328 réponses à ce sujet

[FadelessRipley]

Dorian is surprisingly well done IMO. I was a bit iffy that his personal quest was explicitly about his sexuality at first, but it was well written and extremely relatable. Sera is a difficult character to get to like, and I know some people are annoyed that such a polarising character was picked to be the first lesbian in the games. Personally I don't mind - I think difficult characters or ones where their redeemable qualities aren't as easily identifiable are good to have, too.

I think the only slight problem in BioWare's games is regarding bisexuality, however as I'm not bi I don't feel qualified to comment too much. I feel Leliana and Isabela were portrayed best in that regard. Others seemed off in places. There's no doubt that BioWare are head and shoulders above any other company in their efforts, and deserve recognition. Doesn't mean we can't critically evaluate the games in other ways of course. But like Dave, I'll always be loyal to them by picking up their games. The fact I think they're good games helps too.

[daveliam]

Dorian is surprisingly well done IMO. I was a bit iffy that his personal quest was explicitly about his sexuality at first, but it was well written and extremely relatable. Sera is a difficult character to get to like, and I know some people are annoyed that such a polarising character was picked to be the first lesbian in the games. Personally I don't mind - I think difficult characters or ones where their redeemable qualities aren't as easily identifiable are good to have, too.

I think the only slight problem in BioWare's games is regarding bisexuality, however as I'm not bi I don't feel qualified to comment too much. I feel Leliana and Isabela were portrayed best in that regard. Others seemed off in places. There's no doubt that BioWare are head and shoulders above any other company in their efforts, and deserve recognition. Doesn't mean we can't critically evaluate the games in other ways of course. But like Dave, I'll always be loyal to them by picking up their games. The fact I think they're good games helps too.

 

Agreed.  I just don't think that Dorian's personal quest was about his sexuality.  I think his sexuality played a role in it, but it was a bit more complicated that "Dad doesn't like that I'm gay".  Otherwise, I'm in total agreement!

[Jaison1986]

One thing I can respect BW for is that they makes these characters average people and the game doesn't dwell too much on their circumstances. Krem is portrayed as some average fellow that can even die in action. Wereas if he was written by some viper from tumblr, Krem would be some special snow flake that would be made perfect in every single aspect and they would put extra effort to rub that in our faces. I don't mind inclusivity. Everyone wants their space. I just don't like it when people try to turn inclusivity into catering and special treatment.

[FadelessRipley]

Agreed.  I just don't think that Dorian's personal quest was about his sexuality.  I think his sexuality played a role in it, but it was a bit more complicated that "Dad doesn't like that I'm gay".  Otherwise, I'm in total agreement!

You're right - I really should have said that it explicitly FEATURED his sexuality. don't get me wrong, I found it immensely relatable (despite the privilege of having had very accepting parents myself). I just felt it was very risky once I realised the direction it was going. However, I was pleasantly surprised. I found the blood magic ritual part particularly touching, or perhaps touch-y. Wasted much of my teens on its real life equivalent myself. :eyeroll:

[Colonelkillabee]

The OP's point is they're daring enough to delve into more controversial relationships (homosexual, inter-species), and in this game even had a transgender character in Krem.

Lol which is relevant to the real world in what way, considering "races" are just human variation and there's no species amongst humans. Just humans.. I do get that it's translated to interracial, but really it wasn't much of a big deal at all to have humans and elves, humans and Qunari, etc, because they're not real. Real interracial relationships in a game have already been done, surprisingly without anyone batting an eyelash, which I'm happy about.

 

Anyway, even despite that, I liked the days when people loved a game just because it was fun, lol, not because it brought up social justice issues.

 

But that's just me. Carry on.

[FadelessRipley]

One thing I can respect BW for is that they makes these characters average people and the game doesn't dwell too much on their circumstances. Krem is portrayed as some average fellow that can even die in action. Wereas if he was written by some viper from tumblr, Krem would be some special snow flake that would be made perfect in every single aspect and they would put extra effort to rub that in our faces. I don't mind inclusivity. Everyone wants their space. I just don't like it when people try to turn inclusivity into catering and special treatment.

Good point. Making a character LGBT for the sake of it, or writing such characters to be perfect, is actually a disservice. Not to mention sodding boring!

[congokong]

How is this relevant?

It's relevant because slipping in a game's text that a woman likes big breasts is far inferior to a game that gives a developed lesbian relationship. The same applies to transgenders. Nintendo playfully mentioning in Birdo's first appearance that he thinks he's a "she" is leaps back from Bioware's development of Krem.

[FadelessRipley]

 
Anyway, even despite that, I liked the days when people loved a game just because it was fun, lol, not because it brought up social justice issues.
 
But that's just me. Carry on.

We do - but a bit of representation makes it more fun, especially when RPing. A crap game or character isn't made enjoyable because it represents whatever minority. I'm more for "character-who-happens-to-be-gay" myself. Hence why Dorian worried me, but I feel they pulled it off. The fact BioWare makes engaging, likeable characters who are also gay, bi, whatever is why I respect them.

[congokong]

Anyway, even despite that, I liked the days when people loved a game just because it was fun, lol, not because it brought up social justice issues.

 

But that's just me. Carry on.

The implementation of homosexual relationships and transgender characters has very little sway over my enjoyment of Bioware's games. I just agree with the OP that Bioware being bold enough to venture into debated taboo areas is respectable.

[Colonelkillabee]

We do - but a bit of representation makes it more fun, especially when RPing. A crap game or character isn't made enjoyable because it represents whatever minority. I'm more for "character-who-happens-to-be-gay" myself. Hence why Dorian worried me, but I feel they pulled it off. The fact BioWare makes engaging, likeable characters who are also gay, bi, whatever is why I respect them.

Meh, I get that. I just find it counter productive to what you want to keep making this out to be special. To single it out makes it odd when what you are trying to do is make good characters, some of which happen to be gay, bi, or trans... normal.

 

They make good characters in general. It's only natural that their characters are varied. Which translates to it simply being a good game series.

[daveliam]

It's relevant because slipping in a game's text that a woman likes big breasts is far inferior to a game that gives a developed lesbian relationship. The same applies to transgenders. Nintendo playfully mentioning in Birdo's first appearance that he thinks he's a "she" is leaps back from Bioware's development of Krem.

 

This is another great 'historic' LGBT moment in gaming.  For those who don't know, in the original Mario Bros 2 (US) booklet, it listed Birdo as being a he who thinks he's a she.  Eventually, this got retconned away and Birdo's just a girl now. 

 

We do - but a bit of representation makes it more fun, especially when RPing. A crap game or character isn't made enjoyable because it represents whatever minority. I'm more for "character-who-happens-to-be-gay" myself. Hence why Dorian worried me, but I feel they pulled it off. The fact BioWare makes engaging, likeable characters who are also gay, bi, whatever is why I respect them.

 

I'm not going to lie:  If I have a choice between a crap game with LGBT characters and a crap game without LGBT characters, I will pick the former every time and it will probably make me appreciate it a little more.  It won't make the game good, per se, but it will make it somewhat more enjoyable for me.  That being said, I'll also take a great game without LGBT characters over a crap game with them (well, I'll probably take both, but I'll enjoy the former more). 

[Colonelkillabee]

Lol I just wouldn't play either crap game tbh

[o Ventus]

It's relevant because slipping in a game's text that a woman likes big breasts is far inferior to a game that gives a developed lesbian relationship. The same applies to transgenders. Nintendo playfully mentioning in Birdo's first appearance that he thinks he's a "she" is leaps back from Bioware's development of Krem.

It's not just "slipping a game's text", she actively flirts with almost every other female fighter in the game and has obviously suggestive dialogue. She flirts with Chun-Li and Cammy before fighting them.

[FadelessRipley]

Meh, I get that. I just find it counter productive to what you want to keep making this out to be special. To single it out makes it odd when what you are trying to do is make good characters, some of which happen to be gay, bi, or trans... normal.

They make good characters in general. It's only natural that their characters are varied. Which translates to it simply being a good game series.

It's not special, maybe, but still unique enough. In the sense they bother to do it at all, and put real effort in. Not all in the gamer community are as open minded as you, good poster. I usually stay away from such discussions as they've been done to death, and tbh my own "side" can p**s me off just as much. I do think the company deserves a little thanks every so often, given the (thankfully lessening) backlash that remains.

[FadelessRipley]

It's not just "slipping a game's text", she actively flirts with almost every other female fighter in the game and has obviously suggestive dialogue. She flirts with Chun-Li and Cammy before fighting them.

Well yes, but would you actually put that on par with being able to RP an engaging, fleshed out romance story with a three dimensional (personality wise) character...?

[congokong]

Dorian is surprisingly well done IMO. I was a bit iffy that his personal quest was explicitly about his sexuality at first, but it was well written and extremely relatable. Sera is a difficult character to get to like, and I know some people are annoyed that such a polarising character was picked to be the first lesbian in the games. Personally I don't mind - I think difficult characters or ones where their redeemable qualities aren't as easily identifiable are good to have, too.

I think the only slight problem in BioWare's games is regarding bisexuality, however as I'm not bi I don't feel qualified to comment too much. I feel Leliana and Isabela were portrayed best in that regard. Others seemed off in places. There's no doubt that BioWare are head and shoulders above any other company in their efforts, and deserve recognition. Doesn't mean we can't critically evaluate the games in other ways of course. But like Dave, I'll always be loyal to them by picking up their games. The fact I think they're good games helps too.

Agreed. I liked that Dorian isn't known to me as "the gay character." Him being homosexual is just one part of him.
 I also agree that the bisexuality comes on a little thick. There are some characters I just don't see as bisexual; both by their dialogue and their demeanor. Ex: Fenris, Merrill, Josephine   Some would argue that the more options there are the better, yet in real life not everyone's attracted to everyone and I feel that should be implemented. I liked that Cullen for example was rather specific on potential romantic partners. It's realism.

[congokong]

It's not just "slipping a game's text", she actively flirts with almost every other female fighter in the game and has obviously suggestive dialogue. She flirts with Chun-Li and Cammy before fighting them.

I wasn't aware of that. I'm only citing what you used in your example. I've never played that game. The point still stands though that having characters develop actual homosexual relationships is a step forward out of taboo territory.

[o Ventus]

Well yes, but would you actually put that on par with being able to RP an engaging, fleshed out romance story with a three dimensional (personality wise) character...?

 

Why people are trying to totally change what I'm trying to get at by asking me to compare a Capcom fighting game to a Bioware RPG are beyond me.

 

The point I was making is that having gay or lesbian characters isn't exactly a revolutionary art, so treating it like it is doesn't ring to me as totally necessary.

[Colonelkillabee]

It's not special, maybe, but still unique enough. In the sense they bother to do it at all, and put real effort in. Not all in the gamer community are as open minded as you, good poster. I usually stay away from such discussions as they've been done to death, and tbh my own "side" can p**s me off just as much. I do think the company deserves a little thanks every so often, given the (thankfully lessening) backlash that remains.

Perhaps. I just look at it like how when my family praises things for having black people in it or something (I'm biracial). I know a lot of people don't like a game just for inclusion, but at the same time a lot of people do, just like as you say, not everyone's as "open minded" as I. (Some people here might roll their eyes at your statement for that )

 

Anyway, I roll my eyes or shake my head at threads like this because of how I see people act with race. I get it's nice to feel included but it's just unimportant, or it should be. That said, when one is well made, that much I can understand praise for, like Lee and Clementine in the Walking Dead. So at least the OP said as much, I'll give them that. And the others in the thread who said the same and it not just being about the inclusion alone.

 

Even so, I don't usually bring attention to it and just praise their characters for being good. It helps invite normalcy when you don't even talk about their race, or sexuality, etc. Like Dorian, who I really do like a lot. Being gay is barely what he's about, even if he's obviously gay from his mannerisms. Eventually gays will get to this point as well. And then after that, transgenders. Till then, I feel obligated to roll my eyes honestly when people do this.

[congokong]

This is another great 'historic' LGBT moment in gaming.  For those who don't know, in the original Mario Bros 2 (US) booklet, it listed Birdo as being a he who thinks he's a she.  Eventually, this got retconned away and Birdo's just a girl now.

Yup, you're well-versed in my example; including the retcon which I was also aware of. That's a nice step backwards for the sake of Nintendo's "family-friendly" image.

[FadelessRipley]

Agreed. I liked that Dorian isn't known to me as "the gay character." Him being homosexual is just one part of him.
 I also agree that the bisexuality comes on a little thick. There are some characters I just don't see as bi-sexual; both by their dialogue and their demeanor. Ex: Fenris, Merrill, Josephine   Some would argue that the more options there are the better, yet in real life not every attracted to everyone and I feel that should be implemented. I liked that Cullen for example was rather specific on potential romantic partners. It's realism.

Fenris definitely. Anders always struck me as gay, despite his Awakening comments. Merrill and Josephine are slightly more plausible. By "demeanour", well I mean naive and innocent people can be gay or bi, too. Merrill is hot for Qunari blokes though, we know. Don't remember any particular contradictory dialogue for either. I romanced Josephine, and have to admit it was kind of fun doing this textbook traditional soppy romance story as a female PC.
Conversely, I've always felt Morrigan, Alistair and Cassandra come across as definitely straight, and I'm baffled by mods to change them. The reaction to such mods for Dorian and Sera is a bit hypocritical in that sense. Though Cassandra did break my gay little heart.

I've seen people going postal that Cullen is racist. :s I agree, it's more realistic and simply a preference.

[congokong]

Why people are trying to totally change what I'm trying to get at by asking me to compare a Capcom fighting game to a Bioware RPG are beyond me.

 

The point I was making is that having gay or lesbian characters isn't exactly a revolutionary art, so treating it like it is doesn't ring to me as totally necessary.

Now you're the one totally changing things. Who said "revolutionary art" when referring to Bioware before you? The OP is appreciating (note the title) how far Bioware has taken the homosexual dynamic.

[FadelessRipley]

Why people are trying to totally change what I'm trying to get at by asking me to compare a Capcom fighting game to a Bioware RPG are beyond me.

The point I was making is that having gay or lesbian characters isn't exactly a revolutionary art, so treating it like it is doesn't ring to me as totally necessary.

I'm not trying to have a go at you, sorry if it looked that way. You're right - LGBT characters existing in games has a long history. The point myself and others are making is that realistic, believable and relatable ones do not make up the bulk of those examples. See daveliam's excellent post further back. Also, RPGs obviously offer a more immersive experience than other types of games.

Simply HAVING LGBT characters isn't why BioWare deserves recognition, it's how they handle them.

[congokong]

Fenris definitely. Anders always struck me as gay, despite his Awakening comments. Merrill and Josephine are slightly more plausible. By "demeanour", well I mean naive and innocent people can be gay or bi, too. Merrill is hot for Qunari blokes though, we know. Don't remember any particular contradictory dialogue for either. I romanced Josephine, and have to admit it was kind of fun doing this textbook traditional soppy romance story as a female PC.
Conversely, I've always felt Morrigan, Alistair and Cassandra come across as definitely straight, and I'm baffled by mods to change them. The reaction to such mods for Dorian and Sera is a bit hypocritical in that sense. Though Cassandra did break my gay little heart.

I've seen people going postal that Cullen is racist. :s I agree, it's more realistic and simply a preference.

I was largely referring to dialogue that relates to sexual preferences. Merrill shows fondness for qunari men, an example I was thinking of actually, yet I can't recall anything suggesting lesbian tendencies outside of the romance. Anders... Certainly can see him as bi. But Josephine and Fenris? I just don't see Fenris as bi, and Josephine is so traditional that I cannot picture her in a scandalous homosexual relationship that holds no prospect of children, inheritance, etc. She also has no homosexual dialogue outside a relationship, yet shows interests in men (Ex: Blackwall, and Iron Bull and Cullen naked).