430 réponses à ce sujet

[Caja]

I agree with this 100%.  I have absolutely no issue with an author writing a character as bisexual and then deciding, mid-production, that the story works better for them as a straight character.  I can understand it and it's within the author's right to do so without criticism, I think.  But saying that a character can't be gay or bisexual because it doesn't "make sense for his personality" is total and complete BS and definitely rooted in nasty stereotypes.  To answer your question, I don't think personality shapes sexuality, but I do think that sexuality can shape personality because of societal pressures/norms.  What I mean by that is that I totally believe that if you had a 'feminine' gay guy grow up in an open and accepting environment and that same 'feminine' gay guy grow up in a oppressive and homophobic environment, his personality as an adult would likely be different in some ways.  Not all ways; not even in most ways, but in some ways. 

 

...

I agree especially with the bolded part and I am glad you brought this up. In my opinion personality and sexuality are not two seperated things. I, too, believe that our sexuality is one of the many aspects which shape our personality. Therefore, it seems unfair to me that the argument of Cullen's 'sexuality does not fit his personality' is seen in such a negative light. Personally, I had no issue with a bi Cullen if something prior to DAI had indicated that he were in fact bi. But there was never any visible evidence for the player. I think a game should communicate such things if they are important. The fact that Cullen never shows any infatuation for a male warden is proof - to me at least - that he is not into men.

One could argue, of course, that Anders never mentions his bisexuality either if you play a female Hawke. To be honest, the implementation of Ander's bisexuality bothered me a bit (note: not the bisexuality itself).  I only found out about it because I read it in the forum here. It seemed rather odd to me that Anders never talked about it in relationship that lasted several years and I say that as someone who has gay friends and a lesbian co-worker. They all talked about their boyfriends/girlfriends, former and ongoing relationships, so why wouldn't Anders do something similar? It was a poor game design choice in my opinion and I'm glad that they didn't do something similar for Cullen because it would feel retconned.

 

 

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I'm pretty sure I've seen devs say here and/or in videos from conference panels that the Kaidan and Ashley same-sex romance lines were just part of that thing where it was easier to have both Sheps record all lines than to filter out who gets what. Though with the mixed messages we've received about Cullen, and that "Shepard is straight" BS, who knows.

That's what I heard as well and that's why I asked further up the thread if Cullen was the only character who had cut content. Part of me thought that maybe all of the voice actors recorded lines for both genders to give the devs a wider scope to work with. Then again I think that such an approach would probably be quite expensive. 

 

 

Doesn't it come up during Broken Circle? Or is that only if you press him about during the Origin?

Noxpanda has already answered that but I just found the video, so here you go :

 

[ThreeF]

Is that the same voice actor?

[Sarielle]

There are lots of orientation/representatives that aren't in the game. Like an already married hero

 

I think it could be really interesting to start out married, especially as nobility. Then you get to decide if they love teh spouse, don't but remain faithful, etc. Fun thing to explore imo.

[Owlfruit Potion]

That's what I heard as well and that's why I asked further up the thread if Cullen was the only character who had cut content. Part of me thought that maybe all of the voice actors recorded lines for both genders to give the devs a wider scope to work with. Then again I think that such an approach would probably be quite expensive. 

I think they'd stopped doing that by the time ME3 was produced (EDIT: assuming the DA and ME teams both had the same policy on this, which I'm not sure is true... I guess DA not having a voiced protagonist in DA:O or single-gender LIs in DA2 makes it irrelevant), and furthermore I think the nature of two of the 3ish cut Cullen romance lines that are still easily accessible in the game's sound files (the Dorian and Cassandra conflict ones) preclude it being a case of copy and paste for them.

It is possible that scenes whose VO was recorded earlier in development kept more romance options open than they necessarily thought they'd use in the end (we know Cullen's VO sessions had already started in summer 2012, so presumably the Inquisitors' and the other Inner Circle members' had as well) and those are the ones we have cut content for. But it's also possible that they recorded the whole thing but only failed to clean up those few lines from the game as released, or they recorded the whole thing and the rest of the files are just harder to get at, etc.

 

Is that the same voice actor?

Yep!

[Cespar]

I think it could be really interesting to start out married, especially as nobility. Then you get to decide if they love teh spouse, don't but remain faithful, etc. Fun thing to explore imo.

That would be neat. Most likely they only got married for the power, and not real love. That would bring the love interests that is offered to the player to a whole new level. Would your lover accept you with a husband/wife? That would bring drama to the romance arc.

[daveliam]

I agree especially with the bolded part and I am glad you brought this up. In my opinion personality and sexuality are not two seperated things. I, too, believe that our sexuality is one of the many aspects which shape our personality. Therefore, it seems unfair to me that the argument of Cullen's 'sexuality does not fit his personality' is seen in such a negative light.

 

I have less of an issue with people saying that Cullen 'doesn't make sense' as bisexual because he didn't hit on a male Amell/Surana.  My issue is when people say that it "doesn't make sense" as bisexual because he "just doesn't seem like a bisexual guy".  That's offensive bullshit, I think.  That's the stuff that pisses me off because it insinuates that masculine warrior men can't be bisexual.  It's the long-time stereotypes that all LGBT guys have to act a certain way and that way can't be masculine.

[ThreeF]

That would be neat. Most likely they only got married for the power, and not real love. That would bring the love interests that is offered to the player to a whole new level. Would your lover accept you with a husband/wife? That would bring drama to the romance arc.

People generally seem to have problem with cheaters and liars, so I'm not sure if this will be all that  well accepted

 

Some still feel icky over the Dark Ritual

[Cespar]

People generally seem to have problem with cheaters and liars, so I'm not sure if this will be all that  well accepted

 

Some still feel icky over the Dark Ritual

Well it isn't really cheating, if the nobles only married for power rather than feelings. And this fandom generally has a problem with everything.

 

The thing about games with CHOICES is that it puts the decision in your hand, unless it's a illusion of choice.    

[Caja]

I have less of an issue with people saying that Cullen 'doesn't make sense' as bisexual because he didn't hit on a male Amell/Surana.  My issue is when people say that it "doesn't make sense" as bisexual because he "just doesn't seem like a bisexual guy".  That's offensive bullshit, I think.  That's the stuff that pisses me off because it insinuates that masculine warrior men can't be bisexual.  It's the long-time stereotypes that all LGBT guys have to act a certain way and that way can't be masculine.

I understand. Thanks for the clarification .

[Eterna]

Have you even played the other games-let alone paid attention to his character and personality!?!

 

Not to mention the developers/writer even said he was straight and being any other did not fit him. Thus I do not see why we are....

 

 

 

His personality has nothing to do with his sexuality. I'm not saying he should be straight or gay, I don't even like Cullen. 

 

I just find the argument of "Being bi doesn't suit his personality" to be ludicrous because gay, straight and bi people don't have set personalities. Cullen would still be Cullen if he had a different sexuality, just like you would still be you if you had a different sexuality. 

[BabyPuncher]

I have less of an issue with people saying that Cullen 'doesn't make sense' as bisexual because he didn't hit on a male Amell/Surana.  My issue is when people say that it "doesn't make sense" as bisexual because he "just doesn't seem like a bisexual guy".  That's offensive bullshit, I think.  That's the stuff that pisses me off because it insinuates that masculine warrior men can't be bisexual.  It's the long-time stereotypes that all LGBT guys have to act a certain way and that way can't be masculine.

 

'Can't' is a very strong word.

 

But the simple fact is, 'masculine warrior men' in fiction are generally made to represent an ideal. And the reality is that that the overwhelmingly majority of straight men find gay romance between men to be, at best, off putting.

 

You'd be silly to imagine that's not going to have an effect.

[BabyPuncher]

...just like you would still be you if you had a different sexuality. 

 

Completely disagree.
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Are you referring to asexuality?   

In part, yes. 

 

There are lots of orientation/representatives that aren't in the game. Like an already married hero, non-muscle people, transgender(male to female), and many more I can't think of as of right now.

I know. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As for the protagonist starting out married, I don't think Bioware will do that. I can see them doing something like one of the followers being someone you are meant to get married to by your family, and through the game you either fall in love with them and marry, do it for some other reason, or both agree to call it off since you love someone else or some other reason. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

'Can't' is a very strong word.

 

But the simple fact is, 'masculine warrior men' in fiction are generally made to represent an ideal. And the reality is that that the overwhelmingly majority of straight men find gay romance between men to be, at best, off putting.

 

You'd be silly to imagine that's not going to have an effect.

 

Ignoring the rest of the nonsense, how does straight men's feelings about same sex romance have anything to do with what is being discussed here?

[BabyPuncher]

Ignoring the rest of the nonsense, how does straight men's feelings about same sex romance have anything to do with what is being discussed here?

 

Because, shocking as it may be for you to realize, creators of media have to create content people actually enjoy and want to spend money on? And straight men are a huge, huge, chunk of audience, very often the majority of the audience?

[ThreeF]

Because, shocking as it may be for you to realize, creators of media have to create content people actually enjoy and want to spend money on? And straight men are a huge, huge, chunk of audience, very often the majority of the audience?

should games then send all the female characters to kitchen?

[daveliam]

'Can't' is a very strong word.

 

But the simple fact is, 'masculine warrior men' in fiction are generally made to represent an ideal. And the reality is that that the overwhelmingly majority of straight men find gay romance between men to be, at best, off putting.

 

You'd be silly to imagine that's not going to have an effect.

 

The fact that people still think that "ideal" and "gay/bisexual man" are dissonant concepts demonstrates exactly why it's important to have more characters like this so that people will realize why it's a silly idea to start with. 

 

And I agree with (disgusted noise) that if they are writing gay characters with straight men in mind, it's the start of the problem.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Because, shocking as it may be for you to realize, creators of media have to create content people actually enjoy and want to spend money on? And straight men are a huge, huge, chunk of audience, very often the majority of the audience?

Bioware has made a commitment to including same-sex romance options. That's not going to change.

[Eterna]

Completely disagree.
 

 

Then that's your fault for letting your sexuality define you.

[DirkJake]

I have less of an issue with people saying that Cullen 'doesn't make sense' as bisexual because he didn't hit on a male Amell/Surana.  My issue is when people say that it "doesn't make sense" as bisexual because he "just doesn't seem like a bisexual guy".  That's offensive bullshit, I think.  That's the stuff that pisses me off because it insinuates that masculine warrior men can't be bisexual.  It's the long-time stereotypes that all LGBT guys have to act a certain way and that way can't be masculine.

 

Totally agree with this. I hope Bioware will debunk this stereotype in their next game. 

[daveliam]

As for the protagonist starting out married, I don't think Bioware will do that. I can see them doing something like one of the followers being someone you are meant to get married to by your family, and through the game you either fall in love with them and marry, do it for some other reason, or both agree to call it off since you love someone else or some other reason. 

 

This is actually a really good idea for a noble character or a city elf.  Very interesting idea.

[BabyPuncher]

The fact that people still think that "ideal" and "gay/bisexual man" are dissonant concepts demonstrates exactly why it's important to have more characters so that people will realize why it's a silly idea to start with. 

 

And I agree with (disgusted noise) that if they are writing gay characters with straight men in mind, it's the start of the problem. 

 

Ridiculous. I have a right to want what I want. I have a right to not be interested in a film or book that centers on gay romance, where I might be interested in the same content if it was a straight romance.

 

I have every right not to want it. And that's all this is. You demanding that I want and love gayness and hating the idea that I could be indifferent to it.

 

And then, in the very next sentence, you try and claim not to need or care about straight men.

 

Laughable.

 

 

[stop_him]

Cullen was actually intended to not even be a romance option, so hey, wasn't it nice that they made him available at all? 

 

Shall we move on now, or will people continue to cry over spilt milk forever when there is plenty more milk to be had in the future. There will be straight, bisexual, and gay brands. (None of this matters to me though since I'm lactose intolerant: Lord Woolsley 4ever.) For the record, I'm all for a gay KISA miniaturized Blackwall (dwarf) romance next game.

[Eterna]

Ridiculous. I have a right to want what I want. I have a right to not be interested in a film or book that centers on gay romance, where I might be interested in the same content if it was a straight romance.

 

I have every right not to want it. And that's all this is. You demanding that I want and love gayness and hating the idea that I could be indifferent to it.

 

And then, in the very next sentence, you try and claim not to need or care about straight men.

 

Laughable.

 

You are free to not partake in such forms of media and we are free to say we think you are stupid for doing so. I don't really understand your reasoning for disliking gay character arcs so much.