115 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yes it does... which is kind of a problem for the story.

 

What always bothered me was that each cycle could leave behind something as sophisticated as the Crucible plans without ever including a warning about the Reapers or a PDF about what it does.

[TMA LIVE]

What always bothered me was that each cycle could leave behind something as sophisticated as the Crucible plans without ever including a warning about the Reapers or a PDF about what it does.

 

Well, in some cases that's exactly what happened, like with Liara's Beacon. But the problem is is language. Unless each cycle creates a translator where the new cycle can understand it, we get what happened in ME1, where we're technically chasing Saren on his quest to find a translator (though considering the Collectors were around at that time, I'm surprised they were never used to help him figure it out).

[TMA LIVE]

I'm pretty sure that the Crucible's plans came from one source. Otherwise I can't imagine a device with additions from all kinds of species being "elegant". I also don't think that early cycles would've wasted time with making additions to its design if there was no indication of its capabilities which have to come from somewhere

 

But they did. The prothean VI and the Reaper AI both say they designs have been changed and improved over every cycle. It's a fact.

 

It does say that. I just have trouble imagining it

Scientist 1: "Well, crap, this doesn't work"

Scientist 2: "Let's put more of the stuff in the... the thing that stuff goes in."

I'm talking about early cycles, where the Crucible is far from completion and the Citadel's inclusion was not planned yet.

 

Unless there was a certain project description and outline of device's capabilities, no one would've worked on it.

 

Ok, I get this part. Yeah, I can't imagine messing with the designs enough without knowing what it does. That's like not knowing what the puzzle pieces create, so you make your own pieces.

 

However, it's possible other cycles "did" know what it does. I mean, the Protheans knew it connected with the Citadel. And they were sure it would work. They just didn't tell anyone for the next cycle to know until a certain moment. So it's really this cycle that didn't know what it does.

[TMA LIVE]

A bigger plot hole is how the original designers of each cycle expected it to work -It must have been designed from the get go to use the relay system otherwise what else would it be for?

It strains credibility that the plans would not have a drawing series titled "crucible / citadel interface coupling detail". Otherwise why else would you build the connection piece, for shits and giggles?

 

Well, my speculation is, before the designs were changed to work the the Citadel in later cycles, the original designers created the crucible to be a EMP bomb, similar to the Destroy option (I base this on what happens before the citadel fires the beam. We first get a blast that comes directly from the crucible that hits the system, and then the Citadel fires the rest at a Mass Relay). And it only worked on a star cluster, which is why that cycle ended up losing. They couldn't use it to take out every Reaper in the galaxy, or they didn't have the resources to fire it more then once. Or they couldn't finish it. Eventually, someone put in the adaption to work with the Citadel, so it could be used on the Mass Relays.

[AlanC9]

What always bothered me was that each cycle could leave behind something as sophisticated as the Crucible plans without ever including a warning about the Reapers or a PDF about what it does.

Maybe they did. My impression of the Mars sequence is that TIM got some data that Shepard didn't.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yes TIM got a bunch of data from the Mars Archives that Shepard didn't: the location of the Thessia Archives. - or did your Shadow Broker miss that one?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Maybe they did. My impression of the Mars sequence is that TIM got some data that Shepard didn't.

 

That certainly is true but I was thinking across all cycles. This gets back into issues with the whole Reaper cycle thing that existed from day one in Mass Effect but I have trouble envisioning a scenario where multiple cycles were not only able to pass on information about the Crucible but modify it as well, yet never successfully deploy it. Did everyone else create a convoluted and counter intuitive method of transferring the information like the Protheans?

[Vazgen]

But they did. The prothean VI and the Reaper AI both say they designs have been changed and improved over every cycle. It's a fact.

 

 

Ok, I get this part. Yeah, I can't imagine messing with the designs enough without knowing what it does. That's like not knowing what the puzzle pieces create, so you make your own pieces.

 

However, it's possible other cycles "did" know what it does. I mean, the Protheans knew it connected with the Citadel. And they were sure it would work. They just didn't tell anyone for the next cycle to know until a certain moment. So it's really this cycle that didn't know what it does.

That's the point. Every cycle was sure that it would work, that's why they cared enough to preserve the blueprints. There must be a reason why they believed that. A project description, a big label like "Reaper killer designed by the previous cycle" etc.

The problem is for the first few cycles, when the Crucible development was just being started. Protheans and humans got almost complete blueprints for the device. 

The Crucible's workings should have a unique idea at their core, that could've convinced all the cycles that it is the right path to follow. I don't know what that idea might be. The Citadel inclusion could've been one but we are told that it was one of the later pieces of the puzzle. 

[von uber]

Regarding passing on information, how about the revolutionary idea of a picture showing the crucible docking to the citadel.

[Vazgen]

Regarding passing on information, how about the revolutionary idea of a picture showing the crucible docking to the citadel.

That might've made everyone abandon the idea, given that the Citadel was always captured in the first hour of the war

[KrrKs]

What always bothered me was that each cycle could leave behind something as sophisticated as the Crucible plans without ever including a warning about the Reapers or a PDF about what it does.

I just imagine they did:

<Two Archaeologists searching in the rubble of civilisation #3142>

Archaeologist1: "Hey, I found this file. It says something about giant space tentacle monsters and a phallus like looking device to defeat them.

                            This is..."

Archaeologist2: "Hentai! Dammit, couldn't they preserve something useful instead!"

 

 

Well, my speculation is, before the designs were changed to work the the Citadel in later cycles, the original designers created the crucible to be a EMP bomb, similar to the Destroy option (I base this on what happens before the citadel fires the beam. We first get a blast that comes directly from the crucible that hits the system, and then the Citadel fires the rest at a Mass Relay). And it only worked on a star cluster, which is why that cycle ended up losing. They couldn't use it to take out every Reaper in the galaxy, or they didn't have the resources to fire it more then once. Or they couldn't finish it. Eventually, someone put in the adaption to work with the Citadel, so it could be used on the Mass Relays.

 

This is also what I believe (äh, believe may be the wrong word). But based on the crucibles beam, I'd say the original crucible was a single target device only (and much smaller). My speculation is that the cluster-wide effects are a result of secondary relays and the Reaper to relay connection.

(AFAIR there was a mention of a galaxywide realtime reaper position map based on relay info somewhere in ME3)

[Vazgen]

AFAIR there was a mention of a galaxywide realtime reaper position map based on relay info somewhere in ME3

Interferometric array

Normally interferometric arrays are used to analyze planetary landmasses, or to determine the astrophysical properties of stellar systems. The powerful array salvaged from the Hercules system can be used for something much more ambitious: the Crucible tunes into the mass relays' command switches. Installing the interferometric array into the Crucible's systems results in a real-time map of the entire galaxy, including the position of each and every Reaper in the Milky Way.

 

It is optional though

[themikefest]

Speculation

 

"You do not know them, and there's not enough time to explain."

 

I believe we do know them. The Keepers. Why is that line said by the catalyst? Because the game is for new players. Nothing is ever mentioned in the game about the keepers. The only way to know about the keepers is through the codex in the game. In ME1, a side mission is available to scan the keepers. This is given by the salarian Chorban. Once the keepers are scanned, the information is sent to him. In ME2 he sends an email

 

Its hard to say how long the keepers have been around, but I believe they are the one's that created the plans. They know the Citadel inside and out. They may even know it better than the reapers themselves.

 

When talking with Leviathan, it says the "intelligence" directed the reapers to build the relays. I would guess during this time, the keepers first made their appearance to maintain the Citadel. Heck they may of help build the Citadel. Over time they were able to come up with a way to use the Citadel and relays to destroy the reapers. They just needed a power source big enough to use. I'm not sure how the plans get discovered for the first time to build the device. Maybe a species discovered them when they discovered the Citadel. Don't know.

 

The weapon that TIM talks about in ME2 that created the Great Rift and killed the reaper carrying the reaper IFF, was I believe a very early version of the Crucible. I might be wrong about that. I also believe if every single reaper was in line when that weapon was fired, all reapers would be destroyed. If only it was that simple.

 

When talking with Vendetta, it says that past cycles have added to the plans. Maybe each cycle added something that made the device more efficient. How would they know if its never been tested?  Who knows? Or maybe each cycle added an extra nut and bolt. If I had to guess what this cycle added, it would be the reaper brain/heart from ME2.

 

The first set of plans by the keepers would probably work, but the species that tried to build it was sabotaged from within just like the Protheans during their cycle. So they did the next best thing and hid the plans for future civilizations to discover.

 

Vendetta does say his species was sabotaged from within by a group wanting to control the reapers. What if the control option was added long before the Protheans existed and a group did add that to the plans? When the next civilization find the plans, they wouldn't know, so they start building and adding to the device. What if Synthesis was added in the same way? A group wanted to be friends with the machines and added the components to the device. The next civilization finds the plans and builds the device without knowing the outcome or outcomes.

 

Had the relays been operational during the Prothean cycle like in ours, I believe they would've used it and succeeded in defeating the reapers.

 

The other thing I'm curious about the Crucible is the ramps leading to the destroy and control ending. Were the ramps part of the Crucible or part of the Citadel? As soon as the catalyst finishes talking, the ramps are raised. I would guess the catalyst did that and since its part of the Citadel the ramps are part of the citadel. I don't know.

 

Again all this is speculation on my part.

[TMA LIVE]

That's the point. Every cycle was sure that it would work, that's why they cared enough to preserve the blueprints. There must be a reason why they believed that. A project description, a big label like "Reaper killer designed by the previous cycle" etc.

The problem is for the first few cycles, when the Crucible development was just being started. Protheans and humans got almost complete blueprints for the device. 

The Crucible's workings should have a unique idea at their core, that could've convinced all the cycles that it is the right path to follow. I don't know what that idea might be. The Citadel inclusion could've been one but we are told that it was one of the later pieces of the puzzle. 

 

Well, we were the cycle that didn't get the complete plans. The Protheans were kind of dicks about that, where we only got half, unless you convince the Prothean VI.

 

Also, keep in mind, the blue prints could never say "Reaper Killer Device". If it did, the Reapers would go "Oh look. Reaper Killer device. Delete". You gotta remember that these plans are meant to be hidden from the Reapers themselves during their cleanup at the end of a cycle. It's kind of a catch22. You have to hide the plans in a way that the Reapers, who have 50,000 years to find theses plans, never find them. And yet you want the next cycle to find them before the Reaper invasion, which should be impossible, because millions of machine monsters never found them.

[KrrKs]

So, here come the promised structure pictures. (Quiet a lot)

_{Be prepared, the only thing I suck more at than modelling is texturing}

 

Base structure, as seen in the starchild convo and the primitive model:

Spoiler

original:

Spoiler

 

My approximation:

Spoiler

The red and blue parts are approximations for the destroy tube and the control system. I believe the purple gangways can stretch and/or fold to a certain degree.

The green(er) support pillars should be tilt-able/rotate-able outwards, for the whole structure to fold. The tori are also basically support structures, holding the whole thing together.

Actually only the outer most torus should be called that way, but for the sake of simplicity I modelled them all as such.

The scales and angles are a bit of, but I believe it is not by too much. I omitted the pipes coming out of the destroy tube. They don't add anything important -also gmax's pathdeform tool hates me.

 

The entire structure folded, in an attempt to build the Crucible's pin/extension.

Spoiler

I tried to overlay it to the previous picture, as it gives a sense of scale and incorporates the tips of the crucible.

I had to reduce the size of the whole model considerably to bring it near the required size. Notice that in this picture, the entire folded structure is about as wide as one of the original triangular tiles.

So, even though my model was partially oversized, i don't think this could work.

 

Anyway, in this picture, as overlay over the pin, it works out pretty well.

Additional remarks:

In the post by dreamgazer this is based on, the folded structure has every second tile reversed to fit. After looking at the model, I don't think it could fold up in this way.

The way I have it fold now leaves certain problems:

1. The folded structure has gaps in it. As the triangular tiles are wider than the 'gangways', I see is no way for this to not be the case.


2. To get the structure to fold this tight at all, the tori have to be deformed more than I think is possible. While the outer 2 tori could be telescoping, the innermost torus only has a gab where the entrance to the synthesis pit is. It should not be more scalable than ~10%, while here the radius was reduced by more than 25%.


3. As already stated, the whole structure folded that way should have a larger diameter than the crucible connector allegedly holding it.

 

Now the version I favour: The tiles retracting to form the floor.

Spoiler

I coloured the innermost torus yellow. In this version it just floats in the air, without any connection to another structure part when retracted.

This originally bother me, until I noticed that even the original model seems to have the structure just float in the air.

Proof

 

Overlay to the structure. The Idea is that the purple gangways retract into the station as they fold down. The support pillars tilt outwards simultaneously and the triangular tiles come down.

Surprisingly for me, these variant incorporates pretty much the same problems as the previous one:

1. The retracted tiles don't close tight. This may be only a minor problem, as we've seen floor pieces come out of 'nowhere' after the starchild conversation. Edit: It still bothers me, though.


2. The support tori have to be stretched way more than I initially thought. If we assume that they are telescoping the problem is solved for both folding variants.


3.  The innermost torus is just floating in the air in this setup. But even the original model suffers from this error, so I'd vote for calling it a 'feature'.

 

Disregarding a design oversight by BW -

The dongle/pin is much smaller than the 'firing chamber'. I imagine that it is some sort of security pin that gets retracted into the firing chamber to allow its activation.

Judging from the diameters it should fit.

 

So that's it,enough boxes for this week month

 

Edit:

Added some missing words, I hope this makes more sense now.

I forgot to state that the game-models 'gangways'/purple boxes are longer than I modelled them. If they are supposed to belong to the Crucible, they also could be telescoping somehow -I guess.

Modifié par KrrKs, 09 mars 2015 - 02:19 .

[shepskisaac]

Eventually, someone put in the adaption to work with the Citadel, so it could be used on the Mass Relays.

 

They didn't really do it just because of insufficient power, the did it to reprogram the Intelligence