130 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

I'm currently playing through Mass Effect 3 and noticed something that, I think, should be addressed in the next Mass Effect game. It is the attention to little details that make the world. One of the examples of developers paying constant attention to details is Dead Space. Helmet and character animations, shooting, inventory and technology, codex, health, ammo are all presented within the game world, with no visible clipping or weird angles. It all makes the games very immersive and engaging. I'll list a few points that, I think, should receive the most attention.

 

1. Omni-tool. The iconic instrument of Mass Effect universe. But how does it work? We are told, it has a mini-fabricator that can create a huge range of physical objects, yet the tool looks as merely a hologram on the character's arm. Let's leave it for now, though. Let's talk about the most basic element of the omni-tool. When you scan something or NPCs/Shepard "type" something on the tool there is no visible keyboard or any input interface on the omni-tool. Furthermore, there is no screen either. The technology is there, since we can get "video calls" with visible screen in the game. I suggest making the tools more "user-friendly" - make them look like something we might get in the future. 

Another thing to consider with omni-tools is the need for hand gestures. Personally, I would prefer the way Kasumi disables the gunship shields, not hand gestures which are much more suitable for biotics. 

 

2. Helmets. In the trilogy they are presented as separate objects from the suit. The problems it causes are the most visible on Priority: Mars where Shepard repeatedly unequips helmet and it simply disappears only to appear in cutscenes. There are a few ways to remedy this issue. Animated helmets like in Dead Space, transparent visors like the one Joker wears during Normandy destruction, disappearing helmets like in Guardians of the Galaxy. I also fully support the "Off in cutscenes" option for helmet toggle but the way the helmet appears after cutscenes is somewhat immersion-breaking.

 

3. Weapon holstering. Collapsible weapons are cool and interesting idea but when NPC/Shepard holsters them, they just magically attach themselves to the suit. In some cases (using both SMG and pistol) the weapons clip through each other on NPC's/Shepard's hip, despite shown in different locations during loadout screen. I suggest designing suits with that in mind, so when you switch to an assault rifle you will be able to see the place where the weapon is attached. Same with other weapons.

Also disappearing weapons during ladder animations (example) are in need of a fix. Simply playing holster animation when starting to climb ladders will fix that.

 

4. Armor. Mass Effect 3 is the best to customize player character's armor but that comes with some drawbacks. One - clipping issues. clipping issues. Notably, omni-tool hologram clips through all male arm options in character customization. The one with the least clipping is Rosenkov Materials but even that has a clipping issue near elbow. And there are clipping issues with armor pieces themselves. Look, for example, when Shepard climbs a ladder in ME3. You can see how N7 helmet clips through N7 armor - two pieces that are supposed to fit perfectly together. Clipping is also noticeable when Shepard holds with one hand during shuttle landings. It's not exclusive to Shepard too, just look at James's default outfit.

Two - almost the same (if not entirely the same) visual effects when being hit. Shields should produce a different visual effect (and sound), like in ME2 cinematic trailer. Also, might be neat to tie shield charge level to the light intensity on the back of the armor.

[Linkenski]

Attention to detail is, unfortunately Bioware's biggest weakness. At first I'm always astounded by how good their games look but then at some point I start seeing how they constantly let little details slip, from the graphics to the gameplay and to the writing.

 

I wouldn't go expecting NME to have a deep level of attention to detail. I expect better graphics, better particles (when enemies disintegrate or their heads pop like water-balloons) but actual attention to detail? I have lost faith on that one.

 

Perhaps in their new IP though. Supposedly it's going to redfine interactive entertainment according to Casey.

[Vazgen]

Attention to detail is, unfortunately Bioware's biggest weakness. At first I'm always astounded by how good their games look but then at some point I start seeing how they constantly let little details slip, from the graphics to the gameplay and to the writing.

 

I wouldn't go expecting NME to have a deep level of attention to detail. I expect better graphics, better particles (when enemies disintegrate or their heads pop like water-balloons) but actual attention to detail? I have lost faith on that one.

Well, head popping is quite engaging Blowing Cerberus heads with Mantis never gets old

 

I think they have the opportunity to put a lot of detail in here. With new game, new technology and hardware capabilities there is a lot they can do.

There are quite a few little details that I like. For example, Cerberus Engineers have the turret hologram when they deploy the turret and repair it, Tactical Scan shows enemy health and armor, as well as a scaled hologram. They just need to spread that attention to detail to other aspects of the game as well.

[CptFalconPunch]

Bioware does have attention to detail, what they don't have is infinite money and time.

 

It's not like they are lazy people that skip over that stuff. They know its there but can't fix everything.

 

The user however, isn't really aware of it, Developers put tons of money and work  into things you take for granted.

[Vazgen]

Bioware does have attention to detail, what they don't have is infinite money and time.

 

It's not like they are lazy people that skip over that stuff. They know its there but can't fix everything.

 

The user however, isn't really aware of it, Developers put tons of money and work  into things you take for granted.

Completely agreed. That's why I didn't suggest things that require a ton of resources. My suggestions require

1. more attention to details when testing outfits in game

2. new animation for equipping weapon from either hip

3. adding already existing elements to the omni-tool

 

Perhaps minimizing clipping issues will be time consuming, true. I do feel, however, that the game would really benefit from it and it'll be a time well-spent. 

[Linkenski]

I think there was a good quote from Final Hours of ME3 from the lead designer actually.

"Mass Effect 3 is like a million-dollar mansion. If there's just one broken window it's going to look bad"

[KrrKs]

I'm all for new/better Omni-tool visuals and a visible 'omni input field'. The 'Tactical Scan' ability is almost perfect imo, so I guess the devs also want to go that route.

 

About Helmets, ME already has telescoping weapons, so why not folding/telescoping Helmets? Say something like the Goa'uld Jaffa helmets from Stargate, maybe not quite as martial. The pictures from last year seem to indicate a more traditional helmet design, though.

On a side note, I really liked that ME3 used animations for Helmets in cutscenes on Missions like Mars. In the end though, this is pretty much dependent on how the transitions to/from hazardous areas are managed.

 

Weapon holsters: As long as I can holster my weapons myself, I'm fine.

I have no real problem with the 'magical attachment' thing, what bugs me are weapons like the GPR and Phaeston, whose 'attachment point' is so low that they are hovering in the air, on character-models with curved backs, like Garrus and Grunt.

 

As for moddel clipping, considering the number of different combinations that may or may not lead to to it, I don't thing BW will ever get rid of it.IMO, the most important here would be to prevent clipping instances (and stuff like 180° neck turns) in pre-defined Cutscenes/dialogues, that always play out the same (same char-model, position and animation).

[Vortex13]

I always loved the telescoping helmets in Dead Space, as well as everything from weapon ammo counts to health being represented 'in game'.


It would be really cool if we could get that same level of immersion in the Mass Effect series.

[RoboticWater]

Considering both developers are owned by the same corporation, I hope there might be a bit of cross pollination between BioWare and Visceral. Dead Space 2 was beautifully choreographed and had incredibly distinctive world design. And the way they handle their HUD is artistic and genius. BioWare could learn a thing or two from them. First and foremost, I'd say BioWare should focus on purposeful design.

 

The old school sci-fi style that Mass Effect emulates has an unfortunate tendency to call for all sorts of extraneous knobs and LEDs for no other reason than looks. It's good to be visually appealing, but there should be a sense of plausibility. Dead Space does both flawlessly. It furnishes each of its locations with all sorts of interesting props that integrated within the lore. I can still remember the safety signs for stasis and ads for kinetic beds. In contrast, Illium felt more like an empty room dressed like a trade hub. I could see the the stock brokers and the occasional solicitation but they were either too obscure or too mechanical, much like an animatronic. And despite the wild variety of locales (from promenades to preschools to the morgue of insane cultists), Dead Space was able to maintain a consistently stellar atmosphere. 

 

Understandably, BioWare needs to cut a few corners when building an expansive RPG (which is why I'm always in favor of limiting the scope), but I hope they can eventually create worlds which do justice to the complex cultures which inhabit them.

 

I think the same amount of care should be given to the tools of Mass Effect as well. The omni-tool should seem to have an actual interface and should probably replace the idiotic finger-in-ear conversations with more Dead Space like video conferencing. Heck, maybe BioWare can take a few hinds from Sherlock and start presenting all kinds of information within boxes floating in front of us. OP is entirely right, the omni-tool needs to seem like a device people might actually use.

 

I could go on for hours about what Mass Effect could learn from Dead Space (proper use of text, audio, and video logs, weapon diversity, telling brilliant personal stories, elegance within the HUD, etc.); however, I'll stay brief. BioWare has an easy connection to one of the greatest TPSs in recent years (possibly ever) and they should leverage it.

 

About your clipping point; though I wish it could be perfect, the nature of games and bone animation makes it tough to get everything just right. Animation has never been BioWare's strong suit and I'd prefer better facial, body, and cinematic animation before dealing with minor problems (fixing the Krogan's awkward aiming stance couldn't hurt though). Hopefully, this is something BioWare can fix with sleeker armor design (however, the images we've seen so far don't inspire me with that much hope).

[Laughing_Man]

Perhaps in their new IP though. Supposedly it's going to redfine interactive entertainment according to Casey.

 

I... don't know what that means. It could mean quite a few things, but I'm concerned that it might mean limiting player input and choices in order to make the game more cinematic. I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

OP: I couldn't agree more. Dead Space did many things right when it comes to gear and weapons.

 

I would point out one more thing: In this age when mo-cap and advanced CGI are prevalent in many video games, why is it that we see the same tired old animation, or at least variations of them in Dragon Age and Mass Effect?

 

Animations are simply sub-par, you see the same animations being used many times, combat animations that are... not very convincing to say the least, etc.

 

ME3 is slightly better - even if still a long way from the quality of animations you can find in other AAA games, but even this limited improvement did not carry over to DA:I, with animations rating between slightly awkward and outright clumsy. (maybe not all of them, but quite a lot)

[CptFalconPunch]

Completely agreed. That's why I didn't suggest things that require a ton of resources. My suggestions require

1. more attention to details when testing outfits in game

2. new animation for equipping weapon from either hip

3. adding already existing elements to the omni-tool

 

Perhaps minimizing clipping issues will be time consuming, true. I do feel, however, that the game would really benefit from it and it'll be a time well-spent. 

 

How do you imagine devs achieve the first 2 points? Like what is the list of things to do in order to achieve them?

[Vazgen]

How do you imagine devs achieve the first 2 points? Like what is the list of things to do in order to achieve them?

Minimizing the clipping is an integral part of character design. They do it anyway. All I ask is to pay more attention to the matter. It will mainly come to testers to notice the issues and for developers to fix them, probably via adjusting the size and positioning of different armor pieces. The initial concept matters a lot here, concept artists should keep the issue in mind when designing the armors (which they already do, I just ask to focus on this particular issue more). But of course, they need to have those issues relatively high on the priority list, so they are not overlooked. 

Point 2 is pretty self-explanatory. Animators are tasked with creating a new animation for the character to equip a weapon from the right hip. Probably have the right hand grabbing the weapon and then add the left hand for a more firm grasp (Like this). Then this animation is added to the character. It plays when you equip a pistol, other weapons retain their original equipping animations.

[StarcloudSWG]

The reason that weapons 'magically' attach themselves to the armor is because of this little thing you may have heard of.

 

Magnets.

 

Yes, magnets. Or an advanced form of Velcro if you prefer.

 

Holsters are not necessary, and they add complexity to the animation. Animation takes a whole lot of art development time.

[CptFalconPunch]

Minimizing the clipping is an integral part of character design. They do it anyway. All I ask is to pay more attention to the matter. It will mainly come to testers to notice the issues and for developers to fix them, probably via adjusting the size and positioning of different armor pieces. The initial concept matters a lot here, concept artists should keep the issue in mind when designing the armors (which they already do, I just ask to focus on this particular issue more). But of course, they need to have those issues relatively high on the priority list, so they are not overlooked. 

Point 2 is pretty self-explanatory. Animators are tasked with creating a new animation for the character to equip a weapon from the right hip. Probably have the right hand grabbing the weapon and then add the left hand for a more firm grasp (Like this). Then this animation is added to the character. It plays when you equip a pistol, other weapons retain their original equipping animations.

 

As someone that has created 3D assets before, I can assure you the devs are fully aware of the clipping issues. Cause like me, they drive them mad.

Pay more attention to the matter means put a lot more money and time into it. Re-testing and re-fixing, and re-applying the correct textures, skeleton animations, then attach every other one asset to match the new one, then test it again, and again, and again, and again untl it is perfect. You just put people doing the same work for days, if not weeks more, all while occupying more testers, which means, more money. At some point devs have to say, "enough" and ship it as it is, imperfect. 

If lets say, a game breaking bug appears, does the team still polishes those edges or they all get into fixing it before release?

 

This is what happened when this scenario appeared in ME1:

 

 

So the "pay more attention to detail" boils down to , "be more effective, more osberving, faster, smarter, more precise, cooperative and a better working studio overall". It's empty.

 

2. The hip animation is a rather cool one, I don't know why they didn't do it, but If i had to guess it would be hardware limitations. This is a neat little suggestion in a pool of thousands of possible animations,

[Vazgen]

The reason that weapons 'magically' attach themselves to the armor is because of this little thing you may have heard of.

 

Magnets.

 

Yes, magnets. Or an advanced form of Velcro if you prefer.

 

Holsters are not necessary, and they add complexity to the animation. Animation takes a whole lot of art development time.

I know, I didn't ask for holsters in a traditional sense. What I suggested is the place where they attach to be clearly visible. Attaching a weapon to a round surface with a magnet is not really that reliable. The suggestion is to clearly show where the weapons are attached by adding certain elements to the armor in those places.

[wolfhowwl]

I think there was a quote floating around from a BioWare dev outright stating that they cut holstering because of console limitations.

[Vazgen]

As someone that has created 3D assets before, I can assure you the devs are fully aware of the clipping issues. Cause like me, they drive them mad.

Pay more attention to the matter means put a lot more money and time into it. Re-testing and re-fixing, and re-applying the correct textures, skeleton animations, then attach every other one asset to match the new one, then test it again, and again, and again, and again untl it is perfect. You just put people doing the same work for days, if not weeks more, all while occupying more testers, which means, more money. At some point devs have to say, "enough" and ship it as it is, imperfect. 

If lets say, a game breaking bug appears, does the team still polishes those edges or they all get into fixing it before release?

 

This is what happened when this scenario appeared in ME1:

 

 

So the "pay more attention to detail" boils down to , "be more effective, more osberving, faster, smarter, more precise, cooperative and a better working studio overall". It's empty.

 

2. The hip animation is a rather cool one, I don't know why they didn't do it, but If i had to guess it would be hardware limitations. This is a neat little suggestion in a pool of thousands of possible animations,

Of course. There is something as too much focus on a single aspect. With ME3 I felt that they didn't pay as much attention to that particular issue as in the previous titles. For example, omni tool doesn't clip with most (if not all) male arm options in ME2. The game's scope also plays a large role, the larger and open the game is, the more such minor issues will surface. It's a matter of resources. I simply uggest to pay attention to the most glaring issues. Helmet clipping is true for all ladder animations, omni-tool clipping - for all arm options (and I think it has to do with the reduced size and changed positioning of the tool compared to ME2). 

 

Oh and another thing to add (adding it to OP), disappearing weapons during ladder animations (example). Simply playing holster animation when starting to climb ladders will fix that. And that animation is present in the game (visible during cutscenes). 

[Laughing_Man]

I think there was a quote floating around from a BioWare dev outright stating that they cut holstering because of console limitations.

 

Could be. That's the reality of video games these days, and I can live with it. What annoys me the most is that usually developers outright lie about this.

[Vazgen]

I think there was a quote floating around from a BioWare dev outright stating that they cut holstering because of console limitations.

I'm not sure how would holstering weapons strain the game hardware, especially since ME1 had that and ME3 had that in cutscenes. Anyway, they now have more power to work with. Let's hope we get holstering back

[InterrogationBear]

I'm not sure how would holstering weapons strain the game hardware, especially since ME1 had that and ME3 had that in cutscenes. Anyway, they now have more power to work with. Let's hope we get holstering back

You have to load more animations into the RAM if you allow holstering and the PS3 has only 256 MB system RAM. So they had to compromise..

[Farangbaa]

I think there was a quote floating around from a BioWare dev outright stating that they cut holstering because of console limitations.

Really now?

You do know ME1 was an XBox 'exclusive' (word has lost its meaning these days ), right?

[ZipZap2000]

Weapon holstering always bothered me a little and i hope it gets addressed somehow. 

[CptFalconPunch]

I'm not sure how would holstering weapons strain the game hardware, especially since ME1 had that and ME3 had that in cutscenes. Anyway, they now have more power to work with. Let's hope we get holstering back

 
More animations strain the game hardware. 
 

Of course. There is something as too much focus on a single aspect. With ME3 I felt that they didn't pay as much attention to that particular issue as in the previous titles. For example, omni tool doesn't clip with most (if not all) male arm options in ME2. The game's scope also plays a large role, the larger and open the game is, the more such minor issues will surface. It's a matter of resources. I simply uggest to pay attention to the most glaring issues. Helmet clipping is true for all ladder animations, omni-tool clipping - for all arm options (and I think it has to do with the reduced size and changed positioning of the tool compared to ME2). 
 
Oh and another thing to add (adding it to OP), disappearing weapons during ladder animations (example). Simply playing holster animation when starting to climb ladders will fix that. And that animation is present in the game (visible during cutscenes).

I told you, the details you think are glaring, the devs know about. They know their game, better than you do.
Can you change the title in these forums? Perhaps something along the lines of "Collection of graphical bugs in ME3" is a thread a dev would look into.

Also playing the holster animation before climbing down the ladder at its current state would take WAYYY tooo long to the point where players would actively try to avoid them.

And again I'm sure the devs know IRL you have to holster your gun before using a ladder, but chosen to ignore this for various reasons.

 

The problem isn't attention, its time and money. The only thing you can do is point out bugs, not judge their priority lists.

 

EXE: Since ME4 is gonna run the frostbite engine, here is a similar example from the BF games. 

You can spot people even through smokes, the community called DICE lazy bastards for not fixing this till they came out and said it was hardcoded into the engine, which will require a lot of code rewritten in order to fix it. Programming is too complicated sometimes.

[KrrKs]

I think there was a quote floating around from a BioWare dev outright stating that they cut holstering because of console limitations.

More animations strain the game hardware.

I remember that quote, too. But I don't buy that it has to do with hardware-limitations (cpu/gpu/memory at least).

 

The animations have to be loaded anyway -you see them every time you switch to a different weapon!

I'd say the 'limitation' here is the controller-design with not enough buttons.

[InterrogationBear]

The animations have to be loaded anyway -you see them every time you switch to a different weapon!

I'd say the 'limitation' here is the controller-design with not enough buttons.

You need additional animations for walking and running with holstered weapons.