430 réponses à ce sujet

[Owlfruit Potion]

Yeah.  To be honest, it's not like they owe us an explanation on this.  But it would be nice to know.  Just for my own personal edification.

Yeah, I definitely don't mean to imply that they owe us an explanation (or that they would owe us a patch if it was a time issue and not a character decision). I just wonder if this debate is ever going to end if they don't. Well, the debate on Cullen in particular. The "DA2 romance distribution model vs. DA:I romance distribution model" thing is probably going to be eternal no matter what.

The leadup to DA:I was my first time "participating in a fandom" and I'd be lying if I said some of the name-calling on both sides over the character sexuality issue, and Cullen in particular, hadn't negatively affected my enjoyment of the thing we're trying to enjoy together here. 

 

Really. After Anders, Kaiden, and now, Cullen, I really hope Bioware just creates characters with their sexualities in mind or just not make them romanceable.

*dies on the "Gaider always saw Anders as bi" hill*

[sandalisthemaker]

 

Answer:  Two.  That's right.  Only two guys ever until 2011!

When they decided that Anders was bisexual, that was the first game where gay guys had more than one option.  Part of the reason why they did it was to start giving us equitable choices.  Was it the 'correct' option?  Not sure.  The same thing with Kaidan (2012).  That was only the second game where we got two options.  Again, it was about finally giving us two options. 

 

 

 

 

And this is why it annoys me to see posts like, "You guys are whiners/entitled!!!"

[Monica21]

That's what I thought. No, I'm good. I don't need to read homophobic blogs.

Here's a hint, if you are afraid of saying it because it will come off as homophobic.......that means it's homophobic.

 

"I'm not racist, but..."

 

Okay?

 

I understand that the writers do what they want to do. That's fine. 

 

The reason the bisexual Cullen issue has some people annoyed is that there is conflicting information about it.

 

On the one hand you have some devs saying that is how they wanted Cullen to be, and on the other you have the dev tweet saying that Cullen was meant to be bisexual in DA:I but they 'ran out of time.'

 

Re: the bolded, it was a former employee who was in QA, I think, and that employee's knowledge may very well be limited by the kind of work s/he was doing and the fact that s/he left prior to release. If an employee is in QA I'm not sure how close they'd be to development decisions. I don't see much reason to take the word of someone who used to work for Bioware at face value without a heaping grain of salt.

 

Harsh ....and no you don't know that. I will say this . There is zero evidence that the man holds any desires for the same sex . Nor past or present . Even with a great character like Doran who I wanted as a LI after Cullen is  a SS LI . And people are still bitching . Making Cullen bi was consider and nothing more . Be grateful for what you have . I am.

From what I can see the fandom is acting like a class of spoiled children . 

 

There's actually zero evidence that he doesn't hold sexual desires for the same sex. This "it doesn't fit his personality" argument is shameful in 2015. There's next to nothing known about Cullen's sexual preference, except that he confesses a crush and then freaks out and runs away if a female mage wants him to act on it. That's like, a minute and a half of in-game "evidence." That is not evidence of heterosexuality. And that's literally all there is to point to. There's nothing in DA2 that would manifest itself as straight or bi. So saying that there's no evidence that he holds desires for the same sex is not proof of heterosexuality.

[wiccame]

And that is fine when talking about game mechanics, but that argument is being used as a primary reason as to why it doesn't make sense for a character like Cullen to be bisexual.  Why it doesn't fit his personality or whatever.

 

Well, apparently there are other reasons, but the posters decline to elaborate. 

Ahh apologies, I missed the 'extend beyond' part.

[ThreeF]

I've never played F Amell or Surana, but doesn't Cullen having a crush on them happen regardless of player choice? There's no Keep option for it and it comes up in DAI, so I would assume so. You have to remember that DA doesn't exist in a bubble, and a lot of male players would not be happy with a male NPC being infatuated with their character if they don't have a choice in it. I don't think they would do that in 2015, let alone in 2009. Also, particularly in DAO and to a leser extent DA2, queer characters are a bit reluctant or defensive about their previous same-sex relationships. Even if there's no legally enforced homophobia, it's obviously still considered something odd. Cullen might not have been comfortable voicing an attraction to a male warden when he didn't know it was reciprocated, even if he had felt that way.

 

This is all based on if they had made him a bisexual LI in Inquisition.

Even from female perspective it was done for laughs, which kind of made me uncomfortable because it  was a lowbrow joke. One also should remember that Cullen at that point in development was meant to be a one time character.

[Monica21]

I've never played F Amell or Surana, but doesn't Cullen having a crush on them happen regardless of player choice? There's no Keep option for it and it comes up in DAI, so I would assume so. You have to remember that DA doesn't exist in a bubble, and a lot of male players would not be happy with a male NPC being infatuated with their character if they don't have a choice in it. I don't think they would do that in 2015, let alone in 2009. Also, particularly in DAO and to a leser extent DA2, queer characters are a bit reluctant or defensive about their previous same-sex relationships. Even if there's no legally enforced homophobia, it's obviously still considered something odd. Cullen might not have been comfortable voicing an attraction to a male warden when he didn't know it was reciprocated, even if he had felt that way.

 

This is all based on if they had made him a bisexual LI in Inquisition.

 

Considering player reaction to Anders hitting on them, well, yeah, I can see this point. Even if Origins was previous to DA2.

[daveliam]

I just don't think that calling someone out directly as a homophobe is the most productive way to reach them.

 

If someone is being homophobic, I have no issues with calling them out directly.  There are times when someone is dancing around being homophobic and they just need to be told that people see through that approach and that it's not cool to be homophobic anymore.  If someone wants to be educated, I'm always open for more discussion.  But that doesn't mean that I'm always going to use kid gloves.  I guess a way to look at is that sometimes a sledgehammer is the best tool to knock down a wall that is in the way. 

 

Not sure if that is aimed at my argument but I am going to address this any way.

If he were to be bisexual than yes he would have had the same reaction to a male pc as he did a female pc. Any potential LI or flirtable character will flirt with/hit on either gender if they were intended that way. To say he just didn't like YOUR male pc doesn't make sense for one particular character if it hasn't been done before with any other. 

I'm not sure if it was aimed at you specifically or not (this thread is really moving).  To clarify my own thinking:

 

I agree that he was likely intended to be straight for the reasons that you specifically list.  However, since it was never confirmed, it's not that big of a deal to reveal that he's actually bisexual, since bisexual guys don't have immediately declare their interest in men after declaring their interest in a particular woman.  If he had turned down a male Amell/Surana, like he does the Inquisitor, then I'd be 100% in agreement.  Instead, we assume that he's straight because only female can flirt with him.  Probably correct in this case, but not "definitely" or "clearly" or any of the other definitive clarifiers that people use when describing it.

 

Does that make sense?  I'm not sure if that was worded terribly clearly.

[wiccame]

I've never played F Amell or Surana, but doesn't Cullen having a crush on them happen regardless of player choice? There's no Keep option for it and it comes up in DAI, so I would assume so. You have to remember that DA doesn't exist in a bubble, and a lot of male players would not be happy with a male NPC being infatuated with their character if they don't have a choice in it. I don't think they would do that in 2015, let alone in 2009. Also, particularly in DAO and to a leser extent DA2, queer characters are a bit reluctant or defensive about their previous same-sex relationships. Even if there's no legally enforced homophobia, it's obviously still considered something odd. Cullen might not have been comfortable voicing an attraction to a male warden when he didn't know it was reciprocated, even if he had felt that way.

 

This is all based on if they had made him a bisexual LI in Inquisition.

I understand that but I am just saying if the DEV's had intended him to be bi then that wouldn't have stopped them adding it in, they had Zevran so they weren't shying away from it. That to me just reinforces that he was straight, as even if he doesn't get flirted with by a female character it is still mentioned in DAI but nothing on a male character.

[Melca36]

Again with this?

 

Why the blanket statements?  Why the hostility?

 

I'm just being honest.  There are extremists on BOTH sides of the issues.  And Please don't assume I'm a homophobe. I've personally fought for marriage equality for my brother and my friends. Ive been to jail for civil disobedience. I've been pushed, spit at, kick in the ribs. I have the scars.

 

What I don't like is armchair activisim.   Online Social Justice is not the same as real life Social Justice.  

 

When all is said and done....I just believe in in fairness.  

 

I will call out anybody who wants Dorian straight too.  Too many in this fandom suffer from blind hypocrisy though.

 

 

I just wish alot of people would just openly admit this is about not getting what they want instead of hiding behind the banner of representation.   We can't always get what we want in the world.  The developers are doing the best they can.

[sandalisthemaker]

Considering player reaction to Anders hitting on them, well, yeah, I can see this point. Even if Origins was previous to DA2.

 

Let's not forget Zevran's 'Do I have your permission to hit on you?' 

[ThreeF]

I understand that but I am just saying if the DEV's had intended him to be bi then that wouldn't have stopped them adding it in, they had Zevran so they weren't shying away from it. That to me just reinforces that he was straight, as even if he doesn't get flirted with by a female character it is still mentioned in DAI but nothing on a male character.

He was not meant to be anything at that point. But regardless you don't always see bisexuals hitting on both female and males,not how it works.

[leadintea]

To be honest, I actually think that they are getting much better about this.

Fun fact:  Do you know how many m/m options existed in all of Bioware's games prior to DA 2? 

 

Answer:  Two.  That's right.  Only two guys ever until 2011!

When they decided that Anders was bisexual, that was the first game where gay guys had more than one option.  Part of the reason why they did it was to start giving us equitable choices.  Was it the 'correct' option?  Not sure.  The same thing with Kaidan (2012).  That was only the second game where we got two options.  Again, it was about finally giving us two options. 

 

In DA: I, they did that without using an already existing character.  It's easier for them now because it's expected and there should be no controversy around it.  I'm confident that we will see less and less of the "formerly thought to be straight but are now revealed to be bisexual guys' going forward.

 

I realize that us gay guys have been screwed over in the LI department, but I'd personally have them keep the character as they were than change them just to offer us options. It sends a message that they don't really care about creating real gay characters, just that they want to reach some quota they can check off to keep us pleased and it just rubs me the wrong way.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I understand that but I am just saying if the DEV's had intended him to be bi then that wouldn't have stopped them adding it in, they had Zevran so they weren't shying away from it. That to me just reinforces that he was straight, as even if he doesn't get flirted with by a female character it is still mentioned in DAI but nothing on a male character.

A male Warden gets a choice in it when it comes to Zevran, though. Male mage Warden wouldn't have gotten a choice if that had been part of the game. That's the point. And of course he doesn't bring up feelings for a male Warden in DAI, they decided against making him a bisexual LI. If they had gone through with it, perhaps he would have. We'll never know since it's all just theoretical at this point. However, unless someone specifically says they're not attracted to the same sex, all we can do is assume they're straight. Which is fine, but it's not retconning if our assumptions prove to be false since they were, after all, just assumptions.

[TammieAZ]

 

 

 

There's actually zero evidence that he doesn't hold sexual desires for the same sex. This "it doesn't fit his personality" argument is shameful in 2015. There's next to nothing known about Cullen's sexual preference, except that he confesses a crush and then freaks out and runs away if a female mage wants him to act on it. That's like, a minute and a half of in-game "evidence." That is not evidence of heterosexuality. And that's literally all there is to point to. There's nothing in DA2 that would manifest itself as straight or bi. So saying that there's no evidence that he holds desires for the same sex is not proof of heterosexuality.

 

It's more than what they have. And to quote Gaider : Characters have to justify being straight.

[sandalisthemaker]

It's more than what they have. And to quote Gaider : Characters have to justify being straight.

 

Yeah, and in all other media, characters have to justify being gay or bisexual. 

 

Scratch that, even now on these forums, non-straight characters still have to justify being non-straight. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I just wish alot of people would just openly admit this is about not getting what they want instead of hiding behind the banner of representation.   We can't always get what we want in the world.  The developers are doing the best they can.

For some people, it is the principles of the issue, though. I did romance Cullen with a female Inquisitor, and frankly, I thought it was boring. If for some reason they did decide to finish and patch in the m/m Cullen romance, I probably wouldn't even bother playing it. So, no, that's not why I'm here discussing it.

[AresKeith]

And this is why it annoys me to see posts like, "You guys are whiners/entitled!!!"

 

To be fair, that's mostly directed at people who complain about both of their options

 

(mostly those who keep saying Cass and Josie look like men  )

[wiccame]

He was not meant to be anything at that point. But regardless you don't always see bisexuals hitting on both female and males,not how it works.

Yes but in the game world you do. They don't shut out one gender if they are intended for both, that's all I was saying. 

[Monica21]

It's more than what they have. And to quote Gaider : Characters have to justify being straight.

 

Tammie, you're trying to use in-game evidence to point to Cullen being straight. The fact is that there is none other than your own headcanon. Nobody is disagreeing with Gaider's quote and nobody is disagreeing with Cullen being presented in-game as straight. There are a ton of people who hoped for a bi Cullen and were disappointed. Then the files were found that there were some recordings that represented him as bi and that caused frustration. Nobody is angry or saying that Cullen is bi because of these lines. It's frustration that there is a character that they wanted to romance as male and can't.

[ThreeF]

It's more than what they have. And to quote Gaider : Characters have to justify being straight.

From the look of it, It seems that everyone need to justify their sexual orientation *rolls eyes*

[Catwall]

There's actually zero evidence that he doesn't hold sexual desires for the same sex. This "it doesn't fit his personality" argument is shameful in 2015. There's next to nothing known about Cullen's sexual preference, except that he confesses a crush and then freaks out and runs away if a female mage wants him to act on it. That's like, a minute and a half of in-game "evidence." That is not evidence of heterosexuality. And that's literally all there is to point to. There's nothing in DA2 that would manifest itself as straight or bi. So saying that there's no evidence that he holds desires for the same sex is not proof of heterosexuality.

This! I mean for goodness sake, if his behavior in DAO is considered primary evidence for his not being bi, that is sad. I've been married to a man for 18 years, but they haven't revoked my bi card (yet). And they'd f__ing better not, because I love all the discounted services it gets me.

[ThreeF]

Yes but in the game world you do. They don't shut out one gender if they are intended for both, that's all I was saying. 

I hope not, it is weird.

 

I know  what you mean, but generally Cullen at that point is neither straight nor gay, nor bi. He exist to provide a joke.

[actionhero112]

Maybe cullen is bi and you're just not his type. 

 

I think it has something to do with your fugly hair. You should change that. 

[wiccame]

I hope not, it is weird.

 

I know  what you mean, but generally Cullen at that point is neither straight nor gay, nor bi. He exist to provide a joke.

If that were the case then a male character could flirt with him just as easily. But yes at that point he was just a very minor character whose development didn't go much beyond that.

[ThreeF]

If that were the case then a male character could flirt with him just as easily. But yes at that point he was just a very minor character whose development didn't go much beyond that.

As (Disgusted noise.) pointed out it probably was omitted to avoid the possibility of freaking out some lets say... tender souls.