328 réponses à ce sujet

[Zobert]

Here's the thing - some people simply don't want to change their concepts for other people. For example, I do not have a sense of gender, and to me pronouns are strictly tied to ones set of genitals ( to put it bluntly simple ), and that is the dictionary definition. Not that I want to get into random conflicts or prove my own point to everyone, but trans people start to confuse me, because they use the same words that I do, but give them different meaning, that causes miscommunication. To me Krem is a she because that is what her physical self is.

 

That's where I am.  I don't "feel" my gender.  I don't even understand it aside from I have a vagina.  It's not a rudeness thing on my part for all I know I should be feeling something I'm not.

 

Maybe every other female out there feels female in a way that I don't.

 

I could be genderless or both genders for all I know.

[KainD]

That's where I am. I don't "feel" my gender. I don't even understand it aside from I have a vagina. It's not a rudeness thing on my part for all I know I should be feeling something I'm not..

Can we be friends?

[Zobert]

Can we be friends?

 

LOL sure. 

[Zobert]

When I saw and talked to Krem I saw a male, to me he presented as male with a young higher voice, now I can't say if my perception was skewed by the fact that I knew about Krem and who voiced him before the game was released, as it leaked and made it's way to a group I belong to. I think that BioWare wanted to just dip into the subject, not taking a full jump and that's why he was a NPC as I think they were afraid of blowback on the character and not just from people not wanting it but from trans people as well. They received a lot of negative feedback on Serendipity, well deserved by the way. I think the more positive reaction to Mae in the comic gave them more of an ability to try this and I really think they wanted to do it to sort of make up for Serendipity. Maybe Mae will make it into DA4 but it's really tricky as it's still a rough subject to breech and they have many eyes watching them. I hope I answered your question.

 

I think when you're hamstringed with the graphic limitations they placed on the game it makes it that much harder.  That's why I felt a companion would be better suited so you get to know the character.

 

But thanks.  Not trying to make you the rep for all things trans so it's appreciated.

[FadelessRipley]

Here's the thing - some people simply don't want to change their concepts for other people. For example, I do not have a sense of gender, and to me pronouns are strictly tied to ones set of genitals ( to put it bluntly simple ), and that is the dictionary definition. Not that I want to get into random conflicts or prove my own point to everyone, but trans people start to confuse me, because they use the same words that I do, but give them different meaning, that causes miscommunication. To me Krem is a she because that is what her physical self is.

There's a difference between physical sex and gender. The whole crux of being transgender is that your physical assigned-at-birth sex does not match your internal gender. By any understanding of trans, Krem is male. If you disagree or won't accept that, that's entirely your choice - but expect people to get upset, hurt and offended.

Not having a sense of gender is an admirable view. However, for most of us, gender DOES exist, no matter how non binary we wish to see it as. As for trans people confusing you, well all I can suggest is to try talking to them more. I personally don't see how it's in any way confusing, but that's just me.

There's no tone options here unfortunately, so just to say FTR I don't necessarily think you're a bad/ignorant person based on the posts you've made here, and I'm not being in any way confrontational. I don't know how much you've looked into it/spoken to trans folk, but I always recommend it. Talking to instead of about a minority is usually more fruitful.

[Zobert]

There's a difference between physical sex and gender. The whole crux of being transgender is that your physical assigned-at-birth sex does not match your internal gender. By any understanding of trans, Krem is male. If you disagree or won't accept that, that's entirely your choice - but expect people to get upset, hurt and offended.

Not having a sense of gender is an admirable view. However, for most of us, gender DOES exist, no matter how non binary we wish to see it as. As for trans people confusing you, well all I can suggest is to try talking to them more. I personally don't see how it's in any way confusing, but that's just me.

There's no tone options here unfortunately, so just to say FTR I don't necessarily think you're a bad/ignorant person based on the posts you've made here, and I'm not being in any way confrontational. I don't know how much you've looked into it/spoken to trans folk, but I always recommend it. Talking to instead of about a minority is usually more fruitful.

 

 

Okay, okay, okay...but what does your internal gender feel like?

 

 

That's what I honestly want to know because it is quite possible (and my tone is serious) that I am either no gender or both genders because I have no clue at all, I mean 100% zero clue, what my internal gender feels like.

 

It can't just be that I look down at my body and don't feel right because I don't feel right about my body period.  I feel like bodies are superfluous. 

 

Am I "both" genders?  Am I no gender?

 

Just telling people that they should know what this feels like or treating us like aholes because we don't understand isn't fair.  I could be missing an experience that all the rest of you are having, in that there could very well be something wrong with me.

 

So if someone cannot accurately educate me on what I should feel like or rather what I should internally be experiencing I don't see how I can get clocked for not being accepting/understanding.

[Zobert]

BTW, if I could rep Danielle for being "nice" and understanding in PMs I would.  It's cool that she's taking the time.

[SofaJockey]

If an informed source explains to me the words I was using were not fitting, then it's reasonable for me to adjust my mental definition.

 

I do think there are cultural reasons why acceptance may be a slower process in certain circumstances,

and there may be a generational aspect (my parents were pretty bigoted, but in part down to upbringing and again culture).

 

In the UK same-sex marriage is now legal.

There are certainly folk who are struggling with the semantics of a same-sex couple being 'married', or 'husband and husband' (or wife).

Some people will be perfectly able to adjust their mental definition, and for others it will take a generation to effect the change.

 

(and some interesting psycho-sexual discussions in this thread, but I suspect we may be going off topic  )

[FadelessRipley]

Okay, okay, okay...but what does your internal gender feel like?
 
 
That's what I honestly want to know because it is quite possible (and my tone is serious) that I am either no gender or both genders because I have no clue at all, I mean 100% zero clue, what my internal gender feels like.
 
It can't just be that I look down at my body and don't feel right because I don't feel right about my body period.  I feel like bodies are superfluous. 
 
Am I "both" genders?  Am I no gender?
 
Just telling people that they should know what this feels like or treating us like aholes because we don't understand isn't fair.  I could be missing an experience that all the rest of you are having, in that there could very well be something wrong with me.
 
So if someone cannot accurately educate me on what I should feel like or rather what I should internally be experiencing I don't see how I can get clocked for not being accepting/understanding.

No one should educate you on what you should feel or be internally experiencing! I'm by no means an expert on gender. If you're asking what MINE is, well it's cis female, albeit with some masculine characteristics. Is that connected to my being gay? Haven't a clue, maybe or maybe not.

I don't feel qualified to answer for anyone who is trans or otherwise non binary or whatever, so feel free to correct me, anyone. I believe gender is fluid to an extent, though perhaps not as fluid as some people feel. I think that not all really masculine men or really feminine women are that way purely from social conditioning, for example. Some people are closer to the typical end of the scale for the gender they're assigned at birth, some are further away, and some are completely at the other end of the spectrum (trans).

I can't tell you what you are, Zobert. I'm not in your body, your mind. If you're happy, I'm happy. But can you honestly say you can tell Dani or someone trans what they are...?

[KainD]

. I don't know how much you've looked into it/spoken to trans folk, but I always recommend it. Talking to instead of about a minority is usually more fruitful.

About 3 years now. Talking to trans folk, watching documentaries, reading studies. Never makes any sense to me. Some come across to me as just being sexist, and some just don't make any sense to my mind.

[FadelessRipley]

About 3 years now. Talking to trans folk, watching documentaries, reading studies. Never makes any sense to me. Some come across to me as just being sexist, and some just don't make any sense to my mind.

I'm not sure what to say, in that case. We're likely to not agree, and I don't want to appear to be attacking you for your opinions. I'd be interested to hear how you came to these conclusions, but the thread may explode. I'm open to PMs if you're so inclined. But in all likelihood we'll have to just agree to disagree.

I would ask one question, though: is respecting a person's request about names and pronouns really so hard, whatever one's overall opinion is? I'm not assuming that you do or don't, btw.

[Raiil]

About 3 years now. Talking to trans folk, watching documentaries, reading studies. Never makes any sense to me. Some come across to me as just being sexist, and some just don't make any sense to my mind.

 

 

In terms of what, like the body dysphoria?

[KainD]

I would ask one question, though: is respecting a person's request about names and pronouns really so hard, whatever one's overall opinion is? I'm not assuming that you do or don't, btw.

Here's the thing - people interact with each other, and one of those interactions is looking for a companion. Now I am a straight guy, and since I am not asexual, I am interested in sex in my relationship. Now if I were to meet a trans woman and would like her, it would be very awkward when things would come to sex, because I would not be interested in the act unless she would have genuine female sexual characteristics, so we could only be friends. And the whole thing would be like a waste of time.

So something like that.

[KainD]

In terms of what, like the body dysphoria?

Yeah, I don't get that as well. I wouldn't care if I had a female body instead, that wouldn't really change anything about me as a person. The only thing that I would hope for ( not trying to be disrespectful ) is that my sexuality would change along with that and I would like men instead of women, and I would remain straight, as I find that more convenient.

[Zobert]

No one should educate you on what you should feel or be internally experiencing! I'm by no means an expert on gender. If you're asking what MINE is, well it's cis female, albeit with some masculine characteristics. Is that connected to my being gay? Haven't a clue, maybe or maybe not.

I don't feel qualified to answer for anyone who is trans or otherwise non binary or whatever, so feel free to correct me, anyone. I believe gender is fluid to an extent, though perhaps not as fluid as some people feel. I think that not all really masculine men or really feminine women are that way purely from social conditioning, for example. Some people are closer to the typical end of the scale for the gender they're assigned at birth, some are further away, and some are completely at the other end of the spectrum (trans).

I can't tell you what you are, Zobert. I'm not in your body, your mind. If you're happy, I'm happy. But can you honestly say you can tell Dani or someone trans what they are...?

 

 

That's not what I'm getting at.

 

People speak of gender as an internal, monogamous term instead of (how many people are on the planet now?) it being defined by the feelings of billions.  We are either male or female on the inside, thus we can appropriate a gender term to describe transgender, which is what people have said it is to feel "female" on the inside while having male genitalia or feeling "male" on the inside with female genitalia.

 

Therefore there has to be some binary definition that is describable in terms that we can all understand and self-appropriate because no one says in modernity that transgender people are "other".  They are male of female.

 

Do I match my genitalia?  How do I even know unless someone can define what "female" is?  It cannot be out own definition if we are to apply it to others, do you see what I'm saying?  Or else we lose all meaning of that term.

 

Danielle felt female on the inside and was able to change her body to match that feeling.  I don't know what that feeling is.  So I pose, not to anyone particular person, is is possible to have no gender, both genders, or...?

 

I dunno.  I don't know what "female" is.

 

I am seriously starting to wonder if I am nothing or both or all things because I cannot wrap my head around anything observable or exclusively female about myself other than the whole "kid-clock ticking" feeling.  It's not orientation because I think both sexes are attractive.  It's not a gravitation to hair, makeup, etc. because both genders have that. 

 

It's discussions like these and times like these that I feel like I'm Neo and in the Matrix where I belong with and to no one at all because I can't feel what others seem to feel.

[Colonelkillabee]

Okay, okay, okay...but what does your internal gender feel like?

 

 

That's what I honestly want to know because it is quite possible (and my tone is serious) that I am either no gender or both genders because I have no clue at all, I mean 100% zero clue, what my internal gender feels like.

 

It can't just be that I look down at my body and don't feel right because I don't feel right about my body period.  I feel like bodies are superfluous. 

 

Am I "both" genders?  Am I no gender?

 

Just telling people that they should know what this feels like or treating us like aholes because we don't understand isn't fair.  I could be missing an experience that all the rest of you are having, in that there could very well be something wrong with me.

 

So if someone cannot accurately educate me on what I should feel like or rather what I should internally be experiencing I don't see how I can get clocked for not being accepting/understanding.

 

See, this is why many people stick to defining gender by physical sex. How someone feels "gender" wise internally doesn't mean much beyond to the person themselves. Hence why we have women who'd rather go play football with the guys than go talk about makeup. They're still as much women as anyone else. People are mixing societal constructions for men and women and what they feel more comfortable as (feminine and masculine) as something more, and it really isn't.

[Zobert]

Well, i believe people when they tell me they don't feel like their insides and outsides match.  I think it could be they are a reincarnated soul (don't laugh) but at the same time I can't understand that feeling because I don't understand feminine besides that whole kids thing--and that's only recently on my part.

 

I used to look at kids like they were germ conventions.

 

Edit: I don't think I'm exclusively anything.  I'm very fluid in all aspects of my life so maybe I'm broken.  I started liking guys, then I didn't.  I only dated girls and thought I was a lesbian until I met my current BF now he's like ...I dunno...my obsession, soulmate...I just feel whole when he's around.  I didn't think I had "straight" feelings anymore.

 

I guess I'm a jumble of everything.

[Colonelkillabee]

Well, i believe people when they tell me they don't feel like their insides and outsides match.  I think it could be they are a reincarnated soul (don't laugh) but at the same time I can't understand that feeling because I don't understand feminine besides that whole kids thing--and that's only recently on my part.

 

I used to look at kids like they were germ conventions.

I won't laugh, I'm religious too. To an extent. Somewhere between Christian and Agnostic.

 

Anyway I believe them as well, and I think personally that it has to do partly with what society tells people being a man and a woman is supposed to be like. Not everyone's going to accurately meld in with societal norms. Doesn't mean they're literally women with male bodies. Or however people wish to describe it. I've heard many variations of what being trans means to a trans person.

 

The problem here is that people think a woman has to strictly be feminine and a man has to be masculine. Which isn't true even if you're straight.

[dragonflight288]

There's a difference between physical sex and gender. The whole crux of being transgender is that your physical assigned-at-birth sex does not match your internal gender. By any understanding of trans, Krem is male. If you disagree or won't accept that, that's entirely your choice - but expect people to get upset, hurt and offended.

Not having a sense of gender is an admirable view. However, for most of us, gender DOES exist, no matter how non binary we wish to see it as. As for trans people confusing you, well all I can suggest is to try talking to them more. I personally don't see how it's in any way confusing, but that's just me.

There's no tone options here unfortunately, so just to say FTR I don't necessarily think you're a bad/ignorant person based on the posts you've made here, and I'm not being in any way confrontational. I don't know how much you've looked into it/spoken to trans folk, but I always recommend it. Talking to instead of about a minority is usually more fruitful.

 

But, and this is a serious question, what is it about being a woman or a man that a transgendered feels uncomfortable with?

 

Is it that they are not comfortable with societal and cultural norms established for that gender or do they feel like they identify with a societal or cultural norm that applies to the opposite gender and that is why they feel as they feel?

 

To be frank, and I mean no offense but I'd rather get to the heart of the matter, are people transgendered or transexual because they reject what society and culture says they are or is there something else to it? Does a transgendered female (and by that a woman who identifies herself as a man) fit in with men everywhere internally, or are there facets of manhood they identify with and other parts they reject?

 

For example, I happen to know a transgendered person in real life. Not best friends but we get along and talk with one another just fine. I'll refer to her as her because that's her physical gender. 

 

She identifies with men because she is atheltic, loves sports, and has no problem joining learning martial arts and can dish out punishment better than she can take it. I asked her if she would identify with the guys who join a chess club or gather together to play Magic the Gathering and spend their money on booster packs and she quite frankly said no she doesn't identify with those guys and instead identified with the guys who played sports. 

 

This confused the heck out of me because the guys playing chess and Magic are no less men than the guys who play sports. It had everything to do with personal interests and what societal stereotypes said is masculine and feminine and nothing to do with the personal interests of the people playing that particular game. 

 

Yes, women can be just as competitive as men, stronger and more athletic, and men can also care a great deal on their appearances and feel more comfortable talking about things with women than hanging out with other guys, but are they, really and truly, any less a woman or a man because they behave in a way they feel is contrary to how a woman or a man should act by their cultural rules?

 

Again, no offense is meant, but I simply do not get it. But if someone identifies with being transgendered, gay, lesbian or whatever, that is still really only a small part of who they are as people. Krem is a great warrior. So is Cassandra and Aveline. What makes Krem more or less man/woman than either of these two powerful women?

[Zobert]

This is where I like the term "queer" because that's how I feel.  I don't fit in with anyone other than my current BF and only because we have a marriage of the minds.  We are sexual, I don't mean we're not but that we meet on a different plane where it's two souls talking.

[KainD]

This is where I like the term "queer" because that's how I feel. I don't fit in with anyone other than my current BF and only because we have a marriage of the minds. We are sexual, I don't mean we're not but that we meet on a different plane where it's two souls talking.

Stop making people jealous with your happiness.

[Zobert]

Stop making people jealous with your happiness.

 

Well, it's happy on a knife's edge.  I always worry he'll go away and I'll be mentally alone again.

[FadelessRipley]

But, and this is a serious question, what is it about being a woman or a man that a transgendered feels uncomfortable with?

Is it that they are not comfortable with societal and cultural norms established for that gender or do they feel like they identify with a societal or cultural norm that applies to the opposite gender and that is why they feel as they feel?

To be frank, and I mean no offense but I'd rather get to the heart of the matter, are people transgendered or transexual because they reject what society and culture says they are or is there something else to it? Does a transgendered female (and by that a woman who identifies herself as a man) fit in with men everywhere internally, or are there facets of manhood they identify with and other parts they reject?

For example, I happen to know a transgendered person in real life. Not best friends but we get along and talk with one another just fine. I'll refer to her as her because that's her physical gender.

She identifies with men because she is atheltic, loves sports, and has no problem joining learning martial arts and can dish out punishment better than she can take it. I asked her if she would identify with the guys who join a chess club or gather together to play Magic the Gathering and spend their money on booster packs and she quite frankly said no she doesn't identify with those guys and instead identified with the guys who played sports.

This confused the heck out of me because the guys playing chess and Magic are no less men than the guys who play sports. It had everything to do with personal interests and what societal stereotypes said is masculine and feminine and nothing to do with the personal interests of the people playing that particular game.

Yes, women can be just as competitive as men, stronger and more athletic, and men can also care a great deal on their appearances and feel more comfortable talking about things with women than hanging out with other guys, but are they, really and truly, any less a woman or a man because they behave in a way they feel is contrary to how a woman or a man should act by their cultural rules?

Again, no offense is meant, but I simply do not get it. But if someone identifies with being transgendered, gay, lesbian or whatever, that is still really only a small part of who they are as people. Krem is a great warrior. So is Cassandra and Aveline. What makes Krem more or less man/woman than either of these two powerful women?

I'm really not the one to answer this for you in depth, as I'm not trans myself. My understanding and from what I know from close friends is it's feeling completely wrong in your physical body and in trying to conform to gender roles. It goes far beyond "rejecting societal norms".

Take myself for example: I absolutely detest dresses and have since childhood. I'm not what you'd call butch exactly, but not stereotypically feminine either. I preferred boys toys as a kid. However, I am not transgendered as I've never felt uncomfortable in my physical woman's body. I don't feel as though I'm actually male and it's not matching up. I'm uncomfortable in conforming to gender roles, yes. Now, why is this? Short answer: haven't a clue. Does it have something to do with being gay? Maybe, honestly couldn't say. I see gender as a spectrum like many people. Male and female and masculine and feminine are often complicated. I'm not necessarily feminine but am perfectly comfortable in my female body, which means I'm cis and not trans.

As for your friend, I absolutely cannot say how she should or shouldn't identify. She sounds to me like she's simply somewhat masculine. Thing is, trans people aren't a monolith any more than the rest of us are. I know about five very well personally, and a few others from their circles. They're all quite different in terms of sexuality, gender roles and expression, but the common denominator was absolute discomfort in their physical bodies and feeling they were in the wrong one.