62 réponses à ce sujet

[DanteYoda]

is she insane? Why she would go to close quartes against a templar? And why she want to stab someone with plate armor ?

Because shes/hes a rogue not a mage..

 

 

What about Dalish or Warden Mages .... yep dead Templars..

[Eliastion]

(...)

What about Dalish or Warden Mages .... yep dead Templars..

Dalish mages would be another story. First of all, they (generally) have less combat focus AND they are not alone. They would be likely support/healers rather than the people doing most of the fighting, especially against Templars.

[TheKomandorShepard]

What's ridiculous is that you can't grasp the simple concept that if Templars outnumbered mages in Kirkwall more than they do normally, that changes thing. Let me give you an example:

We have ants and beetles (not very large beetles) that go to war. There are twice as many ants as there are beetles. And we see that three ants managed to defeat a beetle. Does that mean that beetles will quickly lose? Answer for the mathematically impaired: no, our best extrapolation would be "if there were three times as many ants as beetles, the ants should easily win". But there is only twice as many ants, so the example we had is inconclusive. NOW do you understand? I don't think I can explain it any simpler.

 

And as for rapists, that's not it. By your own example - you say that there would be loads of rapists everywhere if not for omnipresent police. Your fellacy is ignoring the fact that vast majority of people are not rapists for reasons other than constant oversight AND any possibility of peer oversight without dedicated institution. Basically, the one place that would indeed seem more realistic with some blood magic mixed in would be the extremist mages camp in Hinterlands - but that's the only place. Maybe also Venatori, for different reasons.

 

Ridciculus is that you keep grabing argument about templars outnumbering mages to use it in kirkwall and then dismiss it in war where in fact mages face almost whole templar order in thedas while mages are pretty much extremely divided on whole war thing .

 

And another ridiculous comparison if ants proved to be able completly crush another many times i think we can see pattern your argument was like compare that to American drunk vs Russian drunk and if russian drunk beats american you say that doesn't mean that Russia can beat America what is obvious and nowhere near facts i was going by fact that they have far superior army and supported that by examples and logic.

 

There would be as there would be much more criminals this is simple fact and logic and reason why there are laws and those who enforce them.Fact is that numbers of rapist and criminal over all would be way larger without law-enforcers and that comparing that claim that somone said that all people would be rapists if law-enforcers would be gone is ridiculous.And no because mages fight for freedom as i said doesn't mean they are paragon of goodness when series shown that various mages circle or not fall to blood magic for various reasons.

 

 

 

Element of suprise my dear Watson (and plot). Then again a Tevinter battle mage whom has honed his/hers skills against the qunari for years is a different thing to face than one of the southern circle rats whom barely have been thought to control their own power. 

It seems not rly considering that they were demolished even blood magic isn't exclusive to tevinter mages as templar face them anyway.Suprise or not they couldn't handle templars and for certain that wasn't an ambush as they were protectors and mages were attacking part.

    

[Eliastion]

Ok, since my beetle-ant war analogy was unable to make you understand that someone can be outnumbered by smaller or larger margin and it makes adifference, I give up. Either you're unable to grasp this oh so extremely advanced concept or I suck at explanations, either way it's a lost case.

[Uccio]

It seems not rly considering that they were demolished even blood magic isn't exclusive to tevinter mages as templar face them anyway.Suprise or not they couldn't handle templars and for certain that wasn't an ambush as they were protectors and mages were attacking part.

 

Well if you go into a knife fight and suddenly face hand guns there sure is going to be a element of surprise present. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ok, since my beetle-ant war analogy was unable to make you understand that someone can be outnumbered by smaller or larger margin and it makes adifference, I give up. Either you're unable to grasp this oh so extremely advanced concept or I suck at explanations, either way it's a lost case.

What was in case both examples that i have pointed and that i originally refered to and i keep saying that and you keep ingoring that so fault isn't on my side.

 

 

Well if you go into a knife fight and suddenly face hand guns there sure is going to be a element of surprise present. 

In first place if you were fighting with knife pretty much you are screwd no matter if you are suprised or not by fact your opponent have gun unless you have element of suprise on your side and by element of suprise i mean kill guy from behind. 

[Excella Gionne]

I have a game about Templars vs Mages, and another about Templars vs Assassins. :-\

[Lumix19]

And what does that have to anything Meredith could be powerful in fact she was while Evangeline was strong but far from best and on other hand cairn didn't look like master of templars.I have asked you to provide source that not all templars can drain mana or prevent mages from casting and only strong one can do pointing that those templars were strong does noting to me and that codex entry points nothing beyond fact that templars dispeled their magic as far i tried look on that and i found nothing.

What you are talking about it almost had nothing to do with i have said and what you have said in previous commentary and you pointed argument about templar being portrayed as counter to mages what wasn't even thing i argued about. As far i provided examples how all battles between templars and mages went with templars as winners with some losses but always crushed mages so in fact it isn't war that should last long because well templars being templars i hope i don't have to explain that again and conditions of that war were templars had an advantage in almost every field.

Evangeline may not have been the best but she would have had to have been quite powerful to be chosen as bodyguard for the Divine. Also why are you bringing up Cairn? He died when Saarebas shot a lightning bolt at him, hardly an excellent example of the power of Templars over mages.

What I got out of that note that I mentioned is that the Templars were able to dampen the magic but only collectively, note "there were enough of them", with the clear implication being that individually the Templars were only able to dampen the magic slightly. What I took away from that is that an average Templar can only dampen the magic of a mage, as in make it weaker but not outright nullify it.

If you'll recall the attack of the Templars in the White Spire they collectively used their powers to nullify, hence the mages become weaker "others were being overwhelmed, their mana disrupted until they couldn't cast a single spell". Hence it seems to me that the average Templar cannot completely drain a mage's mana and prevent them from casting, they can take a bit of mana and collectively they can take all of it. In fact Evangeline didn't seem to take all of Jeannot's power she only disrupted the spell - "as the blade struck him she channeled it forth...there was a bright flash as the mage's flow of mana was disrupted, his flames guttering to a halt" - he only turned to blood magic because it was more powerful and she could barely defend against it - "Evangeline felt the wave of force hitting her before she reached him. She attempted to raise her aura of protection, but the magic shattered it as if it were thin glass".

Thus it seems to me that a single Templar is not able to render a mage powerless. They can disrupt spells if they get close (possibly if they strike the mage), they can dampen the magic and take away some mana but it's only because there are so many Templars that they are a threat, that is what I'm trying to convey here.

Also my previous point was about a perceived inconsistency. You seemed to claim that it was inconsistent that the Templar-Mage war wasn't shorter and that blood magic and abominations were not prevalent. I was stating that there is no inconsistency and that you shouldn't claim there is one because it doesn't fit into your idealised version of what Templars are. But if you didn't get it from my previous post I don't think i can explain it any better.

Templars do have an advantage, they have greater numbers, military discipline and powers that can disrupt and weaken mages. However I do not see that meaning that they should crush mages within a few weeks. Templar powers have their limitations and mages are not weak, even when countered by Templars.

Wut it was shown in universe that templars overpower mages and that were my examples for and statement don't have any sense templars are watched to specifically over mages for that reason it happens and pretty much their goal is to reduce numbers of an abomnations thus in fact not only abomnations will happen but also number of abomnations will raise as mages will be unwatched as crime rates would raise if laws and law-enforcers don't watch over people.

What does that have to anything crimes happen even in most safe cities remove law-enforcers that in first place caused city to be safe and crime ratings will drastically raise as there won't be fear of consequences from doing something. Same here templars are pretty much law-enforcers for mages. And i didn't reject writers they did that themselves with rejecting their previous works.

Templars have no effect on whether abominations form except possibly making them more likely to form out of fear and resentment. They're only there so it doesn't get loose onto the countryside and cause immense damage. Mages are the ones who make the decision whether to allow a demon to possess them, Templars have no influence over that. Your analogy about crime is not a valid one, crime is something you want to do since you often get something out of it (revenge, money etc.) becoming an abomination is not something mages want to do.

Now if you mean whether the Templars prevent blood magic that is a different issue. It's possible they do. But that's assuming that many mages want to use blood magic in the first place. Nowhere is it stated in previous works that blood magic is something every mage desires. It is powerful yes, but many mages hate blood magic because of what the Chantry teaches. Indeed if the rebel mages started using blood magic who would support them? Blood magic has been shown to be something almost all of Thedas publicly denounces. Hence your rejection of the writers is both arrogant (assuming you know better than the writers who created the world of DA) and incorrect since there is no contradiction with their previous work.

[MisterJB]

If we see a mage's spell being disrupted by a Templar and then that mage resorts to blood magic, the implication there seems to be that regular magic was no longer available to him. Not sure on what grounds we can claim for sure he was still capable of casting mana-based spells.

 

Also, there were multiple mages in that confrontation, all of them on the level of First Enchanters.

[Eliastion]

What was in case both examples that i have pointed and that i originally refered to and i keep saying that and you keep ingoring that so fault isn't on my side.

Every response you give just proves that you fail to grasp the difference between outnumbering, say, 2:1 and 3:1. And that more numerous side getting "easy victory" in 3:1 scenario doesn't mean they would win 2:1 too. How is it my failing (other than being unable to explain to you something that basic)?

[TheKomandorShepard]

If Evangeline may not have been the best but she would have had to have been quite powerful to be chosen as bodyguard for the Divine. Also why are you bringing up Cairn? He died when Saarebas shot a lightning bolt at him, hardly an excellent example of the power of Templars over mages.

 

What I got out of that note that I mentioned is that the Templars were able to dampen the magic but only collectively, note "there were enough of them", with the clear implication being that individually the Templars were only able to dampen the magic slightly. What I took away from that is that an average Templar can only dampen the magic of a mage, as in make it weaker but not outright nullify it.

 

If you'll recall the attack of the Templars in the White Spire they collectively used their powers to nullify, hence the mages become weaker "others were being overwhelmed, their mana disrupted until they couldn't cast a single spell". Hence it seems to me that the average Templar cannot completely drain a mage's mana and prevent them from casting, they can take a bit of mana and collectively they can take all of it. In fact Evangeline didn't seem to take all of Jeannot's power she only disrupted the spell - "as the blade struck him she channeled it forth...there was a bright flash as the mage's flow of mana was disrupted, his flames guttering to a halt" - he only turned to blood magic because it was more powerful and she could barely defend against it - "Evangeline felt the wave of force hitting her before she reached him. She attempted to raise her aura of protection, but the magic shattered it as if it were thin glass". 

 

Thus it seems to me that a single Templar is not able to render a mage powerless. They can disrupt spells if they get close (possibly if they strike the mage), they can dampen the magic and take away some mana but it's only because there are so many Templars that they are a threat, that is what I'm trying to convey here.

 

Also my previous point was about a perceived inconsistency. You seemed to claim that it was inconsistent that the Templar-Mage war wasn't shorter and that blood magic and abominations were not prevalent. I was stating that there is no inconsistency and that you shouldn't claim there is one because it doesn't fit into your idealised version of what Templars are. But if you didn't get it from my previous post I don't think i can explain it any better. 

 

Templars do have an advantage, they have greater numbers, military discipline and powers that can disrupt and weaken mages. However I do not see that meaning that they should crush mages within a few weeks. Templar powers have their limitations and mages are not weak, even when countered by Templars.

 

 

Templars have no effect on whether abominations form except possibly making them more likely to form out of fear and resentment. They're only there so it doesn't get loose onto the countryside and cause immense damage. Mages are the ones who make the decision whether to allow a demon to possess them, Templars have no influence over that. Your analogy about crime is not a valid one, crime is something you want to do since you often get something out of it (revenge, money etc.) becoming an abomination is not something mages want to do. 

 

Now if you mean whether the Templars prevent blood magic that is a different issue. It's possible they do. But that's assuming that many mages want to use blood magic in the first place. Nowhere is it stated in previous works that blood magic is something every mage desires. It is powerful yes, but many mages hate blood magic because of what the Chantry teaches. Indeed if the rebel mages started using blood magic who would support them? Blood magic has been shown to be something almost all of Thedas publicly denounces. Hence your rejection of the writers is both arrogant (assuming you know better than the writers who created the world of DA) and incorrect since there is no contradiction with their previous work. 

And what does that have to anything to do with things i have said?That she and meredith were powerful doesn't mean that other templars can't dispel or drain magic.It is like saying the warden casting lighting spell that only the warden level mage can cast it and everyone weaker can't.From what i remember caradin died because he thrown himself on lifhting to protect tallis not in fight before he was capable overpower him and turn his magic off mage is saved by his people.

 

Give link to that codex because i need context but as far that quote says nothing only there were many templars facing more than 1 mage and they were able dispel their  (more than one mage) magic what in fact may refer that there were enough templars to dispel spells of their all mages.

 

I can't remember anything about that being collective and averge templars can't do that in asunder.From what i remember mage was out after evangeline drined his mana and had use blood magic.And even if they need more templars to do that (what as far at best is only theory) and stands on "did you saw Anna ever singing no so thus she can't sing" ultimately what we pretty have much discussed was mage-templar war what mean a lot of templars.     

 

It is inconsistent i already have explained 1000 times why you can read about that pretty much in almost every my post here if you can't comprehend that even under templar watch we had many blood mages and an abomnations for various reasons even like fear or desperation and then you think if they are out of control templars number of abomnations and blood mages drops to zero when they don't have face terrible consequnces of beind blood mage or craking under pressure of war i pretty much can't use reason here because it is insane.  

 

Of course they have effect in first place they watch over mages so they won't become blood mages what greatly reduces number of abomnations as well punishing for dealing with demons , then they kill abomnations and prevent them from escaping and creating more abomnations.Also they prevent them from facing danger like thrask daughter what lead her to becoming an abomnation.

Hell sometimes templar in fact have negative effect and mage end as abomnation because of templar or should i say abuse faced caused by templar or in fact even being an apostate that turn into blood magic or/and end as an abomnation because templar hunted mage down what in fact only reinforces that there should be more abomnations as pretty much templar order decided to hunt down rebel mages with no mercy.  

 

Every response you give just proves that you fail to grasp the difference between outnumbering, say, 2:1 and 3:1. And that more numerous side getting "easy victory" in 3:1 scenario doesn't mean they would win 2:1 too. How is it my failing (other than being unable to explain to you something that basic)?

Not rly that is only how you see that in your head in fact you made up fact we don't know if kirkwall mages were ounumbered 2:1 ,3:1 or 10:1 all you have said they were outnumbered and that in fact we know they are largely outnumbered in this war i literally have pointed that mages have to face pretty much almost all templars from thedas when mages were divided not only on those who didn't want to fight and those who wanted...

[Lumix19]

And what does that have to anything to do with things i have said?That she and meredith were powerful doesn't mean that other templars can't dispel or drain magic.It is like saying the warden casting lighting spell that only the warden level mage can cast it and everyone weaker can't.From what i remember caradin died because he thrown himself on lifhting to protect tallis not in fight before he was capable overpower him and turn his magic off mage is saved by his people.
 
Give link to that codex because i need context but as far that quote says nothing only there were many templars facing more than 1 mage and they were able dispel their  (more than one mage) magic what in fact may refer that there were enough templars to dispel spells of their all mages.
 
I can't remember anything about that being collective and averge templars can't do that in asunder.From what i remember mage was out after evangeline drined his mana and had use blood magic.And even if they need more templars to do that (what as far at best is only theory) and stands on "did you saw Anna ever singing no so thus she can't sing" ultimately what we pretty have much discussed was mage-templar war what mean a lot of templars.     
 
It is inconsistent i already have explained 1000 times why you can read about that pretty much in almost every my post here if you can't comprehend that even under templar watch we had many blood mages and an abomnations for various reasons even like fear or desperation and then you think if they are out of control templars number of abomnations and blood mages drops to zero when they don't have face terrible consequnces of beind blood mage or craking under pressure of war i pretty much can't use reason here because it is insane.  
 
Of course they have effect in first place they watch over mages so they won't become blood mages what greatly reduces number of abomnations as well punishing for dealing with demons , then they kill abomnations and prevent them from escaping and creating more abomnations.Also they prevent them from facing danger like thrask daughter what lead her to becoming an abomnation.
Hell sometimes templar in fact have negative effect and mage end as abomnation because of templar or should i say abuse faced caused by templar or in fact even being an apostate that turn into blood magic or/and end as an abomnation because templar hunted mage down what in fact only reinforces that there should be more abomnations as pretty much templar order decided to hunt down rebel mages with no mercy.  
 

I'm sorry but your idea that the average Templar can completely shut off the magic of a mage without the aid of other Templars seems more theoretical in light of what I have presented. If Cairn truly could shut off a mage's magic single-handedly why didn't he shut of Saarebas'? Why did he have to die at all? Regardless I don't think I'm going to convince you and you probably aren't going to convince me so I'm done wasting energy. Thanks for the discussion, it hasn't been enlightening at all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm sorry but your idea that the average Templar can completely shut off the magic of a mage without the aid of other Templars seems more theoretical in light of what I have presented. If Cairn truly could shut off a mage's magic single-handedly why didn't he shut of Saarebas'? Why did he have to die at all? Regardless I don't think I'm going to convince you and you probably aren't going to convince me so I'm done wasting energy. Thanks for the discussion, it hasn't been enlightening at all.

And what you have presented a quote that says nothing about it and own theory that they can't because only most powerful templars can what is never stated from what i know nor in codex nor out-universe.

 

He already did before for that why he didn't do that or simple block spell with shield (what he could do as well) then don't know idiot ball or perhaps he couldn't in fact i don't know even know if i should use Redemption as example as it has lot plot holes