328 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

But the differences aren't so big that they limit you in everything you do.

How does this go along for you with being a man, being a "big" part of who you are?

[Colonelkillabee]

How does this go along for you with being a man, being a "big" part of who you are?

Because the differences are still there, and because I choose to embrace the typical male role in society that we consider masculine.

[daveliam]

Because the differences are still there, and because I choose to embrace the typical male role in society that we consider masculine.

 

But didn't you just get done telling everyone how no one should make a big deal about who they are?  Am I misunderstanding?  It's okay to 'embrace' your gender, but it's not okay to 'embrace' your sexuality, because then that's shoving it people's faces? 

[Colonelkillabee]

But didn't you just get done telling everyone how no one should make a big deal about who they are?  Am I misunderstanding?  It's okay to 'embrace' your gender, but it's not okay to 'embrace' your sexuality, because then that's shoving it people's faces? 

No I didn't say that at all. I said you shouldn't make a big deal over characters being gay in a videogame. Or black, or whatever.

[KainD]

Because the differences are still there, and because I choose to embrace the typical male role in society that we consider masculine.

It seems like you contradict yourself. If you are free to choose whatever, then there is no real difference that would have an impact. If its a choice then you can make that choice regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, thus it shouldn't be a big part of what you are.

Btw I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong, just interested in how your reasoning works.

[daveliam]

No I didn't say that at all. I said you shouldn't make a big deal over characters being gay in a videogame. Or black, or whatever.

 

Why?  I'm just 'embracing' my sexuality and appreciating characters that are also gay.  I'm not seeing a difference.

[KainD]

Why? I'm just 'embracing' my sexuality and appreciating characters that are also gay. I'm not seeing a difference.

And also by that logic black people are embracing their race, because its a big part of who they are as well, because the difference is there.

[daveliam]

And also by that logic black people are embracing their race, because its a big part of who they are as well, because the difference is there.

 

Right.  That's what I'm not understanding.  It seems as if one takes a 'race and sexuality isn't a big deal' approach, one would also take a 'gender isn't a big deal approach' as well. 

[Colonelkillabee]

 

 

Why?  I'm just 'embracing' my sexuality and appreciating characters that are also gay.  I'm not seeing a difference.

Why do you seem to need characters to reflect things about you? Why is it about you?

 

The difference is you're pointing out specifically their gayness for being a reason that they deserve thanking and appreciation. Yes you mentioned that they're good characters, but you made it clear it's that they're good AND gay, which just serves to make them anything but normal. You're helping them to remain abnormal.

 

 

It seems like you contradict yourself. If you are free to choose whatever, then there is no real difference that would have an impact. If its a choice then you can make that choice regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, thus it shouldn't be a big part of what you are.

Btw I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong, just interested in how your reasoning works.

I haven't contradicted myself. I said that it isn't enough to limit you completely. There's a reason men for instance make up most of the physical workforce.

 

It doesn't mean a woman can't pick up a hammer and lead a life of hardship if she chooses, but generally they won't. Men are better suited for it.

 

[KaiserShep]

No I didn't say that at all. I said you shouldn't make a big deal over characters being gay in a videogame. Or black, or whatever.

 

It seems to me that part of the reason why people tend to celebrate this sort of thing is that institutionalized racism and other various forms of discrimination still permeate throughout society. When that goes away, then people will probably stop caring to make a big deal about it.

[Colonelkillabee]

Right.  That's what I'm not understanding.  It seems as if one takes a 'race and sexuality isn't a big deal' approach, one would also take a 'gender isn't a big deal approach' as well. 

 

I'm not thanking gaming companies for making games masculine, am I? There's a difference with how you embrace things personally and openly. I don't run around talking about how much I love being a manly man, not unless I'm joking and it's tongue in cheek.

[daveliam]

It seems to me that part of the reason why people tend to celebrate this sort of thing is that institutionalized racism and other various forms of discrimination still permeate throughout society. When that goes away, then people will probably stop caring to make a big deal about it.

EXACTLY!  I.O.U. one 'like'.  This is exactly the situation here.

[KainD]

It doesn't mean a woman can't pick up a hammer and lead a life of hardship if she chooses, but generally they won't. Men are better suited for it.

Generally its society nurture. Also false, there are women that are genetically stronger than an average man.

[Colonelkillabee]

It seems to me that part of the reason why people tend to celebrate this sort of thing is that institutionalized racism and other various forms of discrimination still permeate throughout society. When that goes away, then people will probably stop caring to make a big deal about it.

Yes it's a reactionary thing, but it's an unnecessary one, especially in this day and age. I'm not gonna make you see my way of thinking by talking about how much I like this black character because they're black, but also a good character. I did mention this about Lee before, but to make a thread about it and specifically single out race, gender, sexuality, that is my problem. Not people taking personal pride in whatever.

[Colonelkillabee]

Generally its society nurture. Also false, there are women that are genetically stronger than an average man.

That would be an exception, not the rule. Generally, men are physically stronger than women.

[daveliam]

Yes it's a reactionary thing, but it's an unnecessary one, especially in this day and age. I'm not gonna make you see my way of thinking by talking about how much I like this black character because they're black, but also a good character. I did mention this about Lee before, but to make a thread about it and specifically single out race, gender, sexuality, that is my problem. Not people taking personal pride in whatever.

 

If it bothers you so much, don't read and post in the threads.  It's really simple.  You've made your point and people disagree with you.  Continuing to tell other people to stop appreciating what they appreciate isn't doing anything but cause further disagreements.  There are a ton of things that I don't care about and/or don't agree with on the forums.  I tend to avoid those threads because it's not my place to tell other people what they should and shouldn't appreciate.

[KaiserShep]

Yes it's a reactionary thing, but it's an unnecessary one, especially in this day and age. I'm not gonna make you see my way of thinking by talking about how much I like this black character because they're black, but also a good character. I did mention this about Lee before, but to make a thread about it and specifically single out race, gender, sexuality, that is my problem. Not people taking personal pride in whatever.

 

Well, that kind of depends on one's perspective, and of course, where you live. In this day and age, there are roughly 80 countries that still have anti-homosexual laws in effect.

[Colonelkillabee]

If it bothers you so much, don't read and post in the threads.  It's really simple.

This isn't a rebuttal or a counterpoint. Why should I leave the discussion when I have something to say about it? By that same token, you can ignore what I'm saying completely and move on with your thanking and celebrating if you so choose. I'm not angered by the topic, I'm not flaming, I'm hurting no one.

[KainD]

That would be an exception, not the rule. Generally, men are physically stronger than women.

Exceptions brake rules. If there was a possibility of objects repulsing each other as opposed to attracting, there would be no gravity rule.

[Colonelkillabee]

Well, that kind of depends on one's perspective, and of course, where you live. In this day and age, there are roughly 80 countries that still have anti-homosexual laws in effect.

Even so, the point remains.

[daveliam]

Well, that kind of depends on one's perspective, and of course, where you live. In this day and age, there are roughly 80 countries that still have anti-homosexual laws in effect.

 

Including the U.S., which still has anti-gay marriage laws and anti-gay workplace discrimination laws in effect in many states. 

Fact:  You can still be fired from your job simply for being gay in many U.S. states. 

 

So, "in this day and age", the problem is far from 'over'.

[Colonelkillabee]

Exceptions brake rules. If there was a possibility of objects repulsing each other as opposed to attracting, there would be no gravity rule.

Humans can't possibly compare to the laws of physics, and this point would only work if I put us out to be so rigidly defined, which I did not.

[Zobert]

The point being that simply assuming that someone isn't bisexual because they haven't explicitly made references to appreciating both sexes doesn't really work.

 

 

Oh Jesus. 

 

First, I was responding to FadeRipley's comments about feeling those characters as gay, straight, and bi in a supportive way because I knew that someone like you would have a comment like the above and the potential to be high for the judge-y-ness kick in.  'll note that you didn't throw down a lecture on her, but we'll let that go because it's not your job to lecture me or anyone else on how we choose to express ourselves here, on the moon, in the train station, at the club or anywhere else because you don't pay my bills and we don't call you "Mom" or "Dad".

 

Second, as a bisexual who has dated a fairly even number of both genders I personally have no problem with any assumptions people make about me because I am not uptight about **** like that.  I believe that most people are good and don't intend to offend others.  People can ask me a question, make a gentle assumption about neutral categories and I don't wet the bed or get angry.  If you choose to then you choose to, don't put your own personal issues with people's language on me.

 

If someone doesn't know I'm bisexual I really don't care.  If someone assumes I'm gay, I don't care.  If they assume I'm straight I don't care because it's like assuming what my natural haircolor is--something that's biological.  It is zero insult to me if an assumption is made that I'm gay/straight/bi/pan/female/male/American, etc. because it is not a comment on my character.  I don't have high expectations of other people nor does anyone owe me any particular behavior besides polite conversation...

 

Speaking of which, we shall return to what is expected of two humans engaging in dialogue and ironically your argument about assumptions includes a hella lot of assumption and inference about what I had to say.

 

I am speaking of a 2D written character where you don't have more than 3-4 options of dialogue in any given scene and maybe an hour+ worth of overall dialogue, therefore the onus is on the writers to make you understand their character.  The precedence has been set in previous games regarding how the writers show/tell you about the orientation of the character. 

[Draining Dragon]

Oh my, what a unique and original discussion! We've never had this conversation before!

[Colonelkillabee]

So, "in this day and age", the problem is far from 'over'.

And I never said it was. This wasn't about changing laws, the laws don't always reflect how society is, or America would have no racism. One look at Ferguson Missouri will show you this isn't the case.

 

My point is this is detrimental to your mission of changing society's view. The laws are a different matter, even if related.