88 réponses à ce sujet

[GalacticWolf5]

The arms are closed and then a moment later, the blue beam of magic is seen
http://youtu.be/jhVhBz4ANj4?t=4m15s

The beam is fired before the arms close. Shepard must have closed them right after the beam was fired.

[themikefest]

The beam is fired before the arms close. Shepard must have closed them right after the beam was fired.

Why not show it being fired like synthesis and destroy?

[JasonShepard]

There isn't a beam in Control.

 

In Destroy and Synthesis, a beam fires off from the Citadel to the mass relay, and starts travelling throughout the network.

 

In Control, instead the spherical blue Control-wave reaches the mass relay, which converts it into a beam and distributes it throughout the network. (4.29 in themikefest's linked video).

 

Or at least, that's how I interpret what's shown.

[Bardox9]

Control doesn't have a "beam" from the Citadel. It is released as a steady wave. It doesn't get turned into a Beam until it hits the Relay.

[GalacticWolf5]

Why not show it being fired like synthesis and destroy?

I dont know, they work differently I guess. Destroy and Synthesis send a wave of energy and then shoot the beam directly at the Charon Realy. In Control, it's just a wave of energy and the wave reaches the Charon Relay and from there it's dispersed everywhere else.

Edit: Oh well, two people already answered.

[Kabooooom]

He would have been interogated he is not solid snake or sam fisher that is why he attempted to capture the citadel earlier but failed. I still have no explanation how he gain control single handely... maybe the indoctrinated refugees made sense but that would trigger a final battle which unfortunately I did not experience and I was expecting it

Not everything has to happen on screen. Also, as someone else pointed out, the Citadel was probably full of indoctrinated sleeper agents literally every time you visited it in the game.

Whoops. Should have paid more attention to that one creepy dude in the refugee barracks. Did you think the reapers were just letting them all gather there out of the goodness of their heart? Maybe they thought they would win some sort of award for their philanthropy?

What's hilarious is that Javik spells this out for you during the game and Shep has basically no response. Dense, that one.

[The Arbiter]

Not everything has to happen on screen. Also, as someone else pointed out, the Citadel was probably full of indoctrinated sleeper agents literally every time you visited it in the game.

Whoops. Should have paid more attention to that one creepy dude in the refugee barracks. Did you think the reapers were just letting them all gather there out of the goodness of their heart? Maybe they thought they would win some sort of award for their philanthropy?

What's hilarious is that Javik spells this out for you during the game and Shep has basically no response. Dense, that one.

That's precisely the point. The people in c-sec, mercs, civilians everyone knew what's coming and in some point it won't be cerberus that would infiltrate them... that's why I gave spectre authorization for surveillance, that's why I gave geth defense technology, that's why I organized a militia. Before Jane Shepard went up the Citadel to have a tea party with Anderson and TIM I was expecting "a battle in the citadel must be unfolding people are trap or trying to escape or trying to regain control of the citadel" then I expected shep might need to organize another suicide mission with every squad from ME1xand ME2 but... all I got was a tea party with a pretty view in the citadel. Wasted potential for different endings it would have been a mixture of me1 (citadel battle against sovereign) Me2 suicide mission and ME3's unique ending choosing destroy triggers an alarm for you and your crew and the inhabitants/survivors to get the hell out while you placed a bomb or radioed hacket to blow it up, synthesis might force you to kill team members who disagrees with you and control might even get everyone killed if they disagree with you. 

 

Anyway as what is pointed above... or what Miranda has stated... ~Nobody's perfect.

 

I just find it hard to believe for TIM to just waltz right in there more so nobody inside the citadel mounting a resistance against the reapers they just vanished off screen.

 

Come to think of it even the crusible which is new to the ME universe is also somewhat confusing. Early in the game if my nemory serves me right Liara told shep that the protheans where unable to deploy it immediately because they run out of time... and in ME 1 that VI in Ilos told shep that Reaper spies where sent to gather data on the protheans and gained access to all of their plans as well as data... question is why didn't the catalyst took control of the citadel as early as the prothean age nor search and destroy the crucible? O.0

 

Shep didn't even bother warning everyone that the citadel is reaper tech

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

In ME1 you could shoot grenades at people on the Citadel and it wouldnt do anything. Are you saying Shepard was indoctrinated in ME1? Seriously the Keeper argument is just stupid, that kind of thing happened in all three games.

The arms are open in the Control ending... they open in all endings.

 

No, the keeper argument is not stupid. In other video games you can shoot things and they break, people die when you shoot them, that kind of stuff. It broke my suspension of disbelief in that scene. 1) I was wondering how Anderson got up there when everyone was supposed to be dead. Killing the keepers might have shown me that I was still alive and not in some kind of pre-death dream. 2) I was carrying a Black Widow and Kassa Locust when I went up to the beam. Now I had a Carnifex. Was I in some kind of dream? I needed to kill something.

 

My bullets affected nothing in the environment. I figured out that this was because Saren had "boss bullets" and I had "wuss bullets". Later I learned about the "cutscene incompetence" trope.

 

@imran911 - Shepard suffers from dumb ass trope. "I thought asari needed other species to reproduce." Remember that? That line never gets old.

[GalacticWolf5]

No, the keeper argument is not stupid.

 

Yes it is. Like many other IT arguments.

 

In other video games you can shoot things and they break, people die when you shoot them, that kind of stuff. It broke my suspension of disbelief in that scene. [...] Killing the keepers might have shown me that I was still alive and not in some kind of pre-death dream.

 

How come people on the Citadel, Noveria or wherever else don't die when you shoot them or use grenades on them? They don't even move or react. Is the whole Trilogy a dream? How come bullet holes I make in the walls dissappear after a couple seconds? How come sometimes I shoot civilians and the bullets go through them? Is everything a lie? Am I alive?

 

I was carrying a Black Widow and Kassa Locust when I went up to the beam. Now I had a Carnifex. Was I in some kind of dream? I needed to kill something.

 

It happens through out the whole Trilogy. Sometimes in cutscenes Shepard uses a gun he doesn't even have on him. Also, in the Arrival DLC, Shepard gives a pistol to Dr. Kenson, where does that gun come from? In the beginning of ME3, Anderson suddently has a pistol on his side and gives it to Shepard, he also somehow has another pistol. Where did these come from? Is everything a dream? 0.0

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Because in ME1 that wasn't important while wandering around Noveria. They could have done it and had ERCS come after you like the cops in GTA or a Bethesda Game, but they didn't because it wasn't important, and Shepard have to appear before the Council and pay a fine, but that would have required extra scripting. It would have demonstrated to players that Shepard can't be a complete ass hat and get away with murder.

 

However, during the ending sequence suspension of disbelief was very important. It was a lot different than wandering around Noveria. Look, you can defend Bioware all you want. There are tons of ass pulls and plot holes in this story. I still maintain that if they had not tried to get fancy with the ending and given us something that would have satisfied 80% of the people who finished the game, we wouldn't be going back looking for all these holes in the story to this date. Instead they gave us what at best can be described as a "controversial ending" and at worst can be described as a trainwreck, so here we are.

[AlanC9]

I remember when saying that people were applying a different standard to the ME3 ending than they do to other games got you branded as a condescending, arrogant pro-ender, or some such.

Welcome to the dark side, sj.

[Kabooooom]

That's precisely the point. The people in c-sec, mercs, civilians everyone knew what's coming and in some point it won't be cerberus that would infiltrate them... that's why I gave spectre authorization for surveillance, that's why I gave geth defense technology, that's why I organized a militia. Before Jane Shepard went up the Citadel to have a tea party with Anderson and TIM I was expecting "a battle in the citadel must be unfolding people are trap or trying to escape or trying to regain control of the citadel" then I expected shep might need to organize another suicide mission with every squad from ME1xand ME2 but... all I got was a tea party with a pretty view in the citadel. Wasted potential for different endings it would have been a mixture of me1 (citadel battle against sovereign) Me2 suicide mission and ME3's unique ending choosing destroy triggers an alarm for you and your crew and the inhabitants/survivors to get the hell out while you placed a bomb or radioed hacket to blow it up, synthesis might force you to kill team members who disagrees with you and control might even get everyone killed if they disagree with you.

Anyway as what is pointed above... or what Miranda has stated... ~Nobody's perfect.

I just find it hard to believe for TIM to just waltz right in there more so nobody inside the citadel mounting a resistance against the reapers they just vanished off screen.

Come to think of it even the crusible which is new to the ME universe is also somewhat confusing. Early in the game if my nemory serves me right Liara told shep that the protheans where unable to deploy it immediately because they run out of time... and in ME 1 that VI in Ilos told shep that Reaper spies where sent to gather data on the protheans and gained access to all of their plans as well as data... question is why didn't the catalyst took control of the citadel as early as the prothean age nor search and destroy the crucible? O.0

Shep didn't even bother warning everyone that the citadel is reaper tech

Wait...what? A) Shepard DID warn everyone that the Citadel was a trap. Repeatedly.

B ) the Reapers didn't take the Citadel from the start because they wouldn't have had a surprise attack, the Citadel would have known they were coming by HOURS and closed the arms. I have made this argument many times in these forums, most recently in the thread dedicated to this subject. You should read it if you want more details.

C) you wanted the Reapers to find and destroy the Crucible? Do you have any idea how big space is? The thing was probably sitting somewhere in the middle of interstellar space, it would be impossible to find without tracking allied ships to it. And, undoubtedly, all efforts were made to hide the location. There was no way the reapers were going to find the Crucible that easily.

[The Arbiter]

Wait...what? A) Shepard DID warn everyone that the Citadel was a trap. Repeatedly.

B ) the Reapers didn't take the Citadel from the start because they wouldn't have had a surprise attack, the Citadel would have known they were coming by HOURS and closed the arms. I have made this argument many times in these forums, most recently in the thread dedicated to this subject. You should read it if you want more details.

C) you wanted the Reapers to find and destroy the Crucible? Do you have any idea how big space is? The thing was probably sitting somewhere in the middle of interstellar space, it would be impossible to find without tracking allied ships to it. And, undoubtedly, all efforts were made to hide the location. There was no way the reapers were going to find the Crucible that easily.

Thanks for the reply.

 

Hmm Shepard may have warned everyone my memory mist be failing. Anyway more reason for TIM having a hard time trying to enter the citadel yet anyone. Funny since Tali spends 3 hours being questioned by c-sec outside the citadel while TIM just waltz right in at the height of the reaper war

 

With regards to B... why the hell would the reapers want a surprisecattack? They already did it in ME1. After failing they should have just Blitzkrieg it.

 

C - now this is interesting. Liara, the wiki and ME1 did point out about the protheans and how they altered the keepers and fought the reapers just went out of time. The Reapers had sll the time in the world to destroy the crucible they even patiently waited for centuries to wipe out the protheans. Surely they knew the location of the crucible since they infiltrated the protheans ling ago hence the collectors

[Kabooooom]

Thanks for the reply.

Hmm Shepard may have warned everyone my memory mist be failing. Anyway more reason for TIM having a hard time trying to enter the citadel yet anyone. Funny since Tali spends 3 hours being questioned by c-sec outside the citadel while TIM just waltz right in at the height of the reaper war

With regards to B... why the hell would the reapers want a surprisecattack? They already did it in ME1. After failing they should have just Blitzkrieg it.

C - now this is interesting. Liara, the wiki and ME1 did point out about the protheans and how they altered the keepers and fought the reapers just went out of time. The Reapers had sll the time in the world to destroy the crucible they even patiently waited for centuries to wipe out the protheans. Surely they knew the location of the crucible since they infiltrated the protheans ling ago hence the collectors

I think you are confused on several things. I'll start with the last bit first. The Reapers didn't "patiently wait" to exterminate the Protheans. They actively exterminated them. Two hundred years is how long it took to exterminate their galactic civilization, planet by planet. I'm not sure why you thought they waited.

Now, to address why the Reapers would need a surprise attack - I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding here. Once the Citadel arms close, the Citadel is impenetrable. Even, presumably, to the Reapers. This is WHY Sovereign needed a surprise attack. He needed to simultaneously attack the Citadel from the inside AND from the outside, and even then he still barely made it. If he hadn't, the arms would have closed before he could make it inside.

And this is a critically important strategic fact because relay network travel is NOT instantaneous. A single relay to relay jump is, for the most part, instantaneous - but it takes time to travel from one relay to another within a given system that has multiple relays. Thus, it takes approximately fifteen hours to reach the Citadel from Eden Prime. It takes hours to traverse large expanses of the network. For gameplay purposes, this time lag is not shown and thus is overlooked by even those players who are greatly familiar with the lore.

So the reason the reapers didn't take the Citadel by a blitzkrieg attack is not because they tried and failed, it's because it wouldn't work because they could no longer have a surprise attack. Actually, they tried and failed TWICE. The second time was the Alpha relay. Their intention was to use it to jump directly to the Serpent Nebula and thus launch a surprise attack so the Citadel inhabitants wouldn't have time to close the arms.

So, they actually DID try to do what you propose, but with the alpha relay destroyed they had to traverse the relay network. Which takes time. And a fleet that big would be easily noticed as it approaches heavily populated systems in Council space en route to the Serpent Nebula. Thus, the Citadel would have major advance notice and the arms would close. Hell, even Earth knew "something big" was coming by a considerable timeframe, they just had no defense.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Hmm Shepard may have warned everyone my memory mist be failing. Anyway more reason for TIM having a hard time trying to enter the citadel yet anyone. Funny since Tali spends 3 hours being questioned by c-sec outside the citadel while TIM just waltz right in at the height of the reaper war

 

With regards to B... why the hell would the reapers want a surprisecattack? They already did it in ME1. After failing they should have just Blitzkrieg it.

 

C - now this is interesting. Liara, the wiki and ME1 did point out about the protheans and how they altered the keepers and fought the reapers just went out of time. The Reapers had sll the time in the world to destroy the crucible they even patiently waited for centuries to wipe out the protheans. Surely they knew the location of the crucible since they infiltrated the protheans ling ago hence the collectors

 

 

The real reason for why they didn't just take over The Citadel in the beginning of the game? It would have been a very short game. "Shepard, the reapers have arrived. Shepard get to the Citadel. Wait, forget the Citadel. The reapers took it over and locked all the relays. We're screwed."

 

The End.

[The Arbiter]

The real reason for why they didn't just take over The Citadel in the beginning of the game? It would have been a very short game. "Shepard, the reapers have arrived. Shepard get to the Citadel. Wait, forget the Citadel. The reapers took it over and locked all the relays. We're screwed."

 

The End.

That wouldn't be such a bad thing but would be hilarious xD maybe the whole game would then focus on regaining control over the citadel or going planet hopping like we always do trying to fight the reapers. Citadel reminds me about the Halo rings including its purpose well atleast chief got out alive

[Jukaga]

What is really weird in the final TiM confrontation scene is the background. The Wards look like they are still operating as normal. You see all the lights on, traffic moving along the skyways. I can imagine the people down there thinking, 'WTH is going on? Whatever, as long as I can hit up the Fish Dog Food Shack before work.' as they drive their skycars.

[The Arbiter]

What is really weird in the final TiM confrontation scene is the background. The Wards look like they are still operating as normal. You see all the lights on, traffic moving along the skyways. I can imagine the people down there thinking, 'WTH is going on? Whatever, as long as I can hit up the Fish Dog Food Shack before work.' as they drive their skycars.

yeah I noticed that too. That's why I said to myself wat? c-sec would have been trying to find the master control unit shown here in ME which is inside the Citadel Tower and would fight their way through problem is the catalyst is on the roof of this area a good discussion about this is in this thread: http://forum.bioware...d-the-crusible/

 

here is the control unit of the "ARMS OF THE CITADEL"

 

[The Arbiter]

I think you are confused on several things. I'll start with the last bit first. The Reapers didn't "patiently wait" to exterminate the Protheans. They actively exterminated them. Two hundred years is how long it took to exterminate their galactic civilization, planet by planet. I'm not sure why you thought they waited.

Now, to address why the Reapers would need a surprise attack - I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding here. Once the Citadel arms close, the Citadel is impenetrable. Even, presumably, to the Reapers. This is WHY Sovereign needed a surprise attack. He needed to simultaneously attack the Citadel from the inside AND from the outside, and even then he still barely made it. If he hadn't, the arms would have closed before he could make it inside.

And this is a critically important strategic fact because relay network travel is NOT instantaneous. A single relay to relay jump is, for the most part, instantaneous - but it takes time to travel from one relay to another within a given system that has multiple relays. Thus, it takes approximately fifteen hours to reach the Citadel from Eden Prime. It takes hours to traverse large expanses of the network. For gameplay purposes, this time lag is not shown and thus is overlooked by even those players who are greatly familiar with the lore.

So the reason the reapers didn't take the Citadel by a blitzkrieg attack is not because they tried and failed, it's because it wouldn't work because they could no longer have a surprise attack. Actually, they tried and failed TWICE. The second time was the Alpha relay. Their intention was to use it to jump directly to the Serpent Nebula and thus launch a surprise attack so the Citadel inhabitants wouldn't have time to close the arms.

So, they actually DID try to do what you propose, but with the alpha relay destroyed they had to traverse the relay network. Which takes time. And a fleet that big would be easily noticed as it approaches heavily populated systems in Council space en route to the Serpent Nebula. Thus, the Citadel would have major advance notice and the arms would close. Hell, even Earth knew "something big" was coming by a considerable timeframe, they just had no defense.

Ilos protheans in cyrogenic sleep underground... reapers waited for them until the powers drained. You do have a point the reapers did fail multiple times with attacks and lost the element of surprise which means everyone in the Citadel was putting up a good fight... then how come going back into my main issue TIM just waltz right in and beat the Reapers to it? even attempting to control the reapers himself with ease the first organic life to step foot near the catalyst? was it because he was indoctrinated he knew the location?

 

"Video logs found on the station show that the Illusive Man allowed himself to be implanted with Reaper-derived nanotechnology, with no anesthetic. He also refused to allow Leng to kill Shepard, whom he doesn't want to write off as a total loss yet. He also reveals that, while he does consider Shepard to be his enemy, he still has a great deal of respect for the Commander and warns Kai Leng to show the same respect."

 

Hence his face:

 

 

I wonder how he waltz right in with those implants... c-sec must be blind

 

the main issue here is not the reapers, not shepard, not the ending, but how THE ILLUSIVE MAN single handedly took over the Citadel or just "went there" without anyone noticing his big bugger in his face and nobody responding about the "movements" or possible "lost of control with the citadel because of the catalyst"

 

then... the tea party with Anderson starts.

[wright1978]

The Reapers balanced it on their noses like a bunch of trained seals.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Plot holes, plot holes, everywhere,

Be careful where you step.

[dorktainian]

There isn't a beam in Control.

 

In Destroy and Synthesis, a beam fires off from the Citadel to the mass relay, and starts travelling throughout the network.

 

In Control, instead the spherical blue Control-wave reaches the mass relay, which converts it into a beam and distributes it throughout the network. (4.29 in themikefest's linked video).

 

Or at least, that's how I interpret what's shown.

Really?

 

I interpret the closing of the Citadel in the Control ending the creation of a new reaper..... just what the reapers wanted.  The Blue signal sent to the relays to acknowledge the newly created reaper.

 

I prefer to think Shepard is just buried under the rubble because he made the right choice. Any other choices and Shepard is dead.

[The Arbiter]

Plot holes, plot holes, everywhere,

Be careful where you step.

Catalyst. THE WORST VILLAIN IN VIDEO GAME HISTORY... Hacket: Shepard the Crucible is docked fire the trigger! Shepard: IT WON'T I HAVE NO IDEA WHY!!!

 

*Catalyst brings Shepard to the roof revealing it's "EVIL LAIR" and then Catalyst: Hello organic do you want to know how to control the reapers, combine organic with synthetics or destroy me and my reapers altogether?

 

[Linkenski]

The Catalyst is not a villain. He reveals that the Reapers are actually less sapient than we thought.

[JasonShepard]

The Catalyst is not a villain. He reveals that the Reapers are actually less sapient than we thought.

 

At the very least, he reveals (or heavily implies) that the Reapers are themselves indoctrinated. Which... makes sense, considering that they do have organic components.