328 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Well, I actually had someone in a wheelchair in my family because they were shot in the military, and he refused to take any of these special options because it made him feel like ****. He did when it was absolutely necessary, but resisted the idea that he was any different than anyone else, and we did our best to not treat him as such.

My uncle spent the rest of his days in a wheelchair after catching a stroke, and he didn't want certain options either, even refusing to have handlebars installed in the house, which would be handy so he could do some mundane things like go to the bathroom by himself. Of course, my aunt didn't listen and had them installed anyway, because she didn't want to hoist his stubborn, heavy ass when he could do it himself, and "don't want to clean up his body if he broke his neck on the toilet".

 

Some people don't respond well at all to their state of vulnerability, but these "special options" are not the same as unnecessary dotage. Some of these things can be vital, or come in exceptionally handy given the state the person's body is left in. This really isn't the same thing.

[Zobert]

I'm a post op trans women and I don't avoid my history, not anymore, I did at one time and didn't feel whole as my experiences are a part of who I am, they shaped me. I'm also lesbian and I don't consider either to be abnormal and don't see why celebrating a companies inclusion of such character's makes them abnormal. Krem is the first positive representation of a trans person that I've seen in my lifetime in the media and yes I'm going to celebrate when it happens.

 

Have you seen Dallas Buyers Club?  I thought that was a fairly positive role.  (Since you can't tell tone, my tone is inquisitive).

[Zobert]

I used to feel similarly, that I needed support from society until I went to a Thich Nat Hanh "lecture" and since then I have developed a more insular view of change and necessity, although I don't discount the feelings of others.

 

I cannot dictate what others say, think, or feel.  It will never happen so instead of trying to change the world's feelings I've learned to change me and in doing so I'm much happier than I used to be.

 

Not to say that I'm 100% being a flawed person and all.

[Zobert]

I haven't seen it yet, thanks for mentioning it, I really do need to see it.

 

It's very good on many, many levels.  I also think that the Crying Game did so, as well.  She's not really a drag queen since she lives as a female at work, home, etc.  Just not a post-operative one.  Del is a kind, helpful, and sympathetic character, IMO.

 

I loved that character and she is one of my favs in movies to this day.

[Zobert]

I really did enjoy that movie, I forgot about her. Ugh, how could I have forgotten Del.

 

I was a little kid the first time I saw it on HBO or Showtime (I forget which) and we had just come from the Soviet Union/Russia and it was just shocking.  I didn't understand that whole concept so in a way it pointed me towards an understanding of us all being spirits in people suits.

 

It was a life changing movie for me.  Del was the "heart" and the hero of the movie.  When Del was put into boys clothes it was heartbreaking.

[SofaJockey]

It seems to me that part of the reason why people tend to celebrate this sort of thing is that institutionalized racism and other various forms of discrimination still permeate throughout society. When that goes away, then people will probably stop caring to make a big deal about it.

 

And it remains the case that when a character reveal from BioWare includes as a facet that they are gay, then it's 'front page news' on the gamer sites.

[FadelessRipley]

Oh Jesus. 
 
First, I was responding to FadeRipley's comments about feeling those characters as gay, straight, and bi in a supportive way because I knew that someone like you would have a comment like the above and the potential to be high for the judge-y-ness kick in.  'll note that you didn't throw down a lecture on her, but we'll let that go because it's not your job to lecture me or anyone else on how we choose to express ourselves here, on the moon, in the train station, at the club or anywhere else because you don't pay my bills and we don't call you "Mom" or "Dad".
 
Second, as a bisexual who has dated a fairly even number of both genders I personally have no problem with any assumptions people make about me because I am not uptight about **** like that.  I believe that most people are good and don't intend to offend others.  People can ask me a question, make a gentle assumption about neutral categories and I don't wet the bed or get angry.  If you choose to then you choose to, don't put your own personal issues with people's language on me.
 
If someone doesn't know I'm bisexual I really don't care.  If someone assumes I'm gay, I don't care.  If they assume I'm straight I don't care because it's like assuming what my natural haircolor is--something that's biological.  It is zero insult to me if an assumption is made that I'm gay/straight/bi/pan/female/male/American, etc. because it is not a comment on my character.  I don't have high expectations of other people nor does anyone owe me any particular behavior besides polite conversation...
 
Speaking of which, we shall return to what is expected of two humans engaging in dialogue and ironically your argument about assumptions includes a hella lot of assumption and inference about what I had to say.
 
I am speaking of a 2D written character where you don't have more than 3-4 options of dialogue in any given scene and maybe an hour+ worth of overall dialogue, therefore the onus is on the writers to make you understand their character.  The precedence has been set in previous games regarding how the writers show/tell you about the orientation of the character.

I'm surprised, and I think I'm as worthy of questioning as you are. I totally get what Xilizhra is saying - it shouldn't be just based on dialogue options. That said, I did read those characters being one way or another for various reasons including dialogue, mannerisms etc. Of course Fenris can be bi and so on - he's presented as such. It's a question of whether that's the actual intention, or was it a case of not gendergating the 4 DA2 LIs either of of a wish to please everyone or time constraints. I read Fenris as straight, and Anders as more gay. Having all LIs be bi in 2 just wasn't realistic IMO. I think Origins and Inquisition's approaches were better.

[FadelessRipley]

I'm a post op trans women and I don't avoid my history, not anymore, I did at one time and didn't feel whole as my experiences are a part of who I am, they shaped me. I'm also lesbian and I don't consider either to be abnormal and don't see why celebrating a companies inclusion of such character's makes them abnormal. Krem is the first positive representation of a trans person that I've seen in my lifetime in the media and yes I'm going to celebrate when it happens.

I'm glad you enjoyed Krem. I was pretty shocked that BioWare went there, but I'm glad they did. I personally found him excellent but I'd always defer to an opinion such as yours. Keep enjoying him and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

[Zobert]

I'm surprised, and I think I'm as worthy of questioning as you are. I totally get what Xilizhra is saying - it shouldn't be just based on dialogue options. That said, I did read those characters being one way or another for various reasons including dialogue, mannerisms etc. Of course Fenris can be bi and so on - he's presented as such. It's a question of whether that's the actual intention, or was it a case of not gendergating the 4 DA2 LIs either of of a wish to please everyone or time constraints. I read Fenris as straight, and Anders as more gay. Having all LIs be bi in 2 just wasn't realistic IMO. I think Origins and Inquisition's approaches were better.

 

How else would you even know?  It's difficult in this format and we can't place RL expectations on a game or get riled up over people's understanding.

 

In real life you can suss out someone's orientation although I'm not sure why we'd bother if we're not intending to date him or her since really your orientation is like .05% of "who" you are.

 

I'm more interested in what books, music, or games they're into.

[Zobert]

And it remains the case that when a character reveal from BioWare includes as a facet that they are gay, then it's 'front page news' on the gamer sites.

 

Some of that is Bioware, though.  All publicity is good publicity.

[FadelessRipley]

I enjoyed Krem, I'm sad that so many who were looking forward to seeing him in game an enjoyed his character are gone, I'm not sure if any character with maybe the exception of Sera has been hammered as much as he has, on the boards. I do so miss the people I used to know. I was happy with his portrayal maybe a couple of different conversation points would have been nice as that has been some of the criticism of him. The constant use of the wrong gender pronoun has been rather grating, I don't think that people see the harm they can do by telling someone that they don't exist or that what they feel isn't real. It's more real than most people could ever know but unfortunately feeling it is probably the only way to realize how much of an effect it can have on someone's life.I'm sorry to put some of that in your reply but it's just things that have bothered me in general.

No, don't be sorry. I'm lucky enough to have a few trans friends so I'm less ignorant than many people on the issues, thankfully. I also get very angry at people for being idiots about it. I really liked Krem, and understand what he means to people like yourself. You're always welcome to PM and we can have a "We Krem" party.

[Zobert]

I enjoyed Krem, I'm sad that so many who were looking forward to seeing him in game an enjoyed his character are gone, I'm not sure if any character with maybe the exception of Sera has been hammered as much as he has, on the boards. I do so miss the people I used to know. I was happy with his portrayal maybe a couple of different conversation points would have been nice as that has been some of the criticism of him. The constant use of the wrong gender pronoun has been rather grating, I don't think that people see the harm they can do by telling someone that they don't exist or that what they feel isn't real. It's more real than most people could ever know but unfortunately feeling it is probably the only way to realize how much of an effect it can have on someone's life.

I'm sorry to put some of that in your reply but it's just things that have bothered me in general.

Edit: need to get my eyes checked I read your post as did I enjoy Krem.

 

You can be 100% or no and I will not mind but...

 

Did you really think Krem was a great character?  My issues was that in a 2D world you kinda have to go hard or go home.  IMO, they should have made Krem a companion or just not did it --or choose a female (MTF) first because (IMO)...

 

 

1) Use of similar hairstyles in the creator makes all hairstyles genderless so you can't tell from the hairstyle

2) Female voice actor who is the same as some of the req sgts in the field who are female

3) Everyone wears the same armor so you can't tell from the armor

4) It's still am abiguous trans experience

 

I had a hard time dissociating Krem from a butch lesbian or even just a female warrior in the game because of the genderless aspect of dress and hair, etc.

 

You have very little conversation with Krem about Krem before you roll into Krem's very personal life experience.  I think always about how I'd feel and if I talked to someone for the equivalent of ten minutes before they asked me if I am a transperson I would be offended, but the game plays that as natural.

 

I dunno, I feel like they should have made Krem a companion and then allowed for more of a storyline like Dorians.

[KainD]

No, don't be sorry. I'm lucky enough to have a few trans friends so I'm less ignorant than many people on the issues, thankfully. I also get very angry at people for being idiots about it.

One cannot be an idiot on the matter, people just have different opinions, and it doesn't mean that they are ignorant.

[FadelessRipley]

One cannot be an idiot on the matter, people just have different opinions, and it doesn't mean that they are ignorant.

Ignorant in the sense of lacking knowledge/understanding. And if someone repeatedly misgenders a trans person after having it explained to them and asked not to, or refuses to accept that such a thing actually exists despite personal experiences and the acknowledgement of the medical community, etc, well... May not be an idiot, but certainly are at best rude, at worst downright nasty.

Opinions are fine, but wouldn't one normally defer to those with actual experience on a subject?

[SofaJockey]

... And if someone repeatedly misgenders a trans person after having it explained to them and asked not to ...

 

I really dislike that, it shows such little respect.

I may have done it myself before I learnt about such things (BSN is an education), but once you know, you know.

[Zobert]

Ignorant in the sense of lacking knowledge/understanding. And if someone repeatedly misgenders a trans person after having it explained to them and asked not to, or refuses to accept that such a thing actually exists despite personal experiences and the acknowledgement of the medical community, etc, well... May not be an idiot, but certainly are at best rude, at worst downright nasty.

Opinions are fine, but wouldn't one normally defer to those with actual experience on a subject?

 

If someone asks you to call them ___________ you should, that's polite.  I do understand, however, people who have known you your whole life, like Cher and Chaz where it's harder because it's habitual, to remember the pronoun.

 

But at the end of the day we all need to still view everyone around us as basically good and someone with good intentions because that's the truth.  Our worldview is either half-empty or half-full and the world we manifest is based on that perception.  If we believe people mean bad towards us, if we take offense at words and not be the change we want to see, then the world we create (or help to create) is a divisive one.

 

We must bend to see others bend, even if it feels like it's always on us to do so.  It's a small thing, really, to create a happier world of understanding and love.

[FadelessRipley]

Everyone is guilty of it at times, especially if someone in your life comes out as trans. It's forgivable! Deliberate refusal to do so is disrespectful and hurtful, though. It doesn't kill you to change a pronoun!

[Zobert]

Everyone is guilty of it at times, especially if someone in your life comes out as trans. It's forgivable! Deliberate refusal to do so is disrespectful and hurtful, though. It doesn't kill you to change a pronoun!

 

I agree--except when it's your mama.  Having 40 years of "her, she, etc" is hard to break overnight because you see that person every day.

 

I still call people by their "maiden" name.  Not because I don't care but because I'm stupid.  I eventually get there, but it's just habit.  It's easier with new people.

[KainD]

Ignorant in the sense of lacking knowledge/understanding. And if someone repeatedly misgenders a trans person after having it explained to them and asked not to, or refuses to accept that such a thing actually exists despite personal experiences and the acknowledgement of the medical community, etc, well... May not be an idiot, but certainly are at best rude, at worst downright nasty.

Opinions are fine, but wouldn't one normally defer to those with actual experience on a subject?

Here's the thing - some people simply don't want to change their concepts for other people. For example, I do not have a sense of gender, and to me pronouns are strictly tied to ones set of genitals ( to put it bluntly simple ), and that is the dictionary definition. Not that I want to get into random conflicts or prove my own point to everyone, but trans people start to confuse me, because they use the same words that I do, but give them different meaning, that causes miscommunication. To me Krem is a she because that is what her physical self is.