115 réponses à ce sujet

[The Arbiter]

This just complicates things alot more. Why didn't the devs think about teleporting Shep into the pressidium instead and fighting his way throught the catalyst control panel...this makes my head hurt... that mini mass relay would have worked

[von uber]

The Normandy is at least three times as big horizontally internally as externally. Vertical elevation is even worse.
Easily seen by a flycam in the docking area in me1.

[Valmar]

I don't get how it you don't think it makes sense.

 

Shepard is just sent somewhere in the tower, that's more in the middle of the Citadel (but closer to the ring), then later taken to the bottom of the tower by the Catalyst.

 

 

It doesn't make sense to me because the layout doesn't look appropriate and the height the elevator would have to lift Shepard to reach the crucible would be very significant.

[JasonShepard]

Linkenski mainly believed Shepard was there looking from that position. Or seemed so based on the original arguments (the images keep changing).

 

I used yellow as the viewpoint Link was describing, trying to show how it couldn't work based on the window shot.

 

Linkensi did indeed argue that Shepard was moving along the 'connecting arm' of the tower. But I'm pretty sure Linkensi still had gravity pointed away from Earth during that, towards the rest of the Citadel and parallel to the wards. If that's the case Shepard wouldn't see into the yellow cone, and would still see Earth above and Space below.

 

Given that Earth is above Shepard both in the decision chamber and when opening the arms, I think we can safely assume that no changes of gravity took place, and that gravity was always pointing away from Earth throughout Shepard's path on the Citadel. (I don't think either of you were arguing that gravity had been shifted, but there seemed to be some confusion between both of you.)

[JasonShepard]

Anybody got flycam for the room where Shepard opens the arms? I'd be very curious to see what things look like 'upwards' before the arms are opened... (And I agree that it's weird that we can't see the Presidium ring anywhere.)

[themikefest]

Anybody got flycam for the room where Shepard opens the arms? I'd be very curious to see what things look like 'upwards' before the arms are opened... (And I agree that it's weird that we can't see the Presidium ring anywhere.)

Found this. It might help

http://youtu.be/8B-oYRdhgCM?t=3m

[JasonShepard]

Hmm. Doesn't seem to go outside and look along the wards, which is what I was looking for. Still, informative.

[TMA LIVE]

It doesn't make sense to me because the layout doesn't look appropriate and the height the elevator would have to lift Shepard to reach the crucible would be very significant.

 

Yes, it's significant. So what? Does it really need it be 5 seconds for Shepard to be lifted from that control panel to the Crucible? Because he was passed out. He could've been out for an hour or longer. And considering how the ME1 elevator takes about 3 minutes to get us from A to B, I don't see an issue.

 

And also, the layout itself is changing. I think the issue is, since Shepard sees himself in a round canyon, you're assuming the the exterior outside needs to be round as well. But it doesn't.

[TMA LIVE]

Found this. It might help

http://youtu.be/8B-oYRdhgCM?t=3m

 

There. The Flycam proves we're in the middle of the Citadel at 14:46, because the arms surround us, even from behind.

[JasonShepard]

Am I missing something? Wouldn't the arms surround us wherever we were? Or are you saying that the Citadel Tower's connecting arm should get in the way? (Because that might be hidden behind the region that Shepard just walked through - the flycam doesn't show us behind there.)

[TMA LIVE]

Am I missing something? Wouldn't the arms surround us wherever we were? Or are you saying that the Citadel Tower's connecting arm should get in the way? (Because that might be hidden behind the region that Shepard just walked through - the flycam doesn't show us behind there.)

 

We wouldn't see the arms if we were in that yellow circle Link pointed out. We'd see the Citadel ring that connects the arms together. They'd block are view. If we did see the arms at all, we'd see the arms they're attached to, but we don't. We'd also not see the cities, we'd instead see the bare plating you see in this picture. So in order to see the citadel arms from the correct perspective, we must be further down the tower, past the ring. And then later the Catalyst moves us up to the Crucible.

 

[JasonShepard]

The fact that we can't see the Presidium ring is indeed odd. And yes, Shepard being halfway up the Citadel Tower would provide a simple explanation.

 

Okay, I'm going to think this through. I'm going to state my assumptions as I go along so we can make sure we're on the same page:

(I won't be creating any pictures because I've never really gotten the hang of posting pics to a forum, and I'm not about to start learning now...)

 

1. Gravity doesn't shift at any point throughout Priority: Citadel. The majority of the Citadel is below Shepard's feet, the 'bottom' is above his/her head. This matches with seeing Earth above us at both the Decision Chamber and at the room where we open the arms. (For simplicity, I'm going to start referring to this as TIM's room.) On a related note, I doubt that gravity is at an angle either, so 'down' for Shepard is parallel to the length of the Citadel.

 

2. The Decision Chamber is on the bottom of the Citadel Tower, where it links to the connecting arm that stretches up from the Presidium. I don't think anyone's debating this - we *see* this in the cinematics - but I figured I'd state it anyway.

 

3. The Catalyst-elevator lifts Shepard 'up', implying that the Decision Chamber is directly above TIM's room.

 

***

 

Next: The Presidium ring. Why can't we see it from TIM's room?

 

If TIM's room is on the same level as the Presidium, we should see the Presidium Ring in all 'flat' directions (ie without looking up or down). We clearly don't. So TIM's room isn't on the same level as the Presidium. (Or Bioware messed up.)

 

I'm now thinking of Shepard standing in that room, looking out and not seeing the ring. It has to be above us - note that we can see the Presidium ring in the background of the Decision Chamber. The Decision Chamber IS on the same level as the Presidium.

 

So... TIM's room is in the tower. I want to keep the elevator ride as short as possible, so I feel that the room is close to the base of the tower, and that the Presidium ring is just out of view above it. Which means I broadly agree with the first image in the OP, but I'd put TIM's room and where Shepard teleported in *much* closer to the base of the tower.

 

(I want the elevator ride to be short because, well, that isn't an ordinary elevator. Frankly, I don't like the elevator as a narrative device at all, but if it has to exist then I prefer the idea that the Catalyst improvised an elevator by just moving the platform Shepard happened to collapse onto - which works better if it's a short ride.)

 

Shepard *may* have teleported into the connecting arm, as Linkensi suggested, though that does require the connecting arm to bend slightly or to thicken as it stretches away from the Presidium ring, otherwise we would expect Shepard to be on the same level as the ring at TIM's room.

[von uber]

How's this:

 

 

Up in TIM's room points towads the back of the citadel, with down towards the arms. Therefore the lift must take you to the back of the citadel, not up the tower that goes up inbetween the arms.

 

I really don't think they gave too much thought into this.

[TMA LIVE]

I can see the plating in that picture. So we can learn how far down Shepard is from the arms. Von, when it comes to the pictures, could you please zoom out more from the same perspectives?

[Valmar]

It's possible thats as far as the camera CAN zoom out. I doubt there really is a giant 1:1 scale of the Citadel outside that room. Why add so much for a scene that will only show a fraction of it? It'd save resources and optimize the game if they cut out the parts you'll never see.

[Linkenski]

This is confusing me more than it probably should. As far as a linear path goes what Linkenski drew out makes the most sense. The layout is perfect. But then you take into account that when Shepard opens the arms your SEE the arms open around you. Where as that room directly beneath the crucible actually protrudes out away from the citadel arms. The arms would be below you, yet in the game they fully cover Shepard's view. So he must be lower down than that.

I'm not sure. The relative size difference and scope of the Citadel is so large that what we can see of the arms might actually be the end of the bottom of them convering the entire screen -- again, because the scale is so huge.

 

I think either way Bioware did pay a lot of attention to their own details here but at some point they might have come up short due to being at the end of an admittedly rushed game... if there are mistakes with locale and shepard's relativity to them then it's not completely fatal nor is it even disappointing. I'm surprised at how much of it makes sense right now. If the smaller details aren't there a 100%, I'm like "ah well" :-P

[Vazgen]

I wonder, was there any game in video game history that was analyzed with this level of detail? 

[Linkenski]

Yeah me too. I think that's what's so funny with this, and especially stuff like IT. Now I don't think this topic is at all stupid, but I keep thinking of that CleverNoobs IT documentary where he went into excruciate details about almost every single game asset he could see thinking it was IT-related when really a lot of it was just placed there to give off the right "vibe" and wasn't placed there to make everything fit together perfectly.

[GalacticWolf5]

CleverNoobs was trying way too hard to prove the Indoctrination Theory. Honestly, it was kind of pathetic. Many of his arguments didn't even work or could be used against him.

[TMA LIVE]

It's possible thats as far as the camera CAN zoom out. I doubt there really is a giant 1:1 scale of the Citadel outside that room. Why add so much for a scene that will only show a fraction of it? It'd save resources and optimize the game if they cut out the parts you'll never see.

 

Yeah, I agree. If it's not on screen, then it's suspect of just being there for the sake of being there, since no one is gonna see it.

 

Even if it did tell us anything, we only know we're just past the inner ring enough that we don't see it. And that's it. Unless we're in the ring.

 

But I don't get why you favor Links more then mine, since technically, they're both in the same building (Citadel Tower). Mine is just more down then up so we can see the arms through the window, and Links believes the Keeper hallways is the connector to the tower (which I don't).

[AlanC9]

This just complicates things alot more. Why didn't the devs think about teleporting Shep into the pressidium instead and fighting his way throught the catalyst control panel...this makes my head hurt... that mini mass relay would have worked

Well, that one's easy to answer. Bio didn't want ME3's ending to be any more of a rerun of ME1's ending than it already was.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I wonder, was there any game in video game history that was analyzed with this level of detail? 

 

Half-Life 2, maybe?

[Valmar]

Yeah, I agree. If it's not on screen, then it's suspect of just being there for the sake of being there, since no one is gonna see it.

 

Even if it did tell us anything, we only know we're just past the inner ring enough that we don't see it. And that's it. Unless we're in the ring.

 

But I don't get why you favor Links more then mine, since technically, they're both in the same building (Citadel Tower). Mine is just more down then up so we can see the arms through the window, and Links believes the Keeper hallways is the connector to the tower (which I don't).

 

It's difficult to explain, imo, without providing pictures with citations to clarify my point. I could do that but I haven't the patience - especially with the changes photobucket and imageshack have taken since the last I used them.

 

I will try, but again, I probably won't be able to do a satisfying job of explaining it.

 

You see that circular room right under where the crucible would dock? The one with the lights? That looks exactly what I would expect the TIM room would look like on the outside. It also looks like it has two floors. We see Shepard elevated up to the second floor which is the decision room. That's what it looks like to me.

 

That is why Link's picture makes so much sense to me. Teleported in, walks forward a bit, enters room, elevated up to the next floor. It all flows well, imo.

 

Your way doesn't. We don't see any place lower on the tower that looks like it could be the room Shepard was in, despite the room up top of the tower looking exactly the way I would expect it to look. You also have the elevator lifting Shepard up a very considerable distance, considering the sheer size of the citadel. That just doesn't sit well with me.

 

However as you've pointed out the outside perspective doesn't look right for this. So in that regard yours works best since it explains the view angle Shepard has from the inside.

[KrrKs]

I wonder, was there any game in video game history that was analyzed with this level of detail? 

Maybe pong...

 

Your way doesn't. We don't see any place lower on the tower that looks like it could be the room Shepard was in, despite the room up top of the tower looking exactly the way I would expect it to look. You also have the elevator lifting Shepard up a very considerable distance, considering the sheer size of the citadel. That just doesn't sit well with me.

Now I'm confused..

->As announced, I now bring in colours instead of directions, I suggest using the following instead of up/down/etc.

_{(incase copyright is not readable, I stole the image from there: http://euderion.devi...rison-433200009)}

Red for 'forward' along the axis -> corresponds to 'up' in the council chamber

Blue for 'backwards' or 'up' in the starchild conversation

Green for 'outwards' from the center, corresponds to 'forward' in pretty everywhere at the tower and 'down' in the presidium ring.

_{[inb4 RGB-endings]}

 

I'm guessing you mean in red direction as lower (?), but we don't know exactly where the TIM confrontation takes place in the tower. We only know (as I already posted) how the very tip (redside) of the tower looks from in and outside, apart from that, it is literally never covered/shown. Structures like the TIM/control room could be everywhere at the tower.

 

Slightly unrelated, concerning the Escape shuttles and Vazgen's response in the 'little things you just discovered thread':

Spoiler

Personally, I'd place the escape shuttle-bay inbetween the shepard's perspective position and the blue-backend of the tower, not on the 'bridge' to the tower.

 

 

I think it's more then just 6 tiles. Based on the distance and length, it might be a cylinder attachment, and the front of it has the choices. AKA, the choice chamber is also that cylinder attachment. With the tower blank in one shot, the cylinder lands on top of it, and attaches.

You were right, there are 8 tiles. Those could potentially form the attachment, but I still don't see it as being so.

Several pictures ahead, so I put it in a spoiler and tried to structure this a bit.

 

1st: The planks/jetties/gangways to the choices:

Spoiler

8 tiles from the underside, notice the metal planks running towards the center.

 

And from the site:

The 'jetty' (if that is the right term) that runs toward the structure in the middle of the picture seems to be part of it. These jetties(?)/planks are however way longer than the cylindrical crucible attachment would allow. They run all the way to the (green-ways) edge of the 'crucible docking platform'. Furthermore, there are additional such planks (I don't have a picture right now), which are clearly part of the citadel and do not connect to the center structure at all.

 

2nd: The tubes connecting to the citadel:

Spoiler

If the jetty is part of the citadel, how could these control tubes connect in such a way to it.

 

The destroy side is even worse:

The large destroy tube seems to connect to the citadel (it doesn't really though) in a simple way.

But the important parts here are the white tubes around. In the picture, 2 can be seen comming out of the destroy tube.

(The destroy tube, by the way, reminds me of the pumps used in the Collector base to fill human goo into the proto reaper)

These white tubes are clearly a part of the central structure, but there is a 3rd tube here -looking exactly like the other ones-, that never connects to the structure.

Instead it runs from the edge of the platform directly into the synthesis pit (the model stops halfway in).

 

In the end, there are to many details that point toward the structure being part of the citadel from the beginning (for me anyway).

I'll try to get a 3d modelling program to run by the end of the week -and produce some basic _{(very, very, basic)} pictures of how I imagine the structure to fold and produce either the crucible attachment or the coverage of the synthesis pit.

 

Edit:

[...] Why add so much for a scene that will only show a fraction of it? It'd save resources and optimize the game if they cut out the parts you'll never see.

Sometimes there are artefacts left; e.g., the entire far/small-scale model of the presidium ring is loaded at the ME3 refugee-camp/E3 -even though it can never be seen from there.

But in case of the TIM-romm, there are only 2 (afaik) Wards loaded.

Modifié par KrrKs, 02 mars 2015 - 09:02 .

[von uber]

In the top image I posted, Shep's head is nearer the back end of the citadel, her feet point towards the wards. Therefore the elevator can only take you up in the opposite direction to that which the crucible docked.