25 réponses à ce sujet

[Esthlos]

Could a Shepard that chose Control order all the reaper forces to self-terminate?

If so, it would be a very good alternative to Destroy if your Shepard wanted to kill off the Reapers but save EDI and the Geth, wouldn't it?

[God]

It might, but that'd be an awful waste. 

 

You need something that can protect the galaxy from itself. 

[SwobyJ]

You always give up something of yourself when you control others.

 

Shepalyst could send all the Reapers into a black hole... but he won't. Because that's not what he is, at least not anymore.

[God]

You always give up something of yourself when you control others.

 

Shepalyst could send all the Reapers into a black hole... but he won't. Because that's not what he is, at least not anymore.

 

Yeah. Why waste the Reapers? Why not put them to use?

[dreamgazer]

Could a Shepard that chose Control order all the reaper forces to self-terminate?

 

 

Doesn't look like it.  That slide goes to show that you lose agency over "Shepard" as you know him/her as soon as you grab the handles. 

 

Shepard might do so, but the Shepalyst doesn't.

[Kynare]

The Shepard AI is created with an assigned purpose specifically to control the Reapers, so I'm inclined to believe it wouldn't just off itself unless it has a good reason that acts in accordance to its moral code and is beneficial to all affected parties.

 

Edit: In terms of import vs imprint, I suppose this would just be in the case of an imprint

[Fixers0]

When first got to the ending I thought that control meant that Shepard's conciseness was directly uploaded to the catalyst, though I no idea how the hell that was supposed to work.

 

But if control is nothing more than an imprint of Shepard's personalty replacing the catalyst, then why did he/she need to be incinerated?

[Valmar]

When first got to the ending I thought that control meant that Shepard's conciseness was directly uploaded to the catalyst, though I no idea how the hell that was supposed to work.

 

But if control is nothing more than an imprint of Shepard's personalty replacing the catalyst, then why did he/she need to be incinerated?

 

I believe it is an import, not an imprint. Which is why the body is lost. The catalyst isn't even the first example of this being possible in the MEU.

 

Shepard just changed. If you had a billion years of knowledge, perspective and understanding suddenly slammed in your head... you'd probably be a bit different too. Though Shepard does, evidently, retain his original personality underneath it all. Hence why Paragon and Renegade control both have different Shepardlysts.

[ZerebusPrime]

At the very least, ShepReaper has Shepard's mind expanded into a Reaper consciousness.  His point of view has been hit by LSD times a billion plus a dash of power overwhelming.  I wouldn't associate human desires or logic to such a mind; self termination to end the harvest, or even ending the harvest cycle entirely, could both now lie outside of ShepReaper's serious considerations.

[Valmar]

I won't judge those who chose control. My Shepard doesn't but I'd be lying if I said I personally wouldn't be tempted by the idea of become some all-powerful immortal reaper god. That being said there is one piece of old human wisdom I'd like to leave here:

 

"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

 

Eternity is a long for corruption to seep in. I don't think any organic can resist corruption for that long. In the end, I imagine, Shepardlyst will either have to cast aside those organic connections to maintain focus or eventually be corrupted himself.

[GalacticWolf5]

I believe it is an import, not an imprint. Which is why the body is lost. The catalyst isn't even the first example of this being possible in the MEU.

Shepard just changed. If you had a billion years of knowledge, perspective and understanding suddenly slammed in your head... you'd probably be a bit different too. Though Shepard does, evidently, retain his original personality underneath it all. Hence why Paragon and Renegade control both have different Shepardlysts.

Exactly! A lot of people don't get that.

[JasonShepard]

Yes, I think Shepard takes 'complete' control. Yeah, that means I think the Commander could order the fleet to fly into a black hole. I feel there's a very good reason why Shep shouldn't though:

 

With great power comes great responsibility. (Yup, I'm quoting from the gospel of Uncle Benjamin...)

You have the entire fleet of Reapers at your command. They can repair the relays. They can ferry food, medicine and supplies to those who have been stranded by the war, saving hundreds of thousands of lives. They can provide scientific advancements by sharing the memories of previous cycles, improving the welfare of the entire galaxy.

 

Bluntly, I feel that it is irresponsible to throw away that much power once you have it.

 

But yes, of course you need to be careful how you use it. That's the 'great responsibility' part.

 

A few examples: Make sure you switch the indoctrination fields off. Don't use husks - organics really won't respond well to them. Once the relays are operational, ask the galaxy if they'll accept further help, and if they say "No", accept that and leave. Maybe go check that nothing nasty is waiting in Andromeda... That sort of thing

 

EDIT: I will say that it's responsible to fly the Reapers into a black hole if you honestly feel that they are too much of a threat to be kept around, even under Shepard's control. As Valmar pointed out, power does have a tendency to corrupt (I personally disagree that it *always* corrupts, however), and an immortal AI god is an exceedingly dangerous concept.

I still feel that there are more important things to do first, though. Repairing the relays tops that list.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Ha. You do not even have complete control over Shepard, let alone an epilogue.

[Valmar]

I find it perhaps too amusing that I view the control ending the same as two control-fans where as my Shepard is the very definition The Illusive Man used to describe Anderson: an old soldier, stuck in his ways, only able to view life down the barrel of a gun.

 

Control this, control that. New frameworks, peace and happiness. Blah blah blah. Shut up and die.

 

I'm unlikely to survive long enough to care about our created synthetics wiping us out anyway. Let our grandkids worry about that crap.

 

.... Huh. I just realized my Shepard was republican. Sometimes I surprise myself.

[Bardox9]

Could a Shepard that chose Control order all the reaper forces to self-terminate?

If so, it would be a very good alternative to Destroy if your Shepard wanted to kill off the Reapers but save EDI and the Geth, wouldn't it?

You have been indoctrinated...

[wright1978]

No, I don't think control's influence would enable it to make them self terminate.

[Mordokai]

I think it was von uber(apologies if I accredited it to the wrong forum member) that once said, taking control of Reapers and then sending them into the black hole/sun/star/whathaveyou is like having a cake and eating it. You simply can't do both.

 

I ascribe to that philosophy myself.

[Esthlos]

Thank you for the answers.

Another question: why does paragon Shepard (don't know about renegade) throw away Cerberus' experiments and data in Jack's loyalty mission and at Sanctuary?

Sure, the methods used to discover that data in the first place are very unethical, but now that we have it it could be used for the best for everyone... biotics fighting the Reapers might be made much more effective with the data from Jack's mission, and being able to disrupt the signal that guides Reaper forces, and maybe even being able to have them fight each other, would probably be the absolute best weapon the cycle gets to resist the Reapers... why shouldn't that data be saved and used?

[JasonShepard]

Is it ever stated that the data itself gets destroyed? There wasn't much of value at Pragia, but although Sanctuary was shut down, I'm sure Alliance techs were quickly sent there to find everything out... And hey, on one of the N7 missions, we're explicitly shown to be stealing Cerberus' indoctrination research.

[Esthlos]

Is it ever stated that the data itself gets destroyed? There wasn't much of value at Pragia, but although Sanctuary was shut down, I'm sure Alliance techs were quickly sent there to find everything out...

Well, when we get to Pragia we do find a few recordings... as far as I remember the krogan says that he didn't find anything of value, but I suspect that his definition of "something of value" wouldn't include scientifical data.

Didn't know about the Alliance sending techs to retrieve the data from Sanctuary.
 

And hey, on one of the N7 missions, we're explicitly shown to be stealing Cerberus' indoctrination research.

Are you referring to this one? http://masseffect.wi...7:_Cerberus_Lab

As far as I understood, that's pretty different... we steal that data way before knowing about Sanctuary, and it likely didn't include data from the research on Sanctuary.

[themikefest]

As far as I understood, that's pretty different... we steal that data way before knowing about Sanctuary, and it likely didn't include data from the research on Sanctuary.

Depending on the playthrough, that side mission can be completed after Sanctuary

[JasonShepard]

Well, when we get to Pragia we do find a few recordings... as far as I remember the krogan says that he didn't find anything of value, but I suspect that his definition of "something of value" wouldn't include scientifical data.

Didn't know about the Alliance sending techs to retrieve the data from Sanctuary.
 
Are you referring to this one? http://masseffect.wi...7:_Cerberus_Lab

As far as I understood, that's pretty different... we steal that data way before knowing about Sanctuary, and it likely didn't include data from the research on Sanctuary.

 

I'm guessing that techs would be sent to Sanctuary - it isn't stated in game that they are, but I see no reason why not, and I don't see the Sanctuary data being mindlessly purged either. As you say, its useful data - even if unethical. (Actually, I think the Hackett conversation post-Sanctuary touches on this.)

[Larry-3]

Assuming DIRECT control!

[Esthlos]

I'm guessing that techs would be sent to Sanctuary - it isn't stated in game that they are, but I see no reason why not, and I don't see the Sanctuary data being mindlessly purged either. As you say, its useful data - even if unethical. (Actually, I think the Hackett conversation post-Sanctuary touches on this.)

Good enough for me, thank you.

[SwobyJ]

I think the trend as the games continue is that Reaper technology will be researched, understood, and reverse engineered, if we're pressed to do so, but:

-letting Reaper-anything just lie out there without protection or precaution

-embracing Reaper technology without understanding how you could be controlled by it

..is bad.

 

What Shepard can decide, at times, is whether the measures taken were so unethical, and if Shepard's tie to those measures is too close, and if the tech is too dangerous, then it may be better to purge the technology instead.

This is a dilemma that many scientists face, but Shepard the Soldier being put in a similar enough place is something that is hard to consider him ready for. He isn't perfect, but he's trying.

 

In ME1 the agreement is that while we should accept technology, higher forms of technology crosses the line (unless it assists us in getting our job done, I guess). (though I'd say that the choices of ME1 are more about Alienness than Technology; Tech is more involved in the other two games)

 

In ME2 the agreement is that while we should embrace many other forms of higher technology, to get the job done, Reaper Tech is crossing the line (until the Collector Base makes it completely clear that Collector Tech is a variant of Reaper Tech --> thus the final choice). (On one hand, Collector Tech has been helping us/can help us beat the Collectors, but on the other, this Collector Base is proven to be part of Cerberus' successes and advancements in ME3)

 

In ME3 the agreement is that researching Reaper Tech may be necessary for the war, but we should go no further than that (until the Crucible construction and finally the ending makes it completely clear that Crucible Tech is a variant or at least involves Reaper Tech --> thus the final choice).

 

 

Control is a compromise. But seemingly, Shepard has fought enough and succeeded enough to this point, to be able to grip onto Power without losing his Self. At least, his Self as many players may see it (but many players may not).

He may not 'care' so much about the Reapers' 'survival', but he may care about the preservation of the galaxy, and the Reaper code involved may still maintain that as the most important thing. With Shepard's 'story'/'code' in play, there may a tempering enough of the more coldly synthetic elements of the Reapers and instead more of human-friendly approach, even if still distant.

 

But human-friendly doesn't mean human, or human-subjugated. The Reapers will continue to exist, and we can easily imagine complications from that. But we can also have hope that now the galaxy will be better equipped to handle these complications, without resorting to EITHER  war or harvest or assimilation or whatever.
Those who oppose this coexistence may find themselves in trouble, but it seems to imply less violence and death overall, compared to Destroy. The other way around for Destroy - those who want coexistence with synthetics may find themselves in trouble (aka less freedom of possibility, but more personal freedom from synthetics), and it seems more violence and death overall.

 

But it seems very unlikely that the Reapers will self-destroy, unless maybe hacked to do it. At the very least, in the supposed months to years or more, post-Control, there won't be anything of that sort. The Reapers are here (DANGER), but their threat is softened at least for the meantime and the galaxy is more easily and quickly rebuilt. And we have to decide whether Shepard is truly dead or not (ascended? evolved? returned?).