824 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

I'm on my phone so I can't quote properly, sorry. The Aenerin talk is slightly off topic but I just want to clarify something: he was accepted into A clan AT ONE POINT. There's, literally, zero evidence that he's still an actve clan member to any clan, let alone Zathrian's clan specifically. People are making big assumptions here.

[Legion of 1337]

She's not a bad character, I just don't like her at all.

 

My Inquisitor's differences of opinion with Cassandra seem moot in comparison.

[LobselVith8]

So what if not all clans kick out the extra mages? Some still do. How is it that not everyone doing it changes the fact that it does happen?

If it doesn't apply to everyone, then it's incorrect to say that it's applicable to everyone. It isn't difficult to grasp why it's an issue for Vivienne to wrongfully think all the clans act in the same manner.

[Addai]

Vivienne's opinionated. That said, I don't know anyone who changes their views after one conversation with someone who is conflict with them.
 
And the Inquisitor's experiences are of ONE clan. Why would Vivienne believe other Dalish clans don't kick out their mages just because the Inquisitor's clan doesn't?
 
And Vivienne's views go beyond just her experiences with the Dalish, but her personal experiences with the circle and how she knows mages are treated in other areas of Thedas.
 
I honestly don't understand how you expect Vivienne's views to change based on one sentence your Inquisitor speaks. 
 
 
 
It's not a reta con. It's been said in the previous games that the Dalish move their mages around so there aren't too many mages in one clan. The question has always been there of what happens where are there no clans for the mages to move to. Minave answers that question.

As Lob pointed out, Merrill was moved because there wasn't enough mages, not too many. In fact it was stated that magic was declining among the Dalish, so while not exactly a retcon, many of us think the idea of Dalish kicking children into the snow because they're scared of magic and/or templars to be illogical and a bone thrown to make the Circle system appear in a more positive light.

 

As for Vivienne, the problem in that conversation is not her mention of the Dalish practice, it's that she draws a false dichotomy. In her argument, the only two options are templar control and imprisonment of most mages except those like herself, or complete anarchy and abominations running wild. Since she's angling for power, the former suits her ambitions much better than the latter.

[songsmith2003]

Sometimes I like her; sometimes I don't. I liked the Dorian convo when I received it. I wasn't so happy when I finished up the mages/templars in the Hinterlands. Blackwall said something like, "Now the farmers can be safe." Her response was something like, "And I am just soooooooooooo happy for them, Darling." I'm afraid I don't recall the exact words, but it left me with the feeling that she didn't care at all for the "little people" in her high-powered world. I'd considered supporting her this time around for Divine, but not after that.

[AshenEndymion]

Prior to Inquisition, it was done because magic was dying out among the Dalish.

 

Prior to Inquisition it was stated that Clans took in mages because magic was dying out among the Dalish...  It was never explained why some Dalish clans give up mages...

 

According to Aneirin, he was welcomed into the clan and taught elven magic; he also lived long enough among the Dalish to be given vallaslin. He also says he left of his own volition, but follows the clan because he feels indebted to them, which they have no problem with since they all know that he follows them.

 

According to Aneirin, he left the clan.  And thus he isn't Dalish.  No one, including Aneirin, acts as though he is Dalish.  No one, including Aneirin, ever says he is Dalish.

 

You say he is Dalish for only one reason:  because you say he is, and it helps your argument...

 

Solas says the Dalish are divergent, while Vivienne acts as though they are all the same. There's a difference between the two.

 

With Solas, the Inquisitor acts as though the Dalish are all the same, too....  The Player can choose to agree with Solas, or be as obstinate as Vivienne.

 

It should be pointed out, though, that Vivienne never actually says the Dalish are all the same.  And when confronted on it, says "of course not all Dalish clans are the same, but..."  Which is basically what the IQ can say to Solas...

[Ryriena]

My issues is the fact my argument is basiclly saying "oh yeah well the Dales, didn't need Templars". Then she claimed she knew more about my peoples ways than I did by saying "I thought the Dalish had a three Mage pre clan rule" . My Inqusitior went stupid about it by saying yeah we do, or no we don't. I don't even get to say "No we do not you, Shem."

[LobselVith8]

I'm on my phone so I can't quote properly, sorry. The Aenerin talk is slightly off topic but I just want to clarify something: he was accepted into A clan AT ONE POINT. There's, literally, zero evidence that he's still an actve clan member to any clan, let alone Zathrian's clan specifically. People are making big assumptions here.

Aneirin was welcomed into the clan when there were already three mages, and only left because he wanted to many years later; he still follows the clan, because he feels he owes them a debt.

No one is making an "assumption" here; people are simply addressing the fact that Aneirin was brought into the clan, and wasn't forced out; he's allowed to follow the clan, and they speak about him positively as 'Aneirin the Healer'.

[Iakus]

If it doesn't apply to everyone, then it's incorrect to say that it's applicable to everyone. It isn't difficult to grasp why it's an issue for Vivienne to wrongfully think all the clans act in the same manner.

But at the same time, Vivienne's is proof that the abuses Circle mages suffer are not universal either. 

[Heidirs]

As Lob pointed out, Merrill was moved because there wasn't enough mages, not too many. In fact it was stated that magic was declining among the Dalish, so while not exactly a retcon, many of us think the idea of Dalish kicking children into the snow because they're scared of magic and/or templars to be illogical and a bone thrown to make the Circle system appear in a more positive light.

 

That doesn't mean her entire story can be ignored because players decided it was illogical and inconsistent. Bioware put her there as part of the overall story.

 

Merrill was moved because her clan needed a First. Minave was kicked out because no clan near her did. Both stories hold true.

[daveliam]

Aneirin was welcomed into the clan when there were already three mages, and only left because he wanted to many years later; he still follows the clan, because he feels he owes them a debt.

No one is making an "assumption" here; people are simply addressing the fact that Aneirin was brought into the clan, and wasn't forced out; he's allowed to follow the clan, and they speak about him positively as 'Aneirin the Healer'.

Again, you are making assumptions. How do you know when he left the clan? How do you know it was on his own accord? I've gone back and watched the footage of that quest recently and there is nothing about any of that in the game. What we know for sure: he has vallasin (sp?) so he was accepted into A clan, but we don't know which one; he has a good relationship with Zathrian's clan, but seems to live away from them; and he's a Mage. That's what we know for sure. Anything beyond that is an assumption on your part.

[AshenEndymion]

Aneirin was welcomed into the clan when there were already three mages, and only left because he wanted to many years later; he still follows the clan, because he feels he owes them a debt.

No one is making an "assumption" here; people are simply addressing the fact that Aneirin was brought into the clan, and wasn't forced out; he's allowed to follow the clan, and they speak about him positively as 'Aneirin the Healer'.

 

We don't know the status of the mages within Zathrian's clan when Aneirin arrived.  Lanaya may or may not have been saved at that point...  And, if the latter, Aneirin may have volunteered to leave so Lanaya could be trained...

[Sarielle]

If it doesn't apply to everyone, then it's incorrect to say that it's applicable to everyone. It isn't difficult to grasp why it's an issue for Vivienne to wrongfully think all the clans act in the same manner.

 

She doesn't say they do. In fact, she uses the phrases "As I understand it" and follows up with a question, "What if no clan is in need of a first or second?"

 

I think memory/emotion have warped this conversation quite a bit. Here's a clip of the actual convo, so we're all starting from the same point. I played this pretty recently, but even I didn't remember it exactly as it happened.

 

Youtube clip: linkie

 

(EDIT: Excuse the 10 or so extra seconds on the front. I had to tab out to make sure I remembered my fraps recording hotkey.  )

[LobselVith8]

Prior to Inquisition it was stated that Clans took in mages because magic was dying out among the Dalish... It was never explained why some Dalish clans give up mages...

Actually, as Merrill's codex reads, "As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."

With Solas, the Inquisitor acts as though the Dalish are all the same, too.... The Player can choose to agree with Solas, or be as obstinate as Vivienne.

Solas says the clans have become divergent from one another due to their separation since the fall of the Dales. He's also willing to listen to the opinion of others, even if they disagree with him, and can admit when he's wrong.

It should be pointed out, though, that Vivienne never actually says the Dalish are all the same. And when confronted on it, says "of course not all Dalish clans are the same, but..." Which is basically what the IQ can say to Solas...

No, she counters with a question that makes it clear she isn't listening to the Inquisitor clarifying the Dalish for her.

[Heidirs]

Here's the wiki page on Aneirin: http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Aneirin

 

Honestly, I don't think Aneirin can be used as proof that the Dalish will accept multiple mages since we don't know exactly when he was with them. It's possible they didn't have as many mages when he first joined. He also later leaves the clan, which would solve the issue of having multiple mages (though that's not the reason he leaves).

[Mushashi7]

Vivienne is a good politician. It's just a shame she works for the wrong ideas.

[Iakus]

We don't know the status of the mages within Zathrian's clan when Aneirin arrived.  Lanaya may or may not have been saved at that point...  And, if the latter, Aneirin may have volunteered to leave so Lanaya could be trained...

Or the clan simply doesn't follow the "rule of three"

[LobselVith8]

Again, you are making assumptions. How do you know when he left the clan? How do you know it was on his own accord?

He was taken in when he was a boy, and he has vallaslin. He also states he left of his own accord, because he wanted to live among nature, where he says he's learned much.

I've gone back and watched the footage of that quest recently and there is nothing about any of that in the game.

You can ask Aneirin all these questions when you speak to him by the campfire.

What we know for sure: he has vallasin (sp?) so he was accepted into A clan, but we don't know which one; he has a good relationship with Zathrian's clan, but seems to live away from them; and he's a Mage. That's what we know for sure. Anything beyond that is an assumption on your part.

You only think that because you never asked Aneirin these questions about his history.

[Ryriena]

But at the same time, Vivienne's is proof that the abuses Circle mages suffer are not universal either.

But yeah that because she had a noble backing her and thus was given more leeway ie The Game.

[Nic Mercy]

I like Viv, and I love to "dislike" her too! I don't agree with some of her positions but overall she's an interesting character and I'd rather have her around than not even if we don't see eye to eye on everything

[Heidirs]

Actually, as Merrill's codex reads, "As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."

 

Merrill is encountered 10 years before the events of Inquisition. Maybe the Dalish experienced a surge of magic in their children. Or maybe it just happened that all the clans surrounding Minave already had a first and a second and she had nowhere to go. None of this would contradict or void Merrill's codex.

[Iakus]

But yeah that because she had a noble backing her and thus was given more leeway ie The Game.

 

Talking to her, it seems she enjoyed the Circle life (well, except for the Harrowing) even before joining the Orlesian court.

[Barquiel]

Vivienne did everything in her power to escape the trappings of the Circle, she doesn't really prove anything when it comes to circle life.

[daveliam]

He was taken in when he was a boy, and he has vallaslin. He also states he left of his own accord, because he wanted to live among nature, where he says he's learned much.


You can ask Aneirin all these questions when you speak to him by the campfire.


You only think that because you never asked Aneirin these questions about his history.

I've looked for footage of this and can't find it anywhere and it's not in the wiki. I'm not convinced of it because I'm a 'completionist' and have no recollection of him saying these things. I admit I might be wrong, but I'm not convinced because I haven't seen it and no one has provided any proof of it. I'll keep an eye out for it when I replay at some point but I'm not going to go back to play just to get to that conversation.

[AresKeith]

Vivienne did everything in her power to escape the trappings of the Circle, she doesn't really prove anything when it comes to circle life.

 

Nobody really can by that