115 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

The "shepard's perspective" doesn't make sense to me.

 

Do you know how far he'd have to walk from there and to the spot where the crucible is docked? Definitely further than what we walked in the game.

 

But he didn't walk to the Crucible's location. He was taken up after passing out by the Catalyst. It's another reason why I think Shepard there, because if he goes up from there, he'd make it to the Crucible location in the correct gravity position, unless the Catalyst changed gravity on the way there if taken from where you believe he was. If you're confused, I meant Shepard's perspective is where the control panel is.

 

Like I said before, if Shepard was there, instead of seeing the Citadel arms open, he'd see the Claws Open, not the doors. And if you look at the animation, the doors don't share the same pull back as the claws. You'd also see the edge of earth from above, and not below.

 

 

I think someone suggested Shepard might be upside down, but remember, when Catalyst takes Shepard away, it's taking Shepard up, not down. Unless it's zip zagging poor Shepard around.

[Linkenski]

I think you don't realize how enormous the Citadel is.

 

He arrives very close to the centre and the Catalyst cannot change gravity. The only way Shepard can breathe at the docking point for the Crucible must be becuase there's a mass effect shield around the citadel that we can't see.

 

When he's at the control panel, he's literally in the middle, on the underside of the citadel, and he collapses in front of it and rises directly up (or down) from his current position.

 

He arrives right next to the middle of the citadel, walks up to it, collapses and is taken to the level directly above. It doesn't make sense that he arrives in any anti-gravity area because that would require him to wear a helmet... oh ****, my argument is falling apart (those mass effect 1 contradictions) -- and if he arrives in the tower then it doesn't make sense with the distance we walk...

 

...crap, how big is the citadel tower anyway? I'm not sure of the size of the citadel either now.

[TMA LIVE]

I think you don't realize how enormous the Citadel is.

 

He arrives very close to the centre and the Catalyst cannot change gravity. The only way Shepard can breathe at the docking point for the Crucible must be becuase there's a mass effect shield around the citadel that we can't see.

 

When he's at the control panel, he's literally in the middle, on the underside of the citadel, and he collapses in front of it and rises directly up (or down) from his current position.

 

He arrives right next to the middle of the citadel, walks up to it, collapses and is taken to the level directly above. It doesn't make sense that he arrives in any anti-gravity area because that would require him to wear a helmet... oh ****, my argument is falling apart (those mass effect 1 contradictions) -- and if he arrives in the tower then it doesn't make sense with the distance we walk...

 

...crap, how big is the citadel tower anyway? I'm not sure of the size of the citadel either now.

 

What I mean about gravity is that if you look at the Yellow perspective, which is what you think, he had to have gravity change on him to get in the correct position when moved. Whereas in my position, gravity remained the same from bottom to top of the tower.

 

[Linkenski]

?

 

What are you talking about!? xD

 

if what you're saying is true then the crucible would be directly in front of Shpard when he talks to the catalyst.

 

Overview in profile:

Let's use this for reference.

 

Arrival:

• We're walking in this direction which leads us to the control panel.
• Gravity is facing downwards on the profile picture, and does this the entire time

 

Entering the control room:

 

• The room is round and seemingly in the center between the arms.
• The crucible is docked directly above of this room.

 

Below the Catalyst:

• The yellow circle is this entire room Shepard is standing in. That's how big the scale of the citadel is compared to these locations we see from Shepard's POV.
• Earth's underside is above from out point of view. It fits with the image above this one, but not if we were walking downwards through the tower.
• The arms we see here are facing downwards but remember, the citadel is HUGE so one could easily mistake them for going up here.

 

Crucible location:

 

• It still holds true. Earth is above us.
• Shepard's angle didn't change through his walk inside the citadel
• Shepard's angle or the gravity didn't change when he rose up on the lift that took him to the Catalyst.
• This is practically the roof of the control room.

 

Rundown:

 

At no point in this entire sequence do we see any part of the tower from Shepard's POV because it's below him on an opposite gravital point. We're walking topside down on the underside of the citadel the entire time, walking directly forwards from the walkway highlighted as yellow and then rising directly upwards to the level above where the crucible is.

Modifié par Linkenski, 28 février 2015 - 11:07 .

[Vazgen]

I think I understand what he's trying to say. That Earth line is horizontal in the decision chamber and is at an angle in the cutscenes before that. 

To that I have a simple answer - the station realigns itself. We can even see it, when the arms open during Shepard's ascension to the chamber.

[TMA LIVE]

?

 

What are you talking about!? xD

 

if what you're saying is true then the crucible would be directly in front of Shpard when he talks to the catalyst.

 

 

No. The Crucible would be above Shepard, just like your picture shows. And that is the direction the Catalyst takes Shepard. Up.

 

 

Where from your perspective, it's more like this, and doesn't work.

 

 

[Vazgen]

I don't think it lifts him that far. Also, while taking pictures with flycam today I noticed that the control console is quite close to the base of the tower. 

[TMA LIVE]

I don't think it lifts him that far. Also, while taking pictures with flycam today I noticed that the control console is quite close to the base of the tower. 

 

It'd have to, because then the ring blocks Earth, or you don't see the arms open from Shepard's perspective. Though could be closer or further.

 

The distance doesn't matter. Remember the elevator from ME1 that took you from the ring to the top of the tower? Wasn't that long if the lift used on Shepard is the same speed. Even if it wasn't, remember how in ME1 we space walked the rest of the way?

[Linkenski]

Check my edited post. I'm giving you the full rundown of my theory. Upon further inspection I can see what you mean as well... but I don't think that's the truth.

 

My only leap of logic is that the beam isn't connected properly to the place of arrival in terms of how the gravity is, but let's assume the beam takes you through a crazy slide inside the citadel's inner infrastructure.

[TMA LIVE]

Check my edited post. I'm giving you the full rundown of my theory. Upon further inspection I can see what you mean as well... but I don't think that's the truth.

 

 

Again, based on where you think Shepard is, that doesn't work, because the perspective is blocked by the crucible, or you'd see the Citadel ring in the window. Also, the view of Earth would fill the screen more, and not end at the bottom.

 

From the window, it clearly shows Earth edge, space at the bottom, and two Citadel doors opening to reveal. Same after the Crucible docks, unless there's a 3D Render that shows something that's missing.

 

EDIT: Ah, here's what I'm looking for.

 

 

See how you wouldn't be able to see the Citadel arms open, and earth from where you said? The window shows we're in front of 2 closed arms and on top of Earth, and not near the ring since we can't see it. You'd only see both if you were in the tower.

 

[Valmar]

This is confusing me more than it probably should. As far as a linear path goes what Linkenski drew out makes the most sense. The layout is perfect. But then you take into account that when Shepard opens the arms your SEE the arms open around you. Where as that room directly beneath the crucible actually protrudes out away from the citadel arms. The arms would be below you, yet in the game they fully cover Shepard's view. So he must be lower down than that.

 

That being said, other than the perspective of the arms, what TMA suggests, imo, makes a lot less sense. Which annoys the hell out me really. The design and layout all fit perfectly with Linksenski's illustration. I'd even argue that is what it was meant to be. The only flaw is the arms. Which leads me to believe that maybe we actually aren't meant to see the arms in that control room. Maybe that was something tossed in just to make the scene more atmospheric and cool. I don't know what I'd like more.

 

Somewhat unrelated but isn't the Normandy interior actually bigger than it should be? I seem to recall someone mentioning the scale of the ship was actually off from its interior. If so then this wouldn't be the first time Bioware goofed up on the perspective for aesthetics. Though I don't have a source of that one.

[TMA LIVE]

I don't get how it you don't think it makes sense.

 

Shepard is just sent somewhere in the tower, that's more in the middle of the Citadel (but closer to the ring), then later taken to the bottom of the tower by the Catalyst.

 

[Kabooooom]

Yes, exactly. Shepard is looking at Earth from above, with Earth below. Here's a more specific picture.

Sorry man but this picture makes no sense whatsoever. The Citadel is in stationary orbit above London. The ring of the Presidium is parallel to the surface of earth, and the Citadel tower is perpendicular to the surface of Earth. If Shep was on the bottom aspect of the Citadel tower with an artificial gravity vector opposite that which is normally experienced in the tower, his view would be a vista of earth above, and space below.

I think you may be using cutscenes of the Citadel in orbit around earth to cloud your judgment and create that image. The angle of those cutscenes creates the illusion that the position and angle of the Citadel relative to the curvature of earth is tangential - but it is not.

[TMA LIVE]

Sorry man but this picture makes no sense whatsoever. The Citadel is in stationary orbit above London. The ring of the Presidium is parallel to the surface of earth, and the Citadel tower is perpendicular to the surface of Earth. If Shep was on the bottom aspect of the Citadel tower with an artificial gravity vector opposite that which is normally experienced in the tower, his view would be a vista of earth above, and space below.

 

Exactly. And that's based on the Citadel window. Earth is above, and space is below. Which is why I said, that's where he is. Based on the what we see in that window. Based on the position of Earth. And based the the arms.

 

Why do people keep saying it doesn't make sense, and yet don't tell me anything that makes it not make sense based on the images provided? I'm starting to think people just don't want Shepard in the tower, because someone mugged them there, and it brings back bad memories.

 

If you're arguing that the position doesn't match where London is, well, that the part of the Earth that image is from, so blame Bioware on that one. Though I don't see where on the Citadel Shepard arrives matter where the Citadel itself is facing.

[Kabooooom]

Again, based on where you think Shepard is, that doesn't work, because the perspective is blocked by the crucible, or you'd see the Citadel ring in the window. Also, the view of Earth would fill the screen more, and not end at the bottom.

From the window, it clearly shows Earth edge, space at the bottom, and two Citadel doors opening to reveal. Same after the Crucible docks, unless there's a 3D Render that shows something that's missing.

EDIT: Ah, here's what I'm looking for.



See how you wouldn't be able to see the Citadel arms open, and earth from where you said? The window shows we're in front of 2 closed arms and on top of Earth, and not near the ring since we can't see it. You'd only see both if you were in the tower.

I think you are overlooking something major. The back part of the Citadel contains five "claws" attached to arms which collectively retract at the same time as the ward arms and can be seen lateral to the ward arms when the arms are fully open. From Sheps perspective at the base of the Citadel tower, this would appear identical (literally identical) to the ward arms opening, because the pieces on the back are still kilometers long. At no time does he have a perspective that is parallel to the axis of rotation of the Citadel. It is always, always, always perpendicular. I think you are either overlooking that, or dont understand the scale of the Citadel and how this would influence the vista that he sees.

Alternatively, a skycam shot of the control panel room may settle this debate. Although I think you are 100% wrong about his perspective being useful to narrow his location, I DO think you are correct that he should see the Presidium ring in the distance if he was close to the base of the Citadel tower in the control room, and he would not see the ring if he was further up in the tower and subsequently "elevated" to the base of the tower by the Catalyst.

[Kabooooom]

Exactly. And that's based on the Citadel window. Earth is above, and space is below. Which is why I said, that's where he is. Based on the what we see in that window. Based on the position of Earth. And based the the arms.

Why do people keep saying it doesn't make sense, and yet don't tell me anything that makes it not make sense based on the images provided? I'm starting to think people just don't want Shepard in the tower, because someone mugged them there, and it brings back bad memories.

If you're arguing that the position doesn't match where London is, well, that the part of the Earth that image is from, so blame Bioware on that one. Though I don't see where on the Citadel Shepard arrives matter where the Citadel itself is facing.

No, I was saying your drawn out perspective of the field of vision Shep should have makes no sense because you didn't account for the fact that a) the Citadel is perpendicular to Earth and b ) the curvature of the Earth is >>>>>>>>>> the length of the Citadel. Ie: Your scale is off and the orientation of the Citadel is off and the diagram is nonsensical because of that.

[TMA LIVE]

I think you are overlooking something major. The back part of the Citadel contains five "claws" attached to arms which collectively retract at the same time as the ward arms and can be seen lateral to the ward arms when the arms are fully open. From Sheps perspective at the base of the Citadel tower, this would appear identical (literally identical) to the ward arms opening, because the pieces on the back are still kilometers long. At no time does he have a perspective that is parallel to the axis of rotation of the Citadel. It is always, always, always perpendicular. I think you are either overlooking that, or dont understand the scale of the Citadel and how this would influence the vista that he sees.

Alternatively, a skycam shot of the control panel room may settle this debate. Although I think you are 100% wrong about his perspective being useful to narrow his location, I DO think you are correct that he should see the Presidium ring in the distance if he was close to the base of the Citadel tower in the control room, and he would not see the ring if he was further up in the tower and subsequently "elevated" to the base of the tower by the Catalyst.

 

I don't think the Citadel doors are the claws, mainly because the insides of the arms are meant to be cities build on top of them. I don't think the claws have those, considering all of ME1 to 3 they've been pulled back behind that arms as the scale shows.

[Kabooooom]

I don't think the Citadel doors are the claws, mainly because the insides of the arms are meant to be cities build on top of them. I don't think the claws have those, considering all of ME1 to 3 they've been pulled back behind that arms as the scale shows.

Ah, this is a good point and it is a fact I overlooked. I agree, then. I still think your argument about perspective relative to Earth is not correct because you had a misunderstanding of the scales and angles involved, but I do think you are right that he must initially be further up in the tower. If he wasn't, his line of sight would coincide with the presidium ring AND he wouldn't have such an expansive view of the ward arms.

[TMA LIVE]

No, I was saying your drawn out perspective of the field of vision Shep should have makes no sense because you didn't account for the fact that a) the Citadel is perpendicular to Earth and b ) the curvature of the Earth is >>>>>>>>>> the length of the Citadel. Ie: Your scale is off and the orientation of the Citadel is off and the diagram is nonsensical because of that.

 

I have taken it into account the position it is from earth, based on that window. And yellow is wrong, and red gets both the arms, the position you see Earth in that window, and space at the bottom. Yellow just gets Earth and only Earth.

 

[TMA LIVE]

Ah, this is a good point and it is a fact I overlooked. I agree, then. I still think your argument about perspective relative to Earth is not correct because you had a misunderstanding of the scales and angles involved, but I do think you are right that he must initially be further up in the tower. If he wasn't, his line of sight would coincide with the presidium ring AND he wouldn't have such an expansive view of the ward arms.

 

Finally! Auggh.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying he's specifically where I marked him. I haven't really nailed that one yet. Just that he'd had to be further up in the tower and not near where the crucible docked, and more inside the Citadel, in order to see the arms.

[Kabooooom]

I have taken it into account the position it is from earth, based on that window. And yellow is wrong, and red gets both the arms, the position you see Earth in that window, and space at the bottom. Yellow just gets Earth and only Earth.

Right. We are in agreement but I am saying your thought that he could EVER have the yellow perspective is wrong. There is no point on the Citadel tower at all where he could ever have the yellow perspective due to the way it is perpendicular to the Presidium ring and due to the way that gravity within the tower is parallel to the Citadel's axis of rotation.

Unless you are trying to argue that the yellow perspective would arise from being present on the connecting arm of the tower to the Presidium...but that's kind of absurd because I don't think anyone is even arguing that in the first place as it isn't actually the Citadel tower.

I guess in my mind, the thought he could be anywhere but the tower proper (like the connecting arm) never crossed my mind because it simply doesn't make sense from a point of perspective - as you say. But it is such a basic concept that I was confused why you were bringing it up in the first place as I figured it would be intuitive to most people.

[TMA LIVE]

Right. We are in agreement but I am saying your thought that he could EVER have the yellow perspective is wrong. There is no point on the Citadel tower at all where he could ever have the yellow perspective due to the way it is perpendicular to the Presidium ring and due to the way that gravity within the tower is parallel to the Citadel's axis of rotation.

Unless you are trying to argue that the yellow perspective would arise from being present on the connecting arm of the tower to the Presidium...but that's kind of absurd because I don't think anyone is even arguing that in the first place as it isn't actually the Citadel tower.

I guess in my mind, the thought he could be anywhere but the tower proper (like the connecting arm) never crossed my mind because it simply doesn't make sense from a point of perspective - as you say. But it is such a basic concept that I was confused why you were bringing it up in the first place as I figured it would be intuitive to most people.

 

No, I never thought yellow would work. I've been arguing that entire time yellow was not where he teleported. I believed he was in the red somewhere the entire time.

[Kabooooom]

I think we were in agreement all along, but I misunderstood your position because you were arguing heavily about Shep's perspective of earth (which is irrelevant) and then brought up other irrelevant perspectives that couldn't occur (like the yellow one) unless he was in a position in the Citadel that didn't make sense in the first place.

Our misunderstanding was one of communication, I think. You could have structured your argument a bit more elegantly. It is basically these two points:

1) Shepard's perspective while in the tower and upside down is ALWAYS perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the Citadel, creating an inverted view of Earth and-

2) his position in the Citadel must be offset from the position of the Presidium ring in order to not have the ring in view and see the Citadel arms.

See? Simple. No elaborate diagrams necessary. Both statements are easily demonstrated to be factual.

[Kabooooom]

No, I never thought yellow would work. I've been arguing that entire time yellow was not where he teleported. I believed he was in the red somewhere the entire time.

Right, so why even bring it up then? Who was even arguing that in the first place? No one, as far as I can tell, because it makes no sense.

[TMA LIVE]

Right, so why even bring it up then? Who was even arguing that in the first place? No one, as far as I can tell, because it makes no sense.

 

Linkenski mainly believed Shepard was there looking from that position. Or seemed so based on the original arguments (the images keep changing).

 

I used yellow as the viewpoint Link was describing, trying to show how it couldn't work based on the window shot.