court Enchanter was basically a court jester when Vivienne got the job, but she, not Bastien, was able to turn it more than that. She was able to turn it into an advisory position to the Empress and the rest of the Court, and she was able to start gathering political power for herself even though that was strictly prohibited. She started making "friends" with the nobles at court, gathering gossip and secrets to use against her enemies and anyone else that might cross her in the future, and trading favors to get what she wants out of people.

On top of all of that, she was almost able to become the First Enchanter of Montsimmard, but since rebellion put a stop to that, she became the de-facto leader of the Loyalist mages instead. Those appointments had nothing to do with Bastien's influence at all, since the First Enchanter position is controlled by either the outgoing FE or the KC with the approval of the mages, and her becoming the de-facto leader is because the mages are putting their trust in her. That put Vivienne in a big position of power since she has a good amount of mages under her command as well as all the resources of the remaining Loyalist Circles as well.
 

Morrigan was able to gain power because she could indulge Celene's interest in the occult. Vivienne because as long as she was Bastien's official mistress her words had weight behind them. Vivienne without Bastien is simply a rude conservative mage. Those the court can find anywhere.

How about a rude conservative mage that possibly has scandalous information on you that could ruin your reputation? Or how about said information about a political rival and was willing to negotiate to arrange an "incident" that would benefit you greatly? How about a mage that has a large amount of magical resources at her disposal by being the leader of the remaining Circles that could help you with a certain problem of yours?

The Court can't find those anywhere, and Bastien's death isn't going to make Vivienne less of a threat or possible ally to people. She still has information on the nobles at court, knowledge on how to possibly use it, and the resources to back it up.
 

Without Bastien she holds no influence or power at all. Anyone who respected her did so because they feared the Duke, and anyone who fears her would happily tear into her now that her power is mostly gone. 

 
What did they have to fear out of the Duke in the end? He was bedridden and comatose at the end of his life, and people still feared and respected her. Were they afraid he was going to magically pop up out of bed long enough to draft a contract with the House of Repose? Summon an army of bards? People who feared her would want to tear into her anyway, and if she put herself in a bad enough position for that to happen, there would have been nothing she or Bastien would have been able to do, even if he was alive and healthy, until it was too late and the damage was already done.

Though, I'm sure they can certainly try to tear her down after he's dead, but I'm not sure it would do much good. Bastien gave her additional resources, but Vivienne was the one that actually had the knowledge on everyone. Just because Bastien's dead wouldn't make any blackmail able material any less true, and good luck sending assassins after her. She's a powerful Knight Enchanter that can freeze a person with a wave of her hand, and she can shatter them just as easily.  
 

She was allowed to arrange his funeral, yes. But that does not mean she gains any power from doing so. All of Bastien's lands will pass to his heirs, which do not include her (since she is a mage), and as previously mentioned, friendship means nothing to the nobles of Orlais if you do not have power and wealth behind you. She can only gain power with the aid of the Inquisition. 
 

 
Gains no power in doing so? She may not be gaining any lands or title from his death, but she's basically the executor of his estate. That means she controls everything until they are distributed to the inheritors. That's a huge position of power.

Friendship might not mean much, but a strong possibly ally will.

She can only gain power with the aid of the Inquisition? So I'm guessing her almost becoming the First Enchanter of Montsimmard, her than later becoming the leader of the Loyalist mages, and her personally reshaping what the role of the Court Enchant was all retroactively because of the Inquisitor then?
 

Neither is likely to happen without the person in question having the support of a massively powerful organization such as the Inquisition backing them.

Or you can just do something heroic that saved the world to gain the ruler's approval like my mage warden, and he was able to become the Teyran of Gwaren. Luckily for Vivienne, she was one of the few people that took part in the final battle against an ancient Darkspawn magister that caused the Blight and processed to threaten the entire world again by ripping a hole in the sky that rained demons.
 

The only reason Viv can become Divine in Inquisition is because the Chantry is in shambles. Most senior Grand Clerics are dead, the Templars are decimated, Seekers destroyed. They desperately need to support of the Inquisition to regain their former power and will do anything they think will get them into the good graces of the Inquisitor. 
 
Becoming a landed noble as a mage though? Who gains from that? Giving an elf (if Briala is made a noble) land is bad enough. But a mage? Doubtful.

Not so much of "trying to get into the Inquisitor's good graces" if the reveal of her being Divine is a blindside and not something the Inquisitor wanted. That means her getting the role was all behind the scenes manipulations on her part. I know me, and I'm sure a lot of other people, were surprised when she popped up as Divine at the end of the game.

As for you gains from it, it's what a ruler might think a mage might deserve for whatever action they have done for them.
  • daveliam et loyallyroyal aiment ceci

#791
DanteYoda

DanteYoda
  • Members
  • 883 messages

Of course not! You're a robot! You can't romance her.

I never actually tried so i wasn't sure either way..

 

I just couldn't Romance Vivienne i'd want to end it 5 minutes after it started..

 

And she went behind my back to try to kill one of my comrades. That is not acceptable.

In all fairness nothing like this happened in my play-through? she disliked Cole, but i never saw anything like that..

 

That said if she had killed Cole i'd have probably not noticed..



#792
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 294 messages

 
On top of all of that, she was almost able to become the First Enchanter of Montsimmard, but since rebellion put a stop to that, she became the de-facto leader of the Loyalist mages instead. Those appointments had nothing to do with Bastien's influence at all, since the First Enchanter position is controlled by either the outgoing FE or the KC with the approval of the mages, and her becoming the de-facto leader is because the mages are putting their trust in her. That put Vivienne in a big position of power since she has a good amount of mages under her command as well as all the resources of the remaining Loyalist Circles as well.
 

One small correction, she did become FIrst Enchanter of Montsimmard, according to her codex entry:

 

"Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets this truth gets burned."

 

 

An assiduous and talented scholar, Vivienne rose rapidly through the ranks of Montsimmard's Circle. When made a full-fledged enchanter, she elected to join no fraternity, a decision that shocked colleagues but may have been a calculated maneuver. When she successfully applied to be appointed Enchanter to the Imperial Court, nearly every fraternity clamored for her favor in hopes of having a representative at the empress's ear. She was voted First Enchanter of Montsimmard at an age young enough to cause scandal. The Circle widely regards her as the most shrewd and disciplined mage in Orlais.



#793
theflyingzamboni

theflyingzamboni
  • Members
  • 734 messages

She really is that bad. Her redeeming quality is that she does care about people's safety in her own way. Unfortunately, it's more than balanced by the bad. She is insufferably condescending in an often malicious way, for one. Most importantly though, her major opinions are morally repugnant. A character can be condescending and I might still like them, but it's hard to like someone who espouses the views she does. She uses the exact same arguments and fear mongering that led to the Japanese internment camps in the US, and all kinds of other historical human rights violations.

 

And her whole "Circles are protecting the mages" argument is bullshit too, and it's unfortunate that you can't reject them more forcefully (verbally) in game. I mean, who thinks that argument would be seen as acceptable in the real world? "We're keeping them separate for their own good." Where have I heard that before? Wouldn't a better solution be, oh, I don't know, addressing the underlying fears of the masses to humanize the mages in their minds? Maybe work on ways to protect mages from possession beyond killing them or ripping out their soul? It's a rationalization for prejudiced behavior. It's the same reason I can't play a character who supports the Templar establishment. They're literally internment camp guards, and no amount of "Some of them are nice" changes that.

That's not to say she isn't a well written character. She has a lot of depth and complexity. But she is a pretty terrible person.


  • Barquiel, ThePhoenixKing et thesuperdarkone2 aiment ceci

#794
thesuperdarkone2

thesuperdarkone2
  • Members
  • 2 988 messages

She really is that bad. Her redeeming quality is that she does care about people's safety in her own way. Unfortunately, it's more than balanced by the bad. She is insufferably condescending in an often malicious way, for one. Most importantly though, her major opinions are morally repugnant. A character can be condescending and I might still like them, but it's hard to like someone who espouses the views she does. She uses the exact same arguments and fear mongering that led to the Japanese internment camps in the US, and all kinds of other historical human rights violations.

 

And her whole "Circles are protecting the mages" argument is bullshit too, and it's unfortunate that you can't reject them more forcefully (verbally) in game. I mean, who thinks that argument would be seen as acceptable in the real world? "We're keeping them separate for their own good." Where have I heard that before? Wouldn't a better solution be, oh, I don't know, addressing the underlying fears of the masses to humanize the mages in their minds? Maybe work on ways to protect mages from possession beyond killing them or ripping out their soul? It's a rationalization for prejudiced behavior. It's the same reason I can't play a character who supports the Templar establishment. They're literally internment camp guards, and no amount of "Some of them are nice" changes that.

That's not to say she isn't a well written character. She has a lot of depth and complexity. But she is a pretty terrible person.

Heck, if you get low disapproval with her, you can actually call her out on preferring to lock up mages rather than actually try and convince people that mages aren't monsters. Vivienne



#795
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 294 messages

She really is that bad. Her redeeming quality is that she does care about people's safety in her own way. Unfortunately, it's more than balanced by the bad. She is insufferably condescending in an often malicious way, for one. Most importantly though, her major opinions are morally repugnant. A character can be condescending and I might still like them, but it's hard to like someone who espouses the views she does. She uses the exact same arguments and fear mongering that led to the Japanese internment camps in the US, and all kinds of other historical human rights violations.

 

And her whole "Circles are protecting the mages" argument is bullshit too, and it's unfortunate that you can't reject them more forcefully (verbally) in game. I mean, who thinks that argument would be seen as acceptable in the real world? "We're keeping them separate for their own good." Where have I heard that before? Wouldn't a better solution be, oh, I don't know, addressing the underlying fears of the masses to humanize the mages in their minds? Maybe work on ways to protect mages from possession beyond killing them or ripping out their soul? It's a rationalization for prejudiced behavior. It's the same reason I can't play a character who supports the Templar establishment. They're literally internment camp guards, and no amount of "Some of them are nice" changes that.

That's not to say she isn't a well written character. She has a lot of depth and complexity. But she is a pretty terrible person.

 

I think the ""underlying fears of the masses" have to do with mages sometimes going all demony and wiping out entire villages.  (Well, that and the Tevinter Imperium really did a number on the mage reputation).  But in the end, magic in Thedas is a great example of Blessed With Suck.  The same connection to the Fade that gives mages their powers is also a constant threat for demonic possession.  Vivienne knows this, as intimately as any mage can.

 

And while yes, finding ways to prevent said possession would be ideal, it seems the Seekers are the only ones who have managed to find a way.  And it's got its own drawbacks.

 

as for Templars, thier mandate is not just to protect people from the scary mages, but to protect mages from fearful and murderous mobs.  The problem is many of them have forgotten that part of their duty.  That their job is to protect everyone.  They are police, not jailers.  Vivienne would have them return to that role.

 

Vivienne is condescending.  And arrogant.  And I don't know that her path is the right one.  But she has a healthy respect for the dangers magic can cause:

 

Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous.  Anyone who forgets this truth gets burned.



#796
thesuperdarkone2

thesuperdarkone2
  • Members
  • 2 988 messages

I think the ""underlying fears of the masses" have to do with mages sometimes going all demony and wiping out entire villages.  (Well, that and the Tevinter Imperium really did a number on the mage reputation).  But in the end, magic in Thedas is a great example of Blessed With Suck.  The same connection to the Fade that gives mages their powers is also a constant threat for demonic possession.  Vivienne knows this, as intimately as any mage can.

 

And while yes, finding ways to prevent said possession would be ideal, it seems the Seekers are the only ones who have managed to find a way.  And it's got its own drawbacks.

 

as for Templars, thier mandate is not just to protect people from the scary mages, but to protect mages from fearful and murderous mobs.  The problem is many of them have forgotten that part of their duty.  That their job is to protect everyone.  They are police, not jailers.  Vivienne would have them return to that role.

 

Vivienne is condescending.  And arrogant.  And I don't know that her path is the right one.  But she has a healthy respect for the dangers magic can cause:

 

Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous.  Anyone who forgets this truth gets burned.

Actually no, Cass is the one that intends to return the Templars to what they should be. Vivienne would keep the Templars as they are, only leashed as her personal army. Considering the Silver Shield ending, I doubt the templars are happy about this.



#797
Aren

Aren
  • Members
  • 3 497 messages

Vivienne isn't that bad, yes i agree.



#798
theflyingzamboni

theflyingzamboni
  • Members
  • 734 messages

I think the ""underlying fears of the masses" have to do with mages sometimes going all demony and wiping out entire villages.  (Well, that and the Tevinter Imperium really did a number on the mage reputation).  But in the end, magic in Thedas is a great example of Blessed With Suck.  The same connection to the Fade that gives mages their powers is also a constant threat for demonic possession.  Vivienne knows this, as intimately as any mage can.

 

And while yes, finding ways to prevent said possession would be ideal, it seems the Seekers are the only ones who have managed to find a way.  And it's got its own drawbacks.

 

as for Templars, thier mandate is not just to protect people from the scary mages, but to protect mages from fearful and murderous mobs.  The problem is many of them have forgotten that part of their duty.  That their job is to protect everyone.  They are police, not jailers.  Vivienne would have them return to that role.

 

Vivienne is condescending.  And arrogant.  And I don't know that her path is the right one.  But she has a healthy respect for the dangers magic can cause:

 

Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous.  Anyone who forgets this truth gets burned.

Again, this is the same logic that people use all the time to exclude, lock up, discriminate against, and otherwise mistreat their fellow humans. To go back to the example I mentioned, it's like saying: "Japanese Americans are dangerous. Some of them might work with the Japanese during the war, and kill a lot of Americans. Therefore, it is justified to put them all in guarded camps." Morally indefensible. No matter how many pretty analogies and exhortations of danger are used, it is a gross violation of human rights that should never be supported. Most anything and anyone has the potential to be dangerous. It's not an excuse to deprive people of freedom for crimes they have not committed.


  • thesuperdarkone2 aime ceci

#799
DarthLaxian

DarthLaxian
  • Members
  • 2 031 messages

Considering she wishes to get power so that as many people are safe as possible while at the same time doing as much for free mages as you can, it's not that bad.

 

Like, her divine epilogue slide is the least full of conflict, yet mentioned mages getting more freedoms than before.

 

It follows the same logic as a benevolent dictator theoretically being a good thing. Wanting power doesnt make you bad if you want to do good things with it.

 

No no no - she does nothing for free mages (!), she thinks them traitors who should have never left their circles and should have tried to get some freedom by working the system (like she does)...she might not want them all killed - but she doesn't like them and their leader Fiona!

 

greetings LAX



#800
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 294 messages

Again, this is the same logic that people use all the time to exclude, lock up, discriminate against, and otherwise mistreat their fellow humans. To go back to the example I mentioned, it's like saying: "Japanese Americans are dangerous. Some of them might work with the Japanese during the war, and kill a lot of Americans. Therefore, it is justified to put them all in guarded camps." Morally indefensible. No matter how many pretty analogies and exhortations of danger are used, it is a gross violation of human rights that should never be supported. Most anything and anyone has the potential to be dangerous. It's not an excuse to deprive people of freedom for crimes they have not committed.

 

Except Vivienne is a mage.  She is not for the mistreatment of mages.  She wants the Circle to be a haven, not a prison.  A place where mages can practice thir magic in safety.  She wants Templars to be guardians of mages, against threats from without and within.  Tempalrs and mages living in a symbiotic relationship, working together to achieve something greater.

 

I daresay she wants mages to have the Circle experience she had.  Lives of comfort and privilige, where mages who have proven able to control their power responsibly can come and go as they like.  Where Templars know their duty and don't abuse thier power. 

 

We need an institution to protect and nurture magic. 

 

She sees Templars as necessary because not every mage is responsible.  Some do abuse thier power.  Some think Tevinter has the right idea in mage superiority.  Some are too weak to resist demons.  And of course, there are plenty of muggles who hate and fear mages, with or without cause. 

 

Vivienne is, in her own way, as idealistic as Lelianna.  While Leliana wants to tear down the whole insitution and let mages govern themselves, Vivienne is convinced the system can still work.  That the abuses were perpetrated by individuals and lack of oversight, and don't speak to the system in general.  I'm not so sure she's right about this. 


  • Sarielle, Tyrannosaurus Rex, daveliam et 1 autre aiment ceci