Laws mean nothing to me because they can't ever be fully enforced. Even in states where there are anti-discrimination laws you can't prove it. We have environmental laws coming out the ass and people still pollute because they have a team of lawyers that ensure they won't pay a dime for a decade and settle it out of court.
People need to have direct action because the law is only as good as the attorneys on the case.
This isn't a rebuttal or a counterpoint. Why should I leave the discussion when I have something to say about it? By that same token, you can ignore what I'm saying completely and move on with your thanking and celebrating if you so choose. I'm not angered by the topic, I'm not flaming, I'm hurting no one.
Because all I hear from you when you write about these topics is, effectively, "Stop liking what I don't like!"
You speak as if you have some great insights into the socio-political situation that underpins why people appreciate LGBT representation in video games, yet you continue to ignore when people who deal with this stuff every day of their lives tell you that you have a skewed and incomplete view of how things are from that perspective. And instead of taking it as an opportunity to reflect, you continue to argue against it by saying that it's not a big deal and it shouldn't matter. Despite it clearly mattering for many people.
You don't have to leave the conversation, but I don't understand what you intend to accomplish. You've made your point. People disagree with your point. And, frankly, your point has nothing to do with my personal views. If the topic doesn't both you, then why do you continue to, over and over, speak out against it?
Humans can't possibly compare to the laws of physics, and this point would only work if I put us out to be so rigidly defined, which I did not.
Exceptions brake rules. If there was a possibility of objects repulsing each other as opposed to attracting, there would be no gravity rule.
Not in science. Science relies on statistics not exceptions or else we'd all believe that Adam rode a dinosaur to church. There is nothing wrong with saying that women are physically weaker in general than men. We only take exception because we have this patriarchal world view of "might" being "right" and a more preferential characteristic than those that women have adapted.
Why do no men take it as an insult if we say "men can't have kids"? Because society has determined that for some reason having kids is not as cool or great as being able to bludgeon someone to death or shoot them.
We're still buying into this patriarchal idea of what is a preferential trait.
Because all I hear from you when you write about these topics is, effectively, "Stop liking what I don't like!"
You don't have to leave the conversation, but I don't understand what you intend to accomplish. You've made your point. People disagree with your point. And, frankly, your point has nothing to do with my personal views. If the topic doesn't both you, then why do you continue to, over and over, speak out against it?
That's all you want to hear first.
Second, I'll ask you, the op, and everyone else here that same question.
You are saying women and men are inherently different period. That's kinda as rigid as it gets.
Not really. Rigid would be no woman can be a soldier. No woman can play basketball better than a man. That is rigid.
My point is this is detrimental to your mission of changing society's view.
Could you elaborate on that? It just seems to me that not making a big deal about something is the best way to let an idea lose momentum.
You are saying women and men are inherently different period. That's kinda as rigid as it gets.
Individuals have differences. Biological categories are categories because of distinct and innate traits. Humans have two legs, two arms, stand erect, and have ten digits. The fact that some are born without legs does not negate their humanity. That some women are born without fully functioning ovaries does not mean that you cannot state that ovaries are categorically a trait associated with biological females.
We may begin to over time adapt into Rhonda Rousey territory if that becomes preferential as a trait but considering that technology is reducing our need for physical strength I don't see humans going in that direction.
I have a fear we'll all end up looking like gray aliens with huge heads, but luckily I'll be dead by then and my likeness nothing more than a "cave painting".
In what way is celebrating representation of a minority group in entertainment detrimental, and how does one go about changing society's view on the matter?
Again, because you make it abnormal. You want to make society change their views, make them see a character, not a gay character.
That's all you want to hear first.
Second, I'll ask you, the op, and everyone else here that same question.
This makes no sense. We keep talking about it because we feel it's important and it deserves to be appreciated. You claim it's not important and shouldn't matter, yet you continue to argue against people who feel that it is important. If it's not important, then why do you care so much to continue to discuss it. I spend time discussing it because I think it's important. What's your reasoning?
Again, because you make it abnormal. You want to make society change their views, make them see a character, not a gay character.
Does it make Solas 'abnormal' if people are excited to have an elven apostate character? Does it make Cassandra 'abnormal' if people are excited to have a strong female warrior as a LI?
That's all you want to hear first.
Second, I'll ask you, the op, and everyone else here that same question.
Have you ever gone to a foreign country where few people speak English? I speak multiple languages but it's still a mental labor to speak it and not my native tongue. When I finally see someone from the US or UK and can stop speaking Arabic or whatever I want to hug them and start crying because I don't have to work at being something I'm not.
It's similar to that. Daveliam can stop putting the effort into being in a straight romance and be himself in a game. That is a relief so he appreciates it.
I can play a male role but I'd rather not. So I appreciate the companies that allow me to be a hero as a female. It's why I don't play Witcher even though I liked the series. If I have the option to be a female in a game, I'm going to take it.
Again, because you make it abnormal. You want to make society change their views, make them see a character, not a gay character.
I say look around you. The media is pro-gay. Society will change their views because it's told to. I wouldn't worry so hard about this game if that's your concern. Change in this matter is coming from the same people that got people to wear skinny jeans.
It will happen so don't worry about it and let people play their game and be happy.
Again, because you make it abnormal. You want to make society change their views, make them see a character, not a gay character.
The logic in this statement doesn't quite gel with me.
If society in general already considers something to be abnormal/less acceptable, how would open appreciation of its representation in the media make it worse?
This makes no sense. We keep talking about it because we feel it's important and it deserves to be appreciated. You claim it's not important and shouldn't matter, yet you continue to argue against people who feel that it is important. If it's not important, then why do you care so much to continue to discuss it. I spend time discussing it because I think it's important. What's your reasoning?
Does it make Solas 'abnormal' if people are excited to have an elven apostate character? Does it make Cassandra 'abnormal' if people are excited to have a strong female warrior as a LI?
First, because I find this reaction interesting due to the irony.
Second, yes and yes. It makes cass special, and it makes solas special. Fortunately for Cass, being a strong woman isn't something that needs as much effort to accept as gays, at least not in western society. Gays have a longer way to go however.
The logic in this statement doesn't quite gel with me.
If society in general already considers something to be abnormal/less acceptable, how would open appreciation of its representation in the media make it worse?
Same reason why pointing out a pimple on your face makes it harder for me to ignore.
Same reason why pointing out a pimple on your face makes it harder for me to ignore.
OK, so if someone sees being black, or being gay, or whatever as the equivalent of an ugly blemish, how could their view be made any worse by seeing other people be glad that the media is giving it recognition in the form of a popular character?
Same reason why pointing out a pimple on your face makes it harder for me to ignore.
I'm still not seeing how this applies to how people appreciate a game for its inclusiveness. If someone bakes me a cake and I'm all "I totally appreciate that cake" I'm just being normal.
I'm still not seeing how this applies to how people appreciate a game for its inclusiveness. If someone bakes me a cake and I'm all "I totally appreciate that cake" I'm just being normal.
Not really, getting a glass of water and saying thank you is normal. Not making a thread about it.
OK, so if someone sees being black, or being gay, or whatever as the equivalent of an ugly blemish, how could their view be made any worse by seeing other people be glad that the media is giving it recognition in the form of a popular character?
That wasn't the point of the comparison. It's not that anyone sees it as an ugly blemish. I certainly don't considering I'm biracial.
Bring up anything that isn't necessarily a normal everyday occurrence to you, even though having a pimple is actually rather normal. It's common sense that if you want people to accept something as normal, you don't single it out as anything but normal. Can't get more clear than that.
That's why people in wheelchairs don't like being given special treatment. They want to be accepted and treated like everyone else.
Not really, getting a glass of water and saying thank you is normal. Not making a thread about it.
Maybe the OP wants to make friends? He's identifying himself to the forum as GLBT friendly. That's a normal mode of communication that gains acceptance,to show that you are "with" Group A. Instead of making a post saying "Hi, I'm GLBT friendly."..he's saying that without saying it.
That's normal behavior from humans, is it not?
First, because I find this reaction interesting due to the irony.
Second, yes and yes. It makes cass special, and it makes solas special. Fortunately for Cass, being a strong woman isn't something that needs as much effort to accept as gays, at least not in western society. Gays have a longer way to go however.
I'm not sure I see any 'irony' here. There's no dissonance. We want to see more and better LGBT representation than historically happened. Bioware is doing it and we are saying we appreciate that. Where's the irony?
And the only reason why, in western society, being a strong woman isn't something that needs as much effort is because there were a group who, for many years, made it that way by pointing out how few strong women were in the media and openly appreciating when they did show up.
I'm not sure how you think social change happens, but it doesn't happen on it's own. It happens because people point out when there's a group that's under- or misrepresented, highlight when it's not done well, and celebrate when it's done well. That's what's happening still with LGBT representation. Surely, if you can understand that seeing strong women in video games isn't as uncommon as it used to be, you can understand the idea behind this thread, right?
That's why people in wheelchairs don't like being given special treatment. They want to be accepted and treated like everyone else.
I almost ignored this part...are you for realz? People in wheelchairs totally want the close parking spots, the special stalls etc because life would be a ****** leaving their house without them.
If I can't move my legs you better be sure I not only want the special stall in the bathroom but I would cut a ****** who parked in handicapped and then walked out their car.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I don't think media made much difference on "strong women". My own mom is like that. Or if you have friends like that, it makes a difference. The people in your life change things. Watching TV... not so much.
The point being that simply assuming that someone isn't bisexual because they haven't explicitly made references to appreciating both sexes doesn't really work.
In real life, sure. In-game all we have is their very limited dialogue, so if one character is making many references to attraction to the opposite sex but nothing regarding homosexuality finding out they're bisexual raises eyebrows.
That's why people in wheelchairs don't like being given special treatment. They want to be accepted and treated like everyone else.
Oh man. If people in wheelchairs were treated like everyone else, they could basically kiss accessibility into any building sufficiently elevated off of street level, or any modes of transportation beyond that wheelchair itself goodbye.
I almost ignored this part...are you for realz? People in wheelchairs totally want the close parking spots, the special stalls etc because life would be a ****** leaving their house without them.
If I can't move my legs you better be sure I not only want the special stall in the bathroom but I would cut a ****** who parked in handicapped and then walked out their car.
Well, I actually had someone in a wheelchair in my family because they were shot in the military, and he refused to take any of these special options because it made him feel like ****. He did when it was absolutely necessary, but resisted the idea that he was any different than anyone else, and we did our best to not treat him as such.
Maybe the OP wants to make friends?
I'm not a mind reader, guy. But if you want gays to be "normal" in society, treating them as special goes against that. No amount of questioning changes that, and that's where I stand.
Anyway, I'm going to eat. Be back later.
I don't think media made much difference on "strong women". My own mom is like that. Or if you have friends like that, it makes a difference. The people in your life change things. Watching TV... not so much.
Certainly, there's a stronger influence from people you know directly. But don't discount the media. The media has a give and take relationship with societal norms. What is considered the 'norm' is represented in the media. This can cause further skew in that direction as people fail to see other 'options' for them. I'll stick with LGBT representation. If all you see are gay men played as jokes and villains, then, as a young gay guy, that's how you begin to form your personality. You start to dislike that aspect of yourself because you don't see anything positive in it. If there were also positive representations, then it counters that out.
As societal norms shift, media shifts to reflect this. It just takes critical mass to see that shift. There have been a ton of LGBT posters on this board who credit Bioware's games with helping them 'come to terms' with their sexuality. For many, this is one of the first places where they can see themselves represented in a respectful way. It might not seem like a big deal to you, but it certainly is for them.
Again, all of this being said, of course a strong role model or peer could have a larger influence on a person. The problem is that we're only at a little over 50% of the population in the U.S. who approve of LGBT rights. It's a lot lower if we look at global rates. It's hard for some people to get that 'in person' influence. And that's why having respectful media representation is so important still.
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