130 réponses à ce sujet

[katamuro]

Well all the armours are correctly displayed and I think weapons too. What does annoy me about some of the cutscenes is that camera sometimes wonders away from the action showing me some perfectly good piece of  a wall or sky and not the people.

[MrFob]

Actually, I don't mind a few clipping errors that much. It would be nicer if they wouldn't occur but I can live with the fact that in 1 out of 50 animations, the helmet clips a little.

 

I think where the ME team really needs to start paying attention to the details is plot and writing. That's where most of the "clipping" occurred in the past IMO. If you are going to start out with one background story for something, stick with it, don't change things mid-gmae (or trilogy as it were). Nicer graphics and and stuff are good (I also love Dead Space's environmental UI btw) but getting the details right in the story is absolutely critical IMO.

 

Oh, btw, whie I can agree with most of your details (we had the helmet discussion a couple of times already I believe and I'd also love telescoping helmets in ME), one word on the omni-tools, I don't mind there "non-existent" interface at all. In fact, i was more bothered by the silly holographic QWERTY keyboards that kept popping up everywhere, starting in ME2 and are really everywhere (even workstations of aliens on the Citadel!!!) in ME3. Did we really convert everyone to QWERTY? In a world, where you have perfect speech recognition, gesture recognition and even neural interfaces and bio-electric feedback controls, would you really expect everyone to still rely on a 250 year old interface? Even today, with modern touch screens, etc., we are moving further and further away from classic keyboard controls, so have a little more imagination here.

[Vazgen]

Actually, I don't mind a few clipping errors that much. It would be nicer if they wouldn't occur but I can live with the fact that in 1 out of 50 animations, the helmet clips a little.

 

I think where the ME team really needs to start paying attention to the details is plot and writing. That's where most of the "clipping" occurred in the past IMO. If you are going to start out with one background story for something, stick with it, don't change things mid-gmae (or trilogy as it were). Nicer graphics and and stuff are good (I also love Dead Space's environmental UI btw) but getting the details right in the story is absolutely critical IMO.

 

Oh, btw, whie I can agree with most of your details (we had the helmet discussion a couple of times already I believe and I'd also love telescoping helmets in ME), one word on the omni-tools, I don't mind there "non-existent" interface at all. In fact, i was more bothered by the silly holographic QWERTY keyboards that kept popping up everywhere, starting in ME2 and are really everywhere (even workstations of aliens on the Citadel!!!) in ME3. Did we really convert everyone to QWERTY? In a world, where you have perfect speech recognition, gesture recognition and even neural interfaces and bio-electric feedback controls, would you really expect everyone to still rely on a 250 year old interface? Even today, with modern touch screens, etc., we are moving further and further away from classic keyboard controls, so have a little more imagination here.

You have a point. What I was saying is that if Shepard types something on the omni-tool, would've been nice to see where does he type that. And QWERTY keyboards actually attribute to that - if everyone is using QWERTY keyboard, how does Shepard type something on the omni-tool without it? And don't get me started with "two fingers at an ear" listening animation. 

There are other minor details, like everyone using the same font - salarians, Protheans, Cerberus... 

I always liked Mass Effect plot and writing, there is a room for improvement, sure, but it's engaging and good enough to have people still discuss the game and the characters after almost three years since the last game. If ME:Next will have trilogy-level writing with a lot of small world details, I think it'll be a good development. ME:Next 2 will be able to take the storytelling to a new level while retaining the level of detail introduced by ME:Next.

[katamuro]

Actually the two fingers to an ear is not that ridicilous. If we assume they are wearing omnitools all the time it could be simple movement command to activate the communication part along with the verbal command. 

[Vazgen]

Actually the two fingers to an ear is not that ridicilous. If we assume they are wearing omnitools all the time it could be simple movement command to activate the communication part along with the verbal command. 

Wouldn't the interface activate if that was the case? It activates on every other omni-tool related task, like scanning mods and technology, using ammo powers etc.

 

Edit: There is also this

Spoiler

[katamuro]

Well I didnt say it was the total truth and nothing but the truth, just pointed out that something like that could be done. and that image is just another example of a bit of a  technical screw up that they seem to be so fond of.

[MrFob]

Well Vazgen, that was kinda my point. As I said, the QWERTY keyboards annoy me, not the omni-tool, which apparently has a different (if unexplained) interface.

 

I also don't mind the two fingers to the ear, a gesture which they only do sometimes,m meaning it is not really necessary. I am not sure if it explained exactly what their communicators are but I assume it may be small wireless earpiece or something like that. If I have my own cell phone on an earpiece, I sometimes press it in a little to block out ambient sound. Helps me to make out what the other person is saying. I always thought they are doing the same.

[Vazgen]

Well Vazgen, that was kinda my point. As I said, the QWERTY keyboards annoy me, not the omni-tool, which apparently has a different (if unexplained) interface.

 

I also don't mind the two fingers to the ear, a gesture which they only do sometimes,m meaning it is not really necessary. I am not sure if it explained exactly what their communicators are but I assume it may be small wireless earpiece or something like that. If I have my own cell phone on an earpiece, I sometimes press it in a little to block out ambient sound. Helps me to make out what the other person is saying. I always thought they are doing the same.

The problem with two fingers animation is that there are three animations for communication

This

Spoiler

this

Spoiler

and this

Spoiler

What's the reason to use one over another?

[Linkenski]

Actually, I don't mind a few clipping errors that much. It would be nicer if they wouldn't occur but I can live with the fact that in 1 out of 50 animations, the helmet clips a little.

 

I think where the ME team really needs to start paying attention to the details is plot and writing. That's where most of the "clipping" occurred in the past IMO. If you are going to start out with one background story for something, stick with it, don't change things mid-gmae (or trilogy as it were). Nicer graphics and and stuff are good (I also love Dead Space's environmental UI btw) but getting the details right in the story is absolutely critical IMO.

 

Oh, btw, whie I can agree with most of your details (we had the helmet discussion a couple of times already I believe and I'd also love telescoping helmets in ME), one word on the omni-tools, I don't mind there "non-existent" interface at all. In fact, i was more bothered by the silly holographic QWERTY keyboards that kept popping up everywhere, starting in ME2 and are really everywhere (even workstations of aliens on the Citadel!!!) in ME3. Did we really convert everyone to QWERTY? In a world, where you have perfect speech recognition, gesture recognition and even neural interfaces and bio-electric feedback controls, would you really expect everyone to still rely on a 250 year old interface? Even today, with modern touch screens, etc., we are moving further and further away from classic keyboard controls, so have a little more imagination here.

So true. I really started to be annoyed by this in my last run through ME3, especially when EDI has to hack something or at TIM's base... like, of all people, why can't EDI just directly interface with something? See what Dr. Eva Core did on Mars? She friggin slams her fist down into a keyboard and downloads the data instantly. Why can't EDI just do that? xD

[Vazgen]

So true. I really started to be annoyed by this in my last run through ME3, especially when EDI has to hack something or at TIM's base... like, of all people, why can't EDI just directly interface with something? See what Dr. Eva Core did on Mars? She friggin slams her fist down into a keyboard and downloads the data instantly. Why can't EDI just do that? xD

Why does she even have to come? She managed to deal with Collector Ship security remotely and it was unfamiliar technology.

[Linkenski]

Why does she even have to come? She managed to deal with Collector Ship security remotely and it was unfamiliar technology.

I hated all the forced character selections. I mean, what's the point? In ME1 I could choose to make Liara stay to shield her from having to see her mother being killed and in ME3 I should've been able to tell her to stay to not see how bad it was on Thessia, even if that would be a bad thing to do morally.

 

And as for EDI I always got the feeling that it was just to make another forced character selection just to let EDI shine. Player choice is so often discarded in ME3 when it should matter.

 

In general I thought EDI was poorly handled and gullibly written in ME3. Dragging her to Cerberus HQ just so we could compliment her for her door-unlocking skills, as if we have any clue about how bypassing ever worked in the first place (ATTENTION TO DETAIL!). And on the note of Cerberus HQ... why is everyone conveniently turning their back to where Kai Leng lies defeated? Squadmates (including EDI!!!) just looks out of the mirror and Shepard sits down in front of the computer terminal and starts typing as Kai Leng sneaks up on him... conveniently... Why? What is he typing?--ATTENTION TO DETAIL!

 

Then there are all the times when Shepard tries teaching her but doesn't know how to level with someone who doesn't have emotions, like "Are you afraid? x2" or "you gotta have chemistry". It's super forced and makes Shepard look dumb. The worst offender though is when the crew sometimes become ignorant of the fact that EDI is not the robot body but the AI core on the Normandy, including the Synthesis ending, and pretty much all Extended Cut material.

(hint: some of the writers obviously didn't even know this themselves) --ATTENTION TO DETAIL!

 

And on the subject of EDI... what's up with her voice direction? I get that she's unshackled but they made Tricia Helfer sound like she was "alive" too soon, even before she got the robot body, and it makes her monologue in synthesis less impactful because she sounds just as "alive" as she used to. I really missed that soothing expository voice she had in ME2 most of the time.

ATTENTION TO DE--whatever!

 

TL;DR: I'd argue EDI is another big example of Bioware's lack of attention to detail.

[MrFob]

@ communication animations: When I make a cell phone call today, I can either take out my phone and hold it to my ear, I can attach a headset, I can put it on speaker or I can even make a facetime/skype call and video-chat. All of these have different "animations" and people use all of them. Why should communication in the 22nd century be any less versatile?

 

I am with you guys 100% as far as EDI is concerned btw. She was a way more unique and interesting character in ME2 IMO, when the ship was "her body". Ok, technically, it still is but they had to slap yet another Pinocchio story line on her. So much wasted potential. Sorry, this is kinda off topic but I get annoyed by it every time it comes up.

 

EDIT: Just realized I forgot to answer to the writing thing: Just to be clear, I am not saying that BW's writing in the ME trilogy is bad per se. On the contrary, some of it is spectacular. But they do not care about getting the details right anymore with their writing. This can be seen by many inconsistencies the number of which dramatically increased over the course of the series. Most of them are small, yet they do pile up and there are even a few very big ones (Cerberus to just name one example). The ME writing team has basically perfected character moments and small contained stories. If they could pay more attention to detail in what they write and how they tie their stories together, it could be phenomenal. That's why I really hope they will pay more attention in the writing department in the future.

[katamuro]

I dont get why people get so upset about EDI, sure they could have handled it better but by far that is better than their handling of a lot of other issues. And what about geth? They were pretty much the most original alien species so far, their kinda AI thing was brilliant, especially their desire to just do their own thing without reapers. So why the hell they were all turned into a singular type of AI with reaper upgrades? 

[Vazgen]

@ communication animations: When I make a cell phone call today, I can either take out my phone and hold it to my ear, I can attach a headset, I can put it on speaker or I can even make a facetime/skype call and video-chat. All of these have different "animations" and people use all of them. Why should communication in the 22nd century be any less versatile?

 

I am with you guys 100% as far as EDI is concerned btw. She was a way more unique and interesting character in ME2 IMO, when the ship was "her body". Ok, technically, it still is but they had to slap yet another Pinocchio story line on her. So much wasted potential. Sorry, this is kinda off topic but I get annoyed by it every time it comes up.

 

EDIT: Just realized I forgot to answer to the writing thing: Just to be clear, I am not saying that BW's writing in the ME trilogy is bad per se. On the contrary, some of it is spectacular. But they do not care about getting the details right anymore with their writing. This can be seen by many inconsistencies the number of which dramatically increased over the course of the series. Most of them are small, yet they do pile up and there are even a few very big ones (Cerberus to just name one example). The ME writing team has basically perfected character moments and small contained stories. If they could pay more attention to detail in what they write and how they tie their stories together, it could be phenomenal. That's why I really hope they will pay more attention in the writing department in the future.

They all serve different functions though. Take Grissom Academy, for example. When Cerberus contacts students via their omni-tools Shepard holds two fingers to an ear. He does not move them even when the "caller" is changed. The whole scene has a bunch of those "issues". Here is a link, watch until Shepard leaves the area for the combat section. You'll see omni-tool operation up close, Shepard's two finger listening animation when nobody else requires that etc.

 

I dont get why people get so upset about EDI, sure they could have handled it better but by far that is better than their handling of a lot of other issues. And what about geth? They were pretty much the most original alien species so far, their kinda AI thing was brilliant, especially their desire to just do their own thing without reapers. So why the hell they were all turned into a singular type of AI with reaper upgrades? 

I never liked any of them. But I did like EDI much more in ME2. I liked the geth the most in ME1

[wolfhowwl]

The only Mass Effect game that felt polished was ME2.

 

ME3 was janky and shoddy in places. ME1 stands out as the worst and felt like it was years away from being released.

 

Hopefully they will do better next time.

[MrFob]

Come on Vazgen, as I said, different people different phone habits. Even one single person can use their phone in different ways. What is so unusual about that?

 

@katamuro: IMO that geth and EDI both suffer from the same writing problem in ME3, they both get the "I want to be like humans/organics" arc, that is the single most used scifi trope for AIs, next to "I defeat you with your own logic". Both, the Geth and EDI were interesting in ME2 because they were fairly unique in their respective way. Most importantly, they were AIs that were actually ok with being AIs. Finally a scifi franchise was portraying AIs as a life form in it's own right, rather than something that was just lacking in development, incomplete until they were just like us. That got erased for both parties in ME3 and I don't like it for either of them. The signature sentence for EDI in that regard is "finally, I feel alive". Just count how often she says it during the game, it's ridiculous. But as I said, off topic, so I suggest we either move or shelve this discussion.

[Vazgen]

Come on Vazgen, as I said, different people different phone habits. Even one single person can use their phone in different ways. What is so unusual about that?

What I'm getting at is that in similar situations same animation should be used. Like, two fingers for talking in combat (calling for reinforcements while being pinned down, for example), omni-knuckle for broadcasting orders to a large number of units, omni-tool with visual feedback should not be used at all (battlefield is not a place for Skype calls), unless the feedback is in form of schematics or something that can only be shown (Wreav's/Wrex's face is not such a thing). In ME3 they are all mixed up, your character might use one animation in one mission and then switch to another in the same situation. 

[MrFob]

Well, as I said, I don't think it's infeasible to have a couple of different ways to communicate and if Shep and Wrex want to video chat, I am not going to stand between them either.

I mean, you were using Dead Space as the shining example before:

Spoiler

So much for video chats in the middle of hostile environments.

[Vazgen]

Well, as I said, I don't think it's infeasible to have a couple of different ways to communicate and if Shep and Wrex want to video chat, I am not going to stand between them either.

I mean, you were using Dead Space as the shining example before:

Spoiler

So much for video chats in the middle of hostile environments.

I don't remember being attacked during video chat Besides, Dead Space is pretty clear on communication. It's either audio or video communication but both play out the same way, via the in-game UI. I can see the appeal for video conversations, they are more personal than simple audio calls. However, each should have its own place. Priority:Earth final section is not really a place for a video call, especially since you call EDI (which you also do in the same section without video).

[MrFob]

I don't remember being attacked during video chat

Yes, because it's scripted that way. Just like ME is scripted, so that Shep cannot die during the call. We were talking in-universe reasoning before. Given the number of shock attacks Isaac is victim to in DS, there is no reason for him to feel safe enough to concentrate on a skype message at any point in the game. So I don't see the difference. And in both DS and EM, you can get audio and video calls. ME just has one or two more animations for it. Point for ME as far as I am concerned.

[RoboticWater]

Yes, because it's scripted that way. Just like ME is scripted, so that Shep cannot die during the call. We were talking in-universe reasoning before. Given the number of shock attacks Isaac is victim to in DS, there is no reason for him to feel safe enough to concentrate on a skype message at any point in the game. So I don't see the difference. And in both DS and EM, you can get audio and video calls. ME just has one or two more animations for it. Point for ME as far as I am concerned.

My problem with the finger-in-ear communication in ME3 is the same reason you don't like QWERTY keyboards: it's the future. It seems like such a pointless and old fashioned convention that leaves the player in a clumsy and vulnerable position, not to mention the fact that it's an overused trope in TPSs. I'd rather see a single tap on the wrist, chest badge, or omnitool prompt than some awkward continuous pose.

 

I prefer Dead Space's approach because the visual representation actually enhances the game. If you ever watch a movie you'll notice that phone calls are generally made with shots and counter shots (the camera cuts back and forth between the people talking). Obviously, games can't do this because cutting back and forth takes control away from the player, so they lose out on all the expressions and emotional cues from the person on the other end of the line. Pulling in video feeds in game lets the player have the best of both worlds. Also, the video feed disappears every time you zoom in  with your weapon, so Isaac has every chance to act paranoid during a conference call.

 

And that's just the communication interface. Dead Space is so revolutionary with its HUD because it integrates everything the player needs to know right into Isaac's suit. I don't expect MENext to go that far, but things like the map and inventory could fit cleanly into the omnitool interface without too much hassle.

 

I actually disagree about your keyboard point though. While technology changes drastically, input generally stays the same. Keyboards have been around for longer than a century and I doubt they'll be going away very soon. We might be losing the traditional clicks and clacks of keyboards to touchscreens and swype, but the core of the keyboard remains the same. That's because buttons are non intrusive, subtle, and simply work. Unless you want people flapping their hands around every time they send a text or stopping conversations to state a command, I'd say keep the keyboard around.

[Linkenski]

The only Mass Effect game that felt polished was ME2.

 

ME3 was janky and shoddy in places. ME1 stands out as the worst and felt like it was years away from being released.

 

Hopefully they will do better next time.

Hmm, it's actually funny you mention this because it's totally true and you can tell content was cut from ME1 as well. Did you know the combat-only planet of Therum where you rescure Liara originally had an entire hub-area like on Feros or Noveria too? It was cut.

 

But I think the fact that ME1 was obviously rushed is a testament to the fact that a rushed game isn't necessarily bad because it's not anything new with Bioware games and a lot of people much prefer ME1 for being the most ballsy sci-fi RPG/Action game and not a gears of war clone in the Mass Effect setting. Makes me think ME3's endgame was kinda meh because of design and not resource-constraints.

[Vazgen]

Let's not bring endgame debates to this thread (hopefully it's still possible on BSN). Each of the games has a lot of cut content, it's the way game development is done. And "rushed" is quite a broad assessment. Being rushed by two weeks is different from rushed by, say, three months.

ME1 also didn't have EA pushing the release date (or, at least, not to the same amount as in the case of ME3). Announcement of Bioware being bought by EA came on October 11 2007. ME1 was released on November 16 2007. The scopes of the games are also not comparable. ME3 is way bigger in scope than ME1, if only because it had to account the decisions made in two prior games. Add to that limited development time, budget and console limitations.

[MrFob]

@RoboticWater: You make a number of good points but I think my argument got misunderstood a little:

1. I am not saying that I find the "finger in the ear" animation super cool. I am just saying I don't mind it and I don't think it is immersion breaking (to me). I certainly don't think it's a negative that they have several ways to initiate and maintain communication either. I also wouldn't mind much if they did get rid of the fingers on ear animation in the future. It may just have been a quirk of Shep and a few others maybe. All I am saying is that I don't think it counts as something that is technically wrong, just a matter of taste.

 

2. Same goes with the QWERTY keyboards. They do annoy me and I find it implausible that they would be around in the time of ME but apparently they are, I can live with that. The only instance where I really think they are inappropriate is when we see them in alien environments (for example, IIRC, there was one on the quarian ship during Tali's loyalty mission in ME2, why the heck would the quarians use QWERY keyboards? Are they that effective that we converted everyone? I mean, not even all the nations on earth use the same layout, so weird).

I realize that input devices remain a long time because it's difficult to learn a new one but even today we are going away from the classical keyboards more and more, towards more context sensitive controls on touch screens. Holograms that are freely configurable and that have sophisticated VIs running them, that I can see that trend continue.

Also note: my argument was based on the fact that I think Omnitools are ok without QWERTY's not on the premise that I think all QWERTY's in ME have to vanish (although I wouldn't mind that either).

 

3. Just like Vazgen, I love Dead Space's UI, I think it is one of the most immersive UIs of all time. However, I don't think every game has to go there. Same goes for video calls and such. I totally get your point about the cinematic aspects of video conversations and I wouldn't mind at all if the next ME had more of them. In fact, I argued against ditching video conversations in the first place. My argument was that multiple forms of communications are ok with me and if characters want to touch their ear while they talk, I am ok with that, too. But apparently my leaniancy on the point has sparked quite the controversy (maybe because I was not clear enough in my writing).

[Iakus]

EDIT: Just realized I forgot to answer to the writing thing: Just to be clear, I am not saying that BW's writing in the ME trilogy is bad per se. On the contrary, some of it is spectacular. But they do not care about getting the details right anymore with their writing. This can be seen by many inconsistencies the number of which dramatically increased over the course of the series. Most of them are small, yet they do pile up and there are even a few very big ones (Cerberus to just name one example). The ME writing team has basically perfected character moments and small contained stories. If they could pay more attention to detail in what they write and how they tie their stories together, it could be phenomenal. That's why I really hope they will pay more attention in the writing department in the future.

I guess it just shows that those high school guidance councilors are right: talent only takes you so far.