824 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

I love Vivienne even though most of my Inquisitors disagrees with her.  She's well written and well acted.  She really does care about others sometimes.  She'll tell you that things aren't your fault and you can't do everything, but at the same time she'll tell you how you need to carry yourself and look to demand respect.  

 

She'll tell Cassandra not to blame herself for what happened, and she's the only companion I've seen so far that's approved of saving all the townspeople in Haven.

 

Her and Sera are such extreme characters that either you love them or you hate them.  

[Heidirs]

Vivienne imo comes as a strong and ambitious character, what she wants she gets. Even if it means at the expense of others.

 

This is why I feel uneasy recruiting her because by doing so, I'm elevating her status. And sometimes I feel like that's all she really wants, like she's not really interested in helping people. And if all she really cares about is herself, then I'd rather not give her the satisfaction of being known as one of the Inquisition's heroes. 

[KaiserShep]

She'll tell Cassandra not to blame herself for what happened, and she's the only companion I've seen so far that's approved of saving all the townspeople in Haven.

 

Only if she likes you enough lol. Otherwise, she'll just criticize how crappy Haven was.

[Aaleel]

Only if she likes you enough lol. Otherwise, she'll just criticize how crappy Haven was.

 

No she approved of saving the people in the game where I sided with the mages as full allies.  Just when we got to Skyhaven she says choosing Haven as a base of operation was a bad decision because it was not defensible.  Which is basically the same thing Cullen says, and that Skyhold is better.

 

I like having people around who tell it like it is.  Having all yes men or people who sugarcoat is not always the best way to go.

 

We've been friends in all the games.  My best friend she moved his furniture around and I thought he was joking.

[Cantina]

I love Vivienne even though most of my Inquisitors disagrees with her.  She's well written and well acted.  She really does care about others sometimes.  She'll tell you that things aren't your fault and you can't do everything, but at the same time she'll tell you how you need to carry yourself and look to demand respect.  

 

She'll tell Cassandra not to blame herself for what happened, and she's the only companion I've seen so far that's approved of saving all the townspeople in Haven.

 

Her and Sera are such extreme characters that either you love them or you hate them.  

 

Vivienne is only nice to Cassandra because Vivienne knows, Cassandra faith can be used against her. Butter-up to a Seeker and there is an ally you can use to whatever advantage you need. 

 

Varric gains approval when you save all the townsfolk. Besides Vivienne is glads you saved people because that is more people she can use. Not to mention one of the people you do save is a Templar. 

 

Vivienne only cares for others when it is required for whatever her purpose is.

 

She wants my Inquisitor to look respectful because Vivienne does not want to be seen standing next to a "hermit."  Beyond that whatever compliments she does give my Inquisitor they are empty. They are not compliments they are just her being two-faced.

 

I agree, Vivienne is a well written character, so much so, that she is by far thee most hated character I have ever come across in any game I have played.

 

I have no issue with Sera, she is like a teenager, Vivienne is just someone I want to kick out a window-like that harlequin in "Wicked eyes and Wicked hearts."

 

[Sarielle]

Vivienne is only pro-circle because she was allowed to leave it whenever she wanted.

 

Remove her perks and she would hate it just as much as every other mage... she would probably hate it even more because of her fear.

 

Well, sure, she had perks. She obviously had a positive experience in the Circle; so did Minaeve, our researcher. Obviously if a mage were treated really poorly they'll have a different perspective.

 

Vivi does mention, very specifically, that no one's experience was the same (so she knows not everyone had it the same as she did); and that having opinions on Templars is like having opinions on mages or men. (IE, they're all different, some good, some bad. Cole says basically the same thing.). She also mentions most Circles did actually offer some leeway in living arrangements, though how true that is we have no way of knowing.

 

I do think she really does see the Circles as a way to protect mages. She's ambitious but not wholly self-centered imo.

 

EDIT: To me the Circle debate is not a question of strictly good and bad. It's a question of "greater good" versus "personal freedom," and what characters value more.

[LobselVith8]

Vivi can be a ******, but she's so good at it. 

 

I do think her pro-Circle stance is what gets her most of the hate -- though of course I realize some simply won't like her personality. But the fact that she's pro-Circle and makes excellent points in favor of it makes a lot of folks cranky imo.

 

People are annoyed because she's supposed to be a master of the Game, and instead acts like a petulant child when she doesn't get her way. Rather than acting like an adult as Cullen does (who is able to keep his composure if the Inquisitor expresses views that are ideologically different than his own), she pulls asinine stunts and makes comments you can't really argue against because the writer prohibits your protagonist from doing so.

 

In fact, there are a number of pro-mage players who expressed liking Cullen in this game (and he remains pro-templar throughout the narrative), so I'm not sure how accurate it is to say that people only dislike Vivienne because of her views; I feel that, based on what most people have expressed since Inquisition was released, it has to do with her personality.

 

EDIT: That and she bluntly tells you when she thinks you're being dumb about something.

 

Like when she acts as though she knows more about the Dalish than the elven Inquisitor? 

 

I've thoroughly enjoyed both my playthrough where she was buds with my Quizzy and the one where she hated Quizzy's guts. They're both brilliant imo.

 

You seem to really like Vivienne. I can't say the same; I felt nothing but contempt for Vivienne.

[scruffylad]

Vivienne is insufferably condescending. This probably accounts for some of the hate.

Having said that, I like her.

 

Her insults amuse me (the player) even if they would be tiresome in real life. (In DAO, I often had Morrigan and Alistair in my party just to hear them go at each other. IRL it would be uncomfortable, but in the game it's hilarious.)

 

And her position about mages might not be the "free the mages!" rallying cry popular around here, but she makes some good points.

 

Normal people do fear mages and frankly they should, since mages hurl fire and lightning and ice and might turn into abominations if they slip up. (And let's not forget Tevinter's little human sacrifice problem. Blood magic brings real power, and a lot of blood brings even more. Too tempting to pass up, in the empire run by mages. If Dorian is to be believed (and why wouldn't we believe him, he's fantastic), then anyone in the Magisterium uses blood magic to get there. To get to the top, sacrifices need to be made--slaves, of course.)

 

Vivienne's approach to the "mage problem" seems to be having mages in circles to reassure the populace and protect the mages from the pitchfork and torch-wielding types, while cozying up to people in power to work on things for that end. I think she is genuinely looking out for mages as a group, but she has a very different approach than the "mages running wild and free" types. If she had her druthers, I suspect the circles would be decent places: a safe zone for mages to learn how to do magic, to learn what not to do and why, with greater freedom given to those mages that have shown they're responsible and sane. It's certainly not the only way, but it's not crazy either.

[Dr. rotinaj]

There was a "slap Morrigan" mod, you know?  Morrigan got plenty of hate.

 

Yeah absolutely. I remember the hate she got and claimed as much in my post. That hatred pretty much disappeared a few months after DAO came out (or it has become less vocal). I just really hope is that this Vivienne hatred goes the same way cuz I think the way some people talk about her vs the way they talk about Morrigan is sometimes very hypocritical.

[KaiserShep]

Like when she acts as though she knows more about the Dalish than the elven Inquisitor? 

 

It's moments like that that make you wish for a mean Warden-esque one-liner, like "Don't pretend to know my people better than I, shem."

[Cantina]

Vivienne is insufferably condescending. This probably accounts for some of the hate.

Having said that, I like her.

 

Her insults amuse me (the player) even if they would be tiresome in real life. (In DAO, I often had Morrigan and Alistair in my party just to hear them go at each other. IRL it would be uncomfortable, but in the game it's hilarious.)

 

And her position about mages might not be the "free the mages!" rallying cry popular around here, but she makes some good points.

 

Normal people do fear mages and frankly they should, since mages hurl fire and lightning and ice and might turn into abominations if they slip up. (And let's not forget Tevinter's little human sacrifice problem. Blood magic brings real power, and a lot of blood brings even more. Too tempting to pass up, in the empire run by mages. If Dorian is to be believed (and why wouldn't we believe him, he's fantastic), then anyone in the Magisterium uses blood magic to get there. To get to the top, sacrifices need to be made--slaves, of course.)

 

Vivienne's approach to the "mage problem" seems to be having mages in circles to reassure the populace and protect the mages from the pitchfork and torch-wielding types, while cozying up to people in power to work on things for that end. I think she is genuinely looking out for mages as a group, but she has a very different approach than the "mages running wild and free" types. If she had her druthers, I suspect the circles would be decent places: a safe zone for mages to learn how to do magic, to learn what not to do and why, with greater freedom given to those mages that have shown they're responsible and sane. It's certainly not the only way, but it's not crazy either.

 

Uh I hate her because she is a b**ch. Not because of her views on mages and magic, My character does romance Cullen and she is a mage.

[Qun00]

Ooohhh, what an "unpopular opinion".

Every Vivienne thread I've ever come across was filled with nothing but those.

Vivi can be a ******, but she's so good at it. 

Double standards, everyone.

Vivienne has a full time dedication to insulting you and everyone else, but Sera apparently is a demon for doing much less.

I do think her pro-Circle stance is what gets her most of the hate -- though of course I realize some simply won't like her personality. But the fact that she's pro-Circle and makes excellent points in favor of it makes a lot of folks cranky imo. EDIT: That and she bluntly tells you when she thinks you're being dumb about something.

I've thoroughly enjoyed both my playthrough where she was buds with my Quizzy and the one where she hated Quizzy's guts. They're both brilliant imo.

Being pro-Circle isn't the problem. Cassandra is pro-Circle and no one has a problem with that.

Vivienne's point makes sense, but any respect that could earn goes down the drain if she becomes Divine. When put into practice, she's the same as the worst of templars.

Instead of keeping Circles optional, she drags mages into them by force.

[Sarielle]

Ooohhh, what an "unpopular opinion".

Every Vivienne thread I've ever come across was filled with nothing but those.


Double standards, everyone.

Vivienne has a full time dedication to insulting you and everyone else, but Sera apparently is a demon for doing much less.

Being pro-Circle isn't the problem. Cassandra is pro-Circle and no one has a problem with that.

Vivienne's point makes sense, but any respect that could earn goes down the drain if she becomes Divine. When put into practice, she's the same as the worst of templars.

Instead of keeping Circles optional, she drags mages into them by force.

 

I'll be honest, I got the Cassandra as Divine the first time I played and I honestly don't remember, but doesn't Cass also keep the Circles intact?

 

And I like Sera. She's fun. Don't assume

 

 

 My character does romance Cullen and she is a mage.

 

As for the "but Cullen is pro-Templar" that's ... not necessarily the same as pro-Circle. He also, with a mage Warden, was once open-minded enough to be in love with -- or at least infatuated with -- a mage. And finally, he's the slightly awkward, emotionally vulnerable, literal knight in shining armor -- with the bonus tragic bits that you can "fix." Of course he's popular. lol

 

Disclaimer: I'm currently doing the wangsty, leave-him-on-lyrium romance. So I don't hate him either. But, c'mon. Sharp-tongued ambitious lady who is not a LI, or broken-yet-fixable knight LI ... hardly a fair comparison.

 

EDIT: Whoops, overlooked this:

 

 

Like when she acts as though she knows more about the Dalish than the elven Inquisitor?  

 

Iron Bull also explains to you how mages work in Dalish clans, lol. And ... Vivienne's not wrong.

 

I do like her as a character. I probably wouldn't have much in common with her at all IRL, as I find worrying about what people might think of X action or X outfit or whatever exhausting and shallow. I think I'd still appreciate her verbal jabs, because I've actually been zinged really good during RL arguments and had that end the argument because I laughed so hard. I appreciate that nonsense. 

 

Vivienne isn't without either flaws or merits. I don't think she's quite deserving of some of the level of vitriol some feel toward her.

[Aimi]

It's moments like that that make you wish for a mean Warden-esque one-liner, like "Don't pretend to know my people better than I, shem."

no no it has to be patronizing and supercilious

like "aw, it's cute that you think that way"

or "are those the stories that they tell you shems in the circles? my my"

admittedly it's a lot easier to be patronizing and supercilious when you're rich and powerful than it is when you represent small bands of survival edge-case nomads but hey the Dalish have practice, they've been doing it for centuries

[Pee Jae]

I like her enough to "party" with her. But, has anyone actually counted how many times she says, "My dear?" 'cause I'm betting it's pretty damned high. Also, try rping as a mage who wants freedom for all mages. You'll get a lot of disapproval.

[BabyPuncher]

I'd like someone who claims Vivienne is well written to address my comment on how BioWare gushed over how powerful she was in pre-release information and all the ways she has to take people down despite that never once coming up in the story.

Is that not important? When a writer has to outright, word-for word tell the audience what qualities a character has because they're non-existent in the story, that's a pretty serious sign that the character has failed.

[LobselVith8]

As for the "but Cullen is pro-Templar" that's ... not necessarily the same as pro-Circle. He also, with a mage Warden, was once open-minded enough to be in love with -- or at least infatuated with -- a mage. And finally, he's the slightly awkward, emotionally vulnerable, literal knight in shining armor -- with the bonus tragic bits that you can "fix." Of course he's popular. lol

 

Disclaimer: I'm currently doing the wangsty, leave-him-on-lyrium romance. So I don't hate him either. But, c'mon. Sharp-tongued ambitious lady who is not a LI, or broken-yet-fixable knight LI ... hardly a fair comparison.

 

I didn't romance Cullen, but I liked his character in Inquisition. He's reasonable, he's trustworthy, and he's able to accept that the protagonist has different views about mages and magic than he does. Unlike Vivienne, Cullen doesn't act like a child simply because he doesn't get his way (for example, when the Inquisitor sides allies with the mages instead of the templars).

 

Despite the fact that I'm pro-mage, he was someone I trusted. There's a stark difference between Cullen and Vivienne, and I simply don't think one can say that people only dislike Vivienne because she is pro-Circle (although I think it's more fair to say that Vivienne is pro-Vivienne, and simply uses the Circle to help promote herself).

 

Iron Bull also explains to you how mages work in Dalish clans, lol. And ... Vivienne's not wrong.

 

No, Iron Bull explained how it worked with the mercenary Dalish's clan, not with all clans. When Minaeve says that her clan exiled her, the elven Inquisitor can tell her that his didn't operate that way, and in the dialogue with Vivienne, the main character can make it clear other clans operated the same way as Clan Lavellan as well - which is evident from Merrill's own codex entry and the example of Merrill's original tribe, Clan Alerion. As it reads, "As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."

 

However, when the Dalish Inquisitor points this out, Vivienne thinks her hearsay trumps his actual first-hand knowledge of the People. She's wrong because she thinks she's right simply because she's heard rumors about the Dalish, even when she's presented with actual facts about the Elvhen from one of their own.

 

I do like her as a character. I probably wouldn't have much in common with her at all IRL, as I find worrying about what people might think of X action or X outfit or whatever exhausting and shallow. I think I'd still appreciate her verbal jabs, because I've actually been zinged really good during RL arguments and had that end the argument because I laughed so hard. I appreciate that nonsense. 

 

Vivienne isn't without either flaws or merits. I don't think she's quite deserving of some of the level of vitriol some feel toward her.

 

I'll be honest, I think she's earned all the disdain and vitriol that is aimed at her. People dislike Vivienne for who she is; it's as simple as that. It doesn't help that her writer thought that throwing tantrums and making snide remarks when the protagonist doesn't agree with her somehow equated her to being a master of the Game, when it actually does the opposite.

[daveliam]

I'd like someone who claims Vivienne is well written to address my comment on how BioWare gushed over how powerful she was in pre-release information and all the ways she has to take people down despite that never once coming up in the story.

Is that not important? When a writer has to outright, word-for word tell the audience what qualities a character has because they're non-existent in the story, that's a pretty serious sign that the character has failed.

 

The only in-game example of it is during her recruitment mission, where she manipulates the situation to trick that Marquise into disparaging you so that she can make a grand entrance and kill two birds with one stone (humiliating the Marquise and proving her potential loyalty to the Inquisition).  It's hinted at through numerous NPC banter that she's formidable, but there aren't any details given.  To be honest though, why would that come up in the game?  Outside of the Winter Palace, there's really no place for Vivienne to use political machinations on any of your enemies.  I will admit that I think Mary really dropped the ball with that particular quest.  If Vivienne can attend with you, she should be able to play a more significant role.  I understand that they wanted to make the companions interchangeable, but it just felt like a huge missed opportunity.  Other than that, where, exactly, was she supposed to show her prowess in The Game during the course of the game?

[TheJediSaint]

It's moments like that that make you wish for a mean Warden-esque one-liner, like "Don't pretend to know my people better than I, shem."

Which is even funnier when the shem actually does know more than the Dalish.

[BabyPuncher]

The only in-game example of it is during her recruitment mission, where she manipulates the situation to trick that Marquise into disparaging you so that she can make a grand entrance and kill two birds with one stone (humiliating the Marquise and proving her potential loyalty to the Inquisition). 

 

Do you have evidence for any of that? Evidence that Vivienne manipulated the Marquise into insulting the Inquisitor?

 

To be honest though, why would that come up in the game?  Outside of the Winter Palace, there's really no place for Vivienne to use political machinations on any of your enemies...Other than that, where, exactly, was she supposed to show her prowess in The Game during the course of the game?

 

That's not my problem. It's the writers' problem. One of your jobs as a writer is to think of scenarios that make use of your characters' qualities and skills. If you can't do that, you shouldn't make claims that characters have those qualities in the first place, should you now?

[daveliam]

Do you have a shred of evidence for any of that? Evidence that Vivienne manipulated the Marquise into insulting the Inquisitor?

 

Banter with Cole.  That Marquise humiliated her with racist comments and this was her revenge and also her way of getting in well with the Inquisition. 

• Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
• Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
• Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
• Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
• Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
• Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.

 

That's not my problem. It's the writers' problem. One of your jobs as a writer is to think of scenarios that make use of your characters' qualities and skills. If you can't do that, you shouldn't make claims that characters have those qualities in the first place, should you now?

 

Sometimes "tell" is just as effective as "show", you know.  It's absolutely ridiculous to think that just because there weren't scenarios to show off a character strength, then suddenly that strength doesn't exist.  We're told about it.  We see and hear hints of it.  And all of that sits exactly where it should for someone who is skilled at The Game. 

[Reznore57]

Do you have a shred of evidence for any of that? Evidence that Vivienne manipulated the Marquise into insulting the Inquisitor?

 

 

 

 

There's a banter with Cole :

 

• Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
• Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
• Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
• Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
• Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
• Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.

 

Edit: Daveliam was faster.

[BabyPuncher]

Sometimes "tell" is just as effective as "show", you know.  It's absolutely ridiculous to think that just because there weren't scenarios to show off a character strength, then suddenly that strength doesn't exist.  We're told about it.  We see and hear hints of it.  And all of that sits exactly where it should for someone who is skilled at The Game. 

 

No.

 

As the TV tropes article elegantly points out which I shall paraphrase, spoonfeeding the audience what they 'should' be thinking about something accomplishes little but degrading the integrity of the story. I can no longer trust it. The narrator tells me that Vivienne has this quality, but what I see and hear with my own eyes and ears contradicts that. What's my conclusion? The story and the writers aren't as smart as I thought they were.

[AresKeith]

Using TVtropes? Lol

[daveliam]

What's my conclusion? The story and the writers aren't as smart as I thought they were.